Is the Church doing more to retain active converts? And to reactivate the less-active?

[The Nehor]

3 hours ago, stemelbow said:

I think it obvious we have a bit of a problem on our hands.  It's been mentioned, I believe by the Brethren a few times over the years.  How do we keep new members?  I think temple work is an excellent idea.  Sometimes that spirit of Elijah catches people just right and gets them hooked.  But it's proven to not be for everyone, as a very tiny percentage in the Church actually participate.  \

My concern is our messaging and our vain missionary efforts.  We often go out telling people we are the best.  We are the happiest, the smartest, the bestest around.  I think that appeals to some, but when they join and see there's nothing special, they quickly leave.  And why shouldn't they?  We should accept that we are the least in the world.  There is none better than another.  We are not more happy.  We might even be a little more troubled, if there is truth to our message.  We should probably be meekly serving others rather than boldly proclaiming they are wrong, whatever that means.  Our message would resonate far more and people would feel far more compelled to stay.  Forget legalistic step taking and move to open embracement and love. 

But I speak to empty ears when I bring this up, it seems. 

If you do not find anything special in our faith then you are doing it wrong.

[stemelbow]

36 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

If you do not find anything special in our faith then you are doing it wrong.

I'm not saying there's nothing special.  What keeps me is the hope for an explosion of our religion's potential, as much as anything.

[Calm]

Flameburn, in the early 1900s, they tended to invest a lot of time teaching individuals if there was any interest.  Think it was in the 50s they switched to the set lesson number/early baptism challenges and this change was based on a study of the differences between those converts who maintained a long, high activity rate and those who didn't.  What was found was the desire to commit at a deep level occurred in the first few lessons through their experience of the Spirit.  If it didn't happen then, it rarely happened later.  This is discussed in the David O Mckay bio by Prince and another guy whose name I always forget.

From what I have seen over the years the Church uses studies to seek out the best ways to help the conversion and retention issues from both sides.  I suspect many of the failures of these programs occurred because active members didn't follow through enough so the ideal is to come up witha program that can be individualized enough for a location (whatworks to get members excited in a low density area may not in a high density and the reverse), provides multiple ways to contribute (not every member feels comfortable contributing in the same way), and allows for varied responses from potential investigators.

 I think with higher numbers of senior couples who both went on missions themselves; higher numbers of members who experience the more indepth teaching approach that is being integrated in the CES teaching; the anticipated expanded use of the Gospel Topics for personal study (quick start, imo, but may have slowed down for other programs to catch up); the expanded access to professional quality work in history not only for the JSP, but now other areas including a huge effort in women's history; the emphasis on helping new members and youth experience some of the unique spiritual benefits of our faith as well as opening greater understanding to one of our fundamental purposes to tie all of us into a community that truly sees itself as the family of God by getting early involvement in temple work; and finally the exploration of what benefit technology can be in the community, both for reaching out and for support and learning...I think if we can manage to blend all these avenues together in a way that allows individuals to make use of what is most helpful for them, conversion (including of those already baptized) and retention rates will greatly improve...at least for those who are able to deal with the initial shock of criticism of the faith they will likely encounter and especially antimormon efforts that are so prevalent in the technology these days.  I do think having missionaries who have been trained in seminary and CES to be aware of issues and who have worked through them theirselves will be the key to helping more past the initial confrontation so that they are willing to take the time to examine the faith for themselves and that may end up being a blessing in the long run as they will know they have received answers that worked for them before, so why not have faith there will be answers again.

[mfbukowski]

7 minutes ago, Calm said:

Flameburn, in the early 1900s, they tended to invest a lot of time teaching individuals if there was any interest.  Think it was in the 50s they switched to the set lesson number/early baptism challenges and this change was based on a study of the differences between those converts who maintained a long, high activity rate and those who didn't.  What was found was the desire to commit at a deep level occurred in the first few lessons through their experience of the Spirit.  If it didn't happen then, it rarely happened later.  This is discussed in the David O Mckay bio by Prince and another guy whose name I always forget.

