Let's just say the Angel with a drawn sword story is true

[Teancum]

1 hour ago, JLHPROF said:

So what does it look like when God does this to one of his children?
Are you saying #3 was implied in D&C 132?
#2 could easily mean damnation.
#4 & #5 also seem appropriate in context.

Emma was threatened with destruction for rejecting God's law.  There are many interpretations of destruction as you have just shown.  And damnation falls into that category in my opinion - #2 on your list being the closest.

 

Virgin can have many meanings and you know it.
Scripturally and etymologically it doesn't have to mean unmarried or never had sex.

It seems to me you need to strain at simple words and redefine them so they are not as shattering to your world view as the simple definitions should be.

[T-Shirt]

2 hours ago, ALarson said:

Do you a quote from Emma to support this?  (I'm sincere as I'd love to read what you've seen that caused you to believe this.)   It's obvious that she couldn't fully embrace it (or embrace it much at all, IMO), but I really doubt that she had a testimony of plural marriage.

We don't have much from Emma herself, most reports are from other people, however:

First, evidence supports that she believed her husband was a prophet until she died.

Second, We know that she was present at, at least, four of Joseph's sealings and probably six.

Third, sometime after the sealing of the Lawrence sisters, after she became angry again and withdrew her support, she and Joseph had a tearful meeting together where some agreements were reached.  One of these agreements was that Joseph would not be sealed to any more women without Emma knowing about it.

 Fourth, I think the document she wrote just before Joseph went to Carthage to turn himself in, strongly suggests that she believed her husband, but needed the help of the Lord to stay faithful.  The document is the result of her asking Joseph for a blessing before he left for Carthage and Joseph, trusting her, asked her to write her own blessing and he would sign it.  Here is the text of the document:

 

Quote

 

First of all that I would crave as the richest of heaven’s blessings would be wisdom from my Heavenly Father bestowed daily, so that whatever I might do or say, I could not look back at the close of the day with regret, nor neglect the performance of any act that would bring a blessing. I desire the Spirit of God to know and understand myself, that I desire a fruitful, active mind, that I may be able to comprehend the designs of God, when revealed through his servants without doubting. I desire the spirit of discernment, which is one of the promised blessings of the Holy Ghost.

I particularly desire wisdom to bring up all the children that are, or may be committed to my charge, in such a manner that they will be useful ornaments in the Kingdom of God, and in a coming day arise up and call me blessed.

I desire prudence that I may not through ambition abuse my body and cause it to become old and care-worn, but that I may wear a cheerful countenance, live to perform all the work that I covenanted to perform in the spirit-world and be a blessing to all who may in any wise need aught at my hands.

I desire with all my heart to honor and respect my husband as my head, ever to live in his confidence and by acting in unison with him retain the place which God has given me by his side, and I ask my Heavenly Father, that through humility, I may be enabled to overcome that curse which was pronounced on the daughters of Eve. I desire to see that I may rejoice with them in the blessings which God has in store for all who are willing to be obedient to his requirements. Finally, I desire that whatever may be my lot through life I may be enabled to acknowledge the hand of God in all things

 

 

Edited March 30, 2016 by T-Shirt

[JLHPROF]

1 hour ago, Teancum said:

It seems to me you need to strain at simple words and redefine them so they are not as shattering to your world view as the simple definitions should be.

Then it would seem to you wrong.
Personally, I have no problem with anything in D&C 132 or Joseph's polygamous life.  I am not bothered by what is commonly termed polyandry, by the ages of Joseph's wives, by God sending an angel with a final warning, by the way Joseph dealt with Emma, by the lack of children produced, by the term virgin, or ANY other aspect.

I even have no problem with taking the warning to Emma of potential destruction at literal face value.
Because I have a testimony of Joseph, the restored gospel, and all that entails, including polygamy.  Nothing about Mormonism troubles me so nothing needs explaining.
My doubts are more about myself, not about the gospel.

But it gives others so much doubt that if there is any possible view other than the literal that would help them come to terms with events I think a little bit of reasoning goes a long way.  My world view is not the one in danger of being shattered.

[JulieM]

2 hours ago, USU78 said:

If you don't believe JSJr was a prophet, that's fine.  Nothing requires you to believe he was a prophet, or that Abraham was an actual person, or that G-d exists.