From what I have seen over the years the Church uses studies to seek out the best ways to help the conversion and retention issues from both sides.  I suspect many of the failures of these programs occurred because active members didn't follow through enough so the ideal is to come up witha program that can be individualized enough for a location (whatworks to get members excited in a low density area may not in a high density and the reverse), provides multiple ways to contribute (not every member feels comfortable contributing in the same way), and allows for varied responses from potential investigators.

 I think with higher numbers of senior couples who both went on missions themselves; higher numbers of members who experience the more indepth teaching approach that is being integrated in the CES teaching; the anticipated expanded use of the Gospel Topics for personal study (quick start, imo, but may have slowed down for other programs to catch up); the expanded access to professional quality work in history not only for the JSP, but now other areas including a huge effort in women's history; the emphasis on helping new members and youth experience some of the unique spiritual benefits of our faith as well as opening greater understanding to one of our fundamental purposes to tie all of us into a community that truly sees itself as the family of God by getting early involvement in temple work; and finally the exploration of what benefit technology can be in the community, both for reaching out and for support and learning...I think if we can manage to blend all these avenues together in a way that allows individuals to make use of what is most helpful for them, conversion (including of those already baptized) and retention rates will greatly improve...at least for those who are able to deal with the initial shock of criticism of the faith they will likely encounter and especially antimormon efforts that are so prevalent in the technology these days.  I do think having missionaries who have been trained in seminary and CES to be aware of issues and who have worked through them theirselves will be the key to helping more past the initial confrontation so that they are willing to take the time to examine the faith for themselves and that may end up being a blessing in the long run as they will know they have received answers that worked for them before, so why not have faith there will be answers again.

I honestly think that some get it and some don't.  Those that really get it are few in number.

No, I do not think that those who get it are the "elect", necessarily.  That would make it all a form of predestination to believe that.  I think there are human flaws in the way the gospel is preached and taught, and the paradigms we teach that appeal to some and do not appeal to others.  I think we have the best possible model for visualizing our Father, who's full nature is "actually" much more than humans can possibly understand, so the gospel we know "dumbs it down" for us.  I think it is the best possible approximation we can come up with .  I think God is our father in ways we do not understand, and what we know in the church gets it as close as humans can handle it generally speaking.

On the other hand, some will like the approximation and some will not.  Those that like it stay, those that don't ,don't.  They choose other approximations, or none at all.

On the other side, those who do not like the approximation will get an opportunity to re-evaluate the description they understand to be "true" with more information available, and then we will all be judged on our ability to find the "truth" with a very thick veil hiding God's true nature, and a thinner veil on the other side.

God wants his children back, and he is our only judge.  We do the best we can with the scarce information we receive, and leave it in his hands.

[Scott Lloyd]

10 hours ago, flameburns623 said:

Mr. Lloyd: the system has a glitch, or else a limitation has been placed on my account, impeding my ability to PM you.

I am unable to identify a means via the link you provided, to view printed transcripts.

I am not in a position to review audio files. Is there something I am missing?

Thanks!

My PM box is probably full, which would account for your inability to contact me. I'm afraid I neglect to keep it cleared out.

I mistakenly thought the "Downlod" buttons on the Worldwide Missionary Broadcast page would yield printed transcripts. I now see that they only provide a way to download the video. If you are unable to watch or download the videos, I'm afraid I'm at a loss as to what to advise you to do.

At the Church News, we did provide news coverage of the broadcast. I'll try to find some links now. Not as good as a full recording or transcript, I realize, but better than nothing.

https://www.lds.org/church/news/leaders-instruct-missionaries-during-video-segments-of-worldwide-broadcast?lang=eng

https://www.lds.org/church/news/focus-on-the-doctrine-of-christ-elder-andersen-tells-missionaries-worldwide?lang=eng

https://www.lds.org/church/news/repentance-and-baptism-are-focus-of-missionary-work-elder-oaks-says?lang=eng

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/865645885/Bishop-W-Christopher-Waddell-talks-at-Worldwide-Missionary-Broadcast-We-invite-they-commit-we.html?pg=all

 

Edited March 16, 2016 by Scott Lloyd

[Duncan]

Just now, Scott Lloyd said:

My PM box is probably full, which would account for your inability to contact me. I'm afraid I neglect to keep it cleared out.

I mistakenly thought the "Downlod" buttons on the Worldwide Missionary Broadcast page would yield printed transcripts. I now see that the only provide a way to download the video. If you are unable to watch or download the videos, I'm afraid I'm at a loss as to what to advise you to do.

At the Church News, we did provide news coverage of the broadcast. I'll try to find some links now. Not as good as a full recording or transcript, I realize, but better than nothing.

https://www.lds.org/church/news/leaders-instruct-missionaries-during-video-segments-of-worldwide-broadcast?lang=eng

https://www.lds.org/church/news/focus-on-the-doctrine-of-christ-elder-andersen-tells-missionaries-worldwide?lang=eng

https://www.lds.org/church/news/repentance-and-baptism-are-focus-of-missionary-work-elder-oaks-says?lang=eng

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/865645885/Bishop-W-Christopher-Waddell-talks-at-Worldwide-Missionary-Broadcast-We-invite-they-commit-we.html?pg=all

 

just as an aside this is everything I wish I knew when I was a missionary!

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, stemelbow said:

I'm not saying there's nothing special.  What keeps me is the hope for an explosion of our religion's potential, as much as anything.

Search for the explosion within.

[ksfisher]

2 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

 

I mistakenly thought the "Downlod" buttons on the Worldwide Missionary Broadcast page would yield printed transcripts. I now see that they only provide a way to download the video. If you are unable to watch or download the videos, I'm afraid I'm at a loss as to what to advise you to do.

 

I don't know about this one specifically, but I used to have a transcript of a World Wide Leadership Training Meeting which I lost.  When I went to print it again I found that the transcript option was no longer there, only the video.  Frustrating at times.

[Gray]

18 hours ago, VideoGameJunkie said:

I've noticed recently that missionaries, especially the sisters, are spending more time on member retention than finding new converts. Could just be an area thing, while they do the converting in places with high baptism numbers like South America.

I've noticed the same thing in my area

[flameburns623]

5 hours ago, Calm said:

Flameburn, in the early 1900s, they tended to invest a lot of time teaching individuals if there was any interest.  Think it was in the 50s they switched to the set lesson number/early baptism challenges and this change was based on a study of the differences between those converts who maintained a long, high activity rate and those who didn't.  What was found was the desire to commit at a deep level occurred in the first few lessons through their experience of the Spirit.  If it didn't happen then, it rarely happened later.  This is discussed in the David O Mckay bio by Prince and another guy whose name I always forget . . . 

 

Prince? From "When Doves Cry"? He's writing about LDS leaders now? Wondered what he was up to.

Seriously, not to bust any bubbles, but that's not the Spirit motivaing so many people to suddenly want to join Mormonism after a few lessons and interactions with Missionaries and/or the Church.

That's an endorphin response. Vacuum cleaner salesmen and used car dealers count on the same reaction. It's a fairly predictable neurobiological response to certain kinds of social stimuli.

And it wears off in a relatively predictable way, leading to high levels of buyer's remorse. Or Church inactivity.

The early 20th Century system was more conducive to stable long-term commitments. The David McKay system is good for churning high numbers, but cannot provide stability.

[Dgal]

20 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

It works fabulously, if the get to do baptisms within 3 months of joining the church and take some of their own ancestors names to the temple.

They get to attend the temple and feel the strong spirit there, as well as finding out more about their families and "turning their hearts" to their families and seeing families as a "forever" institution

The whole objective is to tie them to their families and in turn help them communicate with their relatives about the beliefs of the church.

https://www.lds.org/ensign/2009/10/temple-worship-a-contagious-fire?lang=eng

We are now having meetings between the Ward Mission Leader and High Priest Group Leader and making sure that all converts are instructed enough in family history to submit some names for baptism- and this has been found to work very well everywhere it has been tried.

Thanks for the insight, Mf.

[Calm]

2 hours ago, flameburns623 said:

 

And it wears off in a relatively predictable way, leading to high levels of buyer's remorse. Or Church inactivity.