HOWEVER, if JSJr was a prophet, it should be unsurprising he and we might be commanded/compelled to undertake awful trials, like polygyny, where, sometimes, no ram is found except in death.  A ram was found for Vilate Kimball.  None but JSJr's death released poor Joseph and Emma.

Prophets make mistakes too.  I believe Joseph Smith was a prophet but was mistaken to live or teach polygamy.

Do you believe everything ever taught by past prophets?  Such as the Adam God doctrine taught by Brigham Young?

[JLHPROF]

6 minutes ago, JulieM said:

Do you believe everything ever taught by past prophets?  Such as the Adam God doctrine taught by Brigham Young?

...maybe not EVERYTHING

Edited March 30, 2016 by JLHPROF

[JulieM]

39 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

...maybe not EVERYTHING

Actually I think you come close to believing every teaching from past Prophets.

I've read enough of your posts on the forum to know that you do believe in the Adam God doctrine taught by Brigham Young.  

• I would like to hear USU's views though.

Edited March 30, 2016 by JulieM

[JulieM]

1 hour ago, T-Shirt said:

We don't have much from Emma herself, most reports are from other people, however:

First, evidence supports that she believed her husband was a prophet until she died.

Second, We know that she was present at, at least, four of Joseph's sealings and probably six.

Third, sometime after the sealing of the Lawrence sisters, after she became angry again and withdrew her support, she and Joseph had a tearful meeting together where some agreements were reached.  One of these agreements was that Joseph would not be sealed to any more women without Emma knowing about it.

 Fourth, I think the document she wrote just before Joseph went to Carthage to turn himself in, strongly suggests that she believed her husband, but needed the help of the Lord to stay faithful.  The document is the result of her asking Joseph for a blessing before he left for Carthage and Joseph, trusting her, asked her to write her own blessing and he would sign it.  Here is the text of the document:

 

 

Emma denied that Joseph lived polygamy and lied to everyone including her and Joseph's children about their own father's teachings on the principle and denied that he had any plural wives.

If she'd had a testimony of plural marriage, she would have continued teaching it instead of lying about it and denying it.  She seemed ashamed of it rather than believing it came from God. 

That she loved Joseph and believed he was a Prophet is something I believe is true.  However, even she would have known he wasn't perfect and made mistakes.  I see nothing in her writings above showing that she supported or had a testimony of polygamy.  

Edited March 30, 2016 by JulieM

[JulieM]

2 hours ago, T-Shirt said:

Second, We know that she was present at, at least, four of Joseph's sealings and probably six.

Can you give the names of the 6 plural wives where Emma was possibly present for the sealings?  

I remember reading that she was at 2 but would like to know who the others were.  Thank you!

Edited March 30, 2016 by JulieM

[Stargazer]

On 3/27/2016 at 3:20 PM, VideoGameJunkie said:

My largest question on the issue of polygamy that I wish someone could at least hint at to answer is if polygamy is ever coming back. Like is it coming back during the Millennium or afterlife. I heard some people believe this but I'd like to know what sources say that it would come back and why people would think that.

Of course it is coming back.  It never really left.  Whether it will be practiced during the Millennium or not, I can't say, but it wouldn't surprise me.

As for the afterlife, a good friend of mine had a wife to whom he was sealed in the temple.  They had five kids and then she died of cancer.  He remarried (to a sister his late wife had recommended in fact) and was sealed to his new wife.  They had a further four or five kids.  Now, which one does he give up in eternity?  What part of "eternal marriage" do you not get?  

I could have sworn you told me once that I should be sealed to my new wife who had been previously sealed to her first husband (as I had been to my first wife), so it seems that you understood the principle of multiple wives in the eternity, but then you ask questions like this.  I am perplexed. 

[Stargazer]

1 hour ago, JulieM said:

Prophets make mistakes too.  I believe Joseph Smith was a prophet but was mistaken to live or teach polygamy.

Do you believe everything ever taught by past prophets?  Such as the Adam God doctrine taught by Brigham Young?

You've never read D&C 132?  Or you have read it and you don't believe it was a true revelation from God?  Or you have read somewhere in the Old or New Testament that indicated that plural marriage was a sin?  You couldn't have, because nowhere does the Lord do a single thing to oppose his prophets and patriarchs from having multiple wives.  He even told King David through Nathan the prophet that He had given him all those wives he had had, and if that hadn't been enough He would have given him more!  Yet David got in trouble, not for having more than one wife, but for murdering a woman's husband so he could have her (after first committing adultery with her).  There is no evidence whatsoever that God is opposed to polygamy or plural marriage, and plenty of evidence that He permits and even sometimes commands it.  In exactly one place in the Book of Mormon there is a passage which seems to be opposed, but it is very equivocal, and is worded so as to strongly imply that it's OK when God commands it, otherwise not.  Which is congruent with modern LDS doctrine, by the way.