Except that it didn't.  That experience that was interpreted as feeling the Spirit by faithful LDS converts whatever you perceive it to be was the crucial difference for those who chose to stay longterm active LDS, those who didn't experience it were generally the ones who became inactive even if they were for some reason converted later on.  It was those who converted on the high in your terms that had staying power, contrary to your expectations.

Greg Prince btw.

 

[Calm]

It was also contrary to common sense, imo.  You would think people who took longer to decide, to continue studying, to be sure of their commitment would be more likely to be the ones who would stay active, but it wasn't so for that time period.  I don't know ifsuch still continues, but I wouldn't be surprised.

[Hamba Tuhan]

My personal opinion as my ward's current mission leader: the Church has given us everything we need to retain converts and restore the less-active. The only question is if we are engaged in doing it. In our ward, many are, and the fruits are obvious. I wish more were, but often it's easier to spend time on the internet instead of going and doing something.

Edited March 17, 2016 by Hamba Tuhan

[Duncan]

Sometimes you can only do so much for people. The missionaries baptized a lady about a month or so ago and she came twice but they haven't had any contact with her since. The elders think she has gone back to smoking and feels guilty and won't have any contact with anyone. What to do? These situations occur frequently

[saemo]

22 hours ago, flameburns623 said:

There is wide variability in how well religious groups retain adult converts.

Catholics and most Eastern Orthodox put adult catechumens through a process which takes upwards of a year. Their retention rates, last I looked, were very very good at the one-year and five-year markers. Notable because the RCC in particular does somewhat poorly in keeping its birthright membership. 

And these are churches which are heavily stratified and professionalised, where volunteer opportunities for ordinary congregants is limited.

Interestingly, the Antiochian Rite of Orthodoxy, a Westernised and Americanized variant, has accelerated reception of converts with Christian backgrounds from other churches: instead of taking a year or more, they often take three months or less. Their dropout rate is higher than normal in other Orthodox jurisdictions.

Jehovah's Witnesses also take six months or longer to receive members. Their retention rates are also good, although this may be skewed by thr harsh discipline imposed upon defectors.

By contrast, " Evangelism Crusades" (think of Billy Graham), are notoriously unlikely to effect permanent discipleship.

I have no idea how well the LDS retention ratea compare/contrast with those of other groups. But it does look as if taking a little time can be one piece of the puzzle.

FWIW, the year long catechumenate is for non-Christians. Christians entering into full communion with the RCC vary in time, but is usually 3 months to a year.  For converts to Christianity there is a year for deepening faith and conversion after baptism called mystagogy. The newly baptized are called neophytes. It is generally recommended by the RCC that neophytes do not serve in ministries (volunteer) during this year. For our parish, where many of the newly baptized come from Mormonism, we encourage volunteering for ministries, even before baptism.  It is an acknowledgement of a cultural thing, where people want and expect to be involved in ministries from the get-go. 

Edited March 17, 2016 by saemo

[Hamba Tuhan]

2 hours ago, Duncan said:

Sometimes you can only do so much for people. The missionaries baptized a lady about a month or so ago and she came twice but they haven't had any contact with her since. The elders think she has gone back to smoking and feels guilty and won't have any contact with anyone. What to do? These situations occur frequently

And here's your first problem: 'The missionaries baptized a lady'... Missionary work belongs to the ward and not to the missionaries. The missionaries don't 'baptise' anybody in our ward. Even if the missionaries make first contact, we make sure that all subsequent contact is initiated by ward members.

[sunstoned]

The missionaries haven't baptized anyone over 9 years old in our ward for over three years.  I am wondering what the missionaries are doing, because their efforts are not producing results in the way of new converts.

[flameburns623]

28 minutes ago, saemo said:

FWIW, the year long catechumenate is for non-Christians. Christians entering into full communion with the RCC vary in time, but is usually 3 months to a year.  For converts to Christianity there is a year for deepening faith and conversion after baptism called mystagogy. The newly baptized are called neophytes. It is generally recommended by the RCC that neophytes do not serve in ministries (volunteer) during this year. For our parish, where many of the newly baptized come from Mormonism, we encourage volunteering for ministries, even before baptism.  It is an acknowledgement of a cultural thing, where people want and expect to be involved in ministries from the get-go. 

RCIA (Rite of Christian Initiation of Adults) in my area starts in August and continues thru May or June, with actual reception (baptism or confirmation) of converts taking place during the Easter season, and with an "after-care" period of about 60 days.

Classes here are usually sizeable, but made up mainly of nominal Christians from other churches. Anywhere from twenty to thirty enrollees: most of them significant others of Catholics.

Some are longtine lapsed Catholics, as I was in 2008, some are converting for reasons other than prospective marriage.

Here in the midwest it would be extraordinary to have more than the very rare convert from a wholly non-Christian background.

The priests and teachers do say that once class members have been received (baptised or confirmed), there is a big fall-off of attendance during that six week follw-up part of RCIA. Folks tend to blow off the "neophyte" thing: Catholic is Catholic, once one is fully admitted to sacraments.

But most enrollees in RCIA are in the program at least nine months, and it is designed to run nearly eleven months in my area.

[Duncan]

24 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

And here's your first problem: 'The missionaries baptized a lady'... Missionary work belongs to the ward and not to the missionaries. The missionaries don't 'baptise' anybody in our ward. Even if the missionaries make first contact, we make sure that all subsequent contact is initiated by ward members.

Neither the ward missionaries, home or visiting teachers have made any contact with her but maybe she'll come on sunday? I told the elders you don't want to annoy her or anything but just do what you can

[saemo]

22 minutes ago, flameburns623 said:

RCIA (Rite of Christian Initiation of Adults) in my area starts in August and continues thru May or June, with actual reception (baptism or confirmation) of converts taking place during the Easter season, and with an "after-care" period of about 60 days.

Classes here are usually sizeable, but made up mainly of nominal Christians from other churches. Anywhere from twenty to thirty enrollees: most of them significant others of Catholics.

Some are longtine lapsed Catholics, as I was in 2008, some are converting for reasons other than prospective marriage.

Here in the midwest it would be extraordinary to have more than the very rare convert from a wholly non-Christian background.

The priests and teachers do say that once class members have been received (baptised or confirmed), there is a big fall-off of attendance during that six week follw-up part of RCIA. Folks tend to blow off the "neophyte" thing: Catholic is Catholic, once one is fully admitted to sacraments.

But most enrollees in RCIA are in the program at least nine months, and it is designed to run nearly eleven months in my area.

Yeah RCIA is implemented in different ways. Our former Bishop wanted all parishes to follow the USCCB guidelines of having a year long catechumenate. The smaller rural parishes have not changed from the school year calendar. They just don't have the resources (people). There is also a tendency in these parts to view summer school break as a break from ministries. Incredulous exclamations that participation is expected even when school is out! And yes, Utah and some parts of Idaho are very unique, in having a majority of converts who come from a non-Christian background. But I hear large metropolitan areas in the US are experiencing greater numbers coming from non-Christian religions and secularism  

Retention is mixed and I think largely unknown. Anecdotely I'd say half stick around for their first five years. After five years half of those taper off.  So, after the five to ten year mark, a fourth are still practicing Catholics. I think for the same reasons that you list for converts to Mormonism. The shine wears off, daily life doesn't change, the bills still have to be paid and whatever issues may have masked for a time in a religious high, are still affecting the person profoundly. One or two converts in our parish every year convert for a spouse, never to be seen again at Mass after their baptism. 

Edited March 17, 2016 by saemo

[flameburns623]

4 hours ago, Duncan said:

Sometimes you can only do so much for people. The missionaries baptized a lady about a month or so ago and she came twice but they haven't had any contact with her since. The elders think she has gone back to smoking and feels guilty and won't have any contact with anyone. What to do? These situations occur frequently

You can start by making sure Missionaries know what addiction really is: tobacco, regular significant alcohol use, most other recreational drugs, and probably compulsive overeating all effect brain and body.