But I do understand the principle of rejecting doctrine that one is personally uncomfortable with.  

As for the Adam-God Doctrine, nobody knows what President Young meant by what he said about it, and he never explained it.  So maybe it is a true doctrine, that we just don't hold to.  

Edited March 30, 2016 by Stargazer

[VideoGameJunkie]

37 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

Of course it is coming back.  It never really left.  Whether it will be practiced during the Millennium or not, I can't say, but it wouldn't surprise me.

As for the afterlife, a good friend of mine had a wife to whom he was sealed in the temple.  They had five kids and then she died of cancer.  He remarried (to a sister his late wife had recommended in fact) and was sealed to his new wife.  They had a further four or five kids.  Now, which one does he give up in eternity?  What part of "eternal marriage" do you not get?  

I could have sworn you told me once that I should be sealed to my new wife who had been previously sealed to her first husband (as I had been to my first wife), so it seems that you understood the principle of multiple wives in the eternity, but then you ask questions like this.  I am perplexed. 

I know it's going to exist for those who were sealed to 2 women or more in this life, like when a first wife dies. I know that. But what I'm asking is if people who only married once in this life, or didn't marry at all during this life, but want a marriage will be practicing it in the eternities. Like I know Russell M Nelson, Dallin H Oaks, and Howard W Hunter will be with multiple wives in heaven, but I'm asking if people like Thomas S Monson and Gordon B Hinckley, who only married 1 wife in this life, will have the chance to take on multiple wives in the eternities. Or those who never got the chance to marry in this life, but were promised that they would have the marriage sealing fulfilled eventually during the eternities. My question and confusion are about the people who don't get sealed to multiple women during this life.

[Stargazer]

15 minutes ago, VideoGameJunkie said:

I know it's going to exist for those who were sealed to 2 women or more in this life, like when a first wife dies. I know that. But what I'm asking is if people who only married once in this life, or didn't marry at all during this life, but want a marriage will be practicing it in the eternities. Like I know Russell M Nelson, Dallin H Oaks, and Howard W Hunter will be with multiple wives in heaven, but I'm asking if people like Thomas S Monson and Gordon B Hinckley, who only married 1 wife in this life, will have the chance to take on multiple wives in the eternities. Or those who never got the chance to marry in this life, but were promised that they would have the marriage sealing fulfilled eventually during the eternities. My question and confusion are about the people who don't get sealed to multiple women during this life.

I apologize!  I must have a very short fuse this evening.

If the Lord's words in the New Testament were reported correctly, all questions of marriage must be settled before the resurrection, because He said that in the Resurrection there is neither marrying nor giving in marriage.  I presume that this means all such questions will be decided upon either in mortality or in the Spirit World.  I trust that what the Lord has promised He will make real.  However He does this may or may not be evident now, but He is a god of Mercy and Truth.  I trust in that.

[T-Shirt]

1 hour ago, JulieM said:

Can you give the names of the 6 plural wives where Emma was possibly present for the sealings?  

I remember reading that she was at 2 but would like to know who the others were.  Thank you!

Eliza and Emily Partridge

Sarah and Maria Lawrence

Malissa Lott

Ruth Vose Sayers

[VideoGameJunkie]

Quote

 

The it-all-gets-sorted-out-in-the-afterlife answer isn’t very satisfying to me.

[Calm]

I feel the urge to write "get used to dissapointment".

[Stargazer]

45 minutes ago, VideoGameJunkie said:

The it-all-gets-sorted-out-in-the-afterlife answer isn’t very satisfying to me.

Well, LOL, what do you expect?  That someone here on earth has all the answers, and all you have to do is find him (or her) and ask?  Best pack a lunch, for it will be a long hunt!