Those changes are largely permanent. They create a perceived dependency that will stay with an addict. Sometimes medications can help with addictions, sometimes not. Sometimes counseling helps. Sometimes underlying causes which steered someone towards addiction need to be identified.

The vast majority of folks who have become addicted will struggle with impulses to return to their addiction for life: your convert should have been told this, and resources for recovery referenced. 

And in view of what addiction is, a balance needs to be arrived at between the need to uphold standards and the struggles a member will have to live up to such standards.

Most fat people are at least partly "to blame" for their obesity: they're gluttons. An element of their condition is willful, or was willful at some point in their lives. But now that they have crossed a line: their agency has become to some degree circumscribed.

They are no longer as fully in control of their behavior as God intended they should be. And it will take them a long time to regain even a measure of that agency back.

Well-publicised research came out in the past few years showing that most people who lose 5% of their weight will regain that weight in 12 months. 98% of dieters will be heavier in five years than they are at the start of a nonsurgical diet program. It takes incredible concentration and willpower for that 2% of successful losers to stay trim

And yet I doubt that many gluttonous LDS converts go inactive because they've started after the chocolate-chip cookies again. In fact, it's probably been awhile since most wards and branches have assigned a talk on gluttony. But I guarantee most Mormons have heard talks eschewing coffee, tea, alcohol based on D&C 89.

The Word of Wisdom is a good distinctive of the LDS Gospel, and it's standards shouldn't be watered down or compromised.

But how it is taught and communicated may need to be tweaked, if you are losing members to inactivity because they feel judged unloved if they cannot always live up to the standard.

I do agree with you that people will come and go and this can't always be helped.

But I am suggesting that 70% to 90% inactivity rates within five years of joining (I think those are the kinds of numbers bandied about in some of the articles I saw before opening this thread) are way too high.  

I was part of those statistics, twice. I'm glad to hear that the General Authorities and the Church are taking some steps to rein those numbers back.

 

 

[The Nehor]

2 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

And here's your first problem: 'The missionaries baptized a lady'... Missionary work belongs to the ward and not to the missionaries. The missionaries don't 'baptise' anybody in our ward. Even if the missionaries make first contact, we make sure that all subsequent contact is initiated by ward members.

Nope. The Missionaries operate under the keys of Missionary work. The wards help but it belongs to the missionaries.

[Hamba Tuhan]

4 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Nope. The Missionaries operate under the keys of Missionary work. The wards help but it belongs to the missionaries.

From Handbook 2:

Quote

Member missionary work is most effective when ward council members are fully engaged in the missionary effort. In quorums and auxiliaries, they encourage members to participate in missionary work in the following ways:

1. Find and prepare people to be taught.

2. Assist the missionaries when they teach (in members’ homes, if possible).

3. Fellowship investigators.

4. Prepare themselves and their children to serve as full-time missionaries.

In ward council meetings, members of the council develop and review the ward mission plan (see 5.1.8). They review baptismal candidates, other investigators, and other matters from the Progress Record prepared by the full-time missionaries. They make plans to help each investigator progress.

From Pres. Eyring:

Quote

The bishop and his ward council discuss every progressing investigator. They decide what they can do for each person and their families to help them become friends before baptism, to include them in activities, and to nurture those who are baptized.

From the section on lds.org concerning hastening the work of salvation:

Quote

Under the direction of the bishop, ward council members fully engage to help each investigator and new or returning member progress.

I also recommend all of chapter 13 from Preach My Gospel, paying particular attention to each time it says that the 'priesthood executive committee and ward council' should be doing something.

I'm not talking about who holds the keys to authorise a convert baptism, but the absolute easiest way to lose new members is to let missionary work be a specialty that belongs to the full-time missionaries. In our ward, the missionaries don't 'baptise' anyone; the whole ward does. We don't go on splits with our missionaries; they come on splits with us. Literally. Tonight we went on six-way splits with our Elders and Sisters, and in each case the member had arranged the teaching appointment.

We've averaged one convert baptism (all adults) every three weeks so far this year. They're all active and growing in faith and happiness.

Edited March 17, 2016 by Hamba Tuhan

[stemelbow]

20 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Search for the explosion within.

Already did.