Paul is famous for having written that we see through a glass, darkly.  We are left here to wander by faith, and most of the time we don't see the end from the beginning.  I remember most vividly being assured that God knew why He put me on earth, and that He had specific things he wanted me to do.  There came a time when I wondered what those things were, and I went and I asked Him.  After considerable prayerful effort I was told to just keep doing what I was supposed to be doing, and over time He would direct me to do those things that He wanted me to do!  In other words, He would lead me in the paths He wanted me to take, and if I were faithful (meaning "full of faith") and non-doubting, I would be directed in doing His will.  We don't know the end from the beginning, but we are left to discover it, in the classic phrase, "line upon line, precept upon precept".

There is no other way.  You aren't going to find the secret lever that reveals everything to you, so that you have knowledge of everything.  If that isn't sufficient to you, then as Calm wrote: "get used to disappointment."  

You're in your early or mid twenties, as I recall.  I am in my mid sixties.  I used to be as young as you, and I used to be as inexperienced as you.  It gets better, I can tell you from personal experience, but only if you trust in the Lord and don't get hung up leaning on your own understanding!  There are plenty of maturer members and former members on this board who have forgotten that, and gone off in pathways that lead nowhere.  All because they expected to understand everything with their meat-minds, and when something didn't jibe with their meat-minds, instead of trusting the Lord and showing forth faith, they got lost wanting to have their own way!  I could name them, but I don't think I need to.  They make themselves known very clearly by their postings.

Don't fall into that great trap of thinking you know the mind and will of the Lord, until the Lord reveals Himself to you, step by step.  

Everything DOES get sorted out in the afterlife.  That which is incomplete here becomes complete in the LORD'S DUE TIME.  Not yours.  This is largely because we are in a place where perfection is virtually impossible.  And only One of us ever managed to achieve that lofty goal.  And if we follow Him, in faith without wavering, eventually all will be made perfect in us.

That's all there is to it.

[Stargazer]

56 minutes ago, Calm said:

I feel the urge to write "get used to dissapointment".

A quote from "The Princess Bride" is very often appropriate!

[cdowis]

4 hours ago, VideoGameJunkie said:

The it-all-gets-sorted-out-in-the-afterlife answer isn’t very satisfying to me.

Of course.  
We all must learn to live with it, OR to spiritually self-destruct. 

Edited March 30, 2016 by cdowis

[USU78]

6 hours ago, VideoGameJunkie said:

The it-all-gets-sorted-out-in-the-afterlife answer isn’t very satisfying to me.

Is that Job's wife talking? 

[JulieM]

8 hours ago, T-Shirt said:

Eliza and Emily Partridge

Sarah and Maria Lawrence

Malissa Lott

Ruth Vose Sayers

Thank you.  I knew about the Lawrence's, but not Lott or Sayers.

But you're not correct about the Partridges.  Emma was not present for the actual marriage or sealing of them to Joseph.

Who performed the sealing for Joseph and Sayers?  

[ALarson]

14 hours ago, USU78 said:

If you don't believe JSJr was a prophet, that's fine. 

I never said that.  I simply believe he was the one who instigated polygamy, not God.  

Do you believe Prophets are fallible?  If you do, then you believe they make mistakes and are wrong sometimes.  I believe this was one of the times that Joseph was wrong and was acting as a man, not as a Prophet.

Edited March 30, 2016 by ALarson

[ALarson]

12 hours ago, T-Shirt said:

We don't have much from Emma herself, most reports are from other people, however:

First, evidence supports that she believed her husband was a prophet until she died.

Second, We know that she was present at, at least, four of Joseph's sealings and probably six.

Third, sometime after the sealing of the Lawrence sisters, after she became angry again and withdrew her support, she and Joseph had a tearful meeting together where some agreements were reached.  One of these agreements was that Joseph would not be sealed to any more women without Emma knowing about it.

 Fourth, I think the document she wrote just before Joseph went to Carthage to turn himself in, strongly suggests that she believed her husband, but needed the help of the Lord to stay faithful.  The document is the result of her asking Joseph for a blessing before he left for Carthage and Joseph, trusting her, asked her to write her own blessing and he would sign it.  Here is the text of the document:

 

 

None of that means she had a testimony of plural marriage.  I do believe that she had a deep love for Joseph.  That is why she suffered so much regarding him being with other women and him doing much of it behind her back caused her a great deal of pain.  The blessing she wrote out is very moving and I love reading it.

Her being at 4 sealings is not evidence that she had a testimony of polygamy either (4 out of approximately 33 or more means she was not present for the great majority of them).  She wanted to be sealed to Joseph,  He had already been sealed to 25 other women before she was sealed to him as she had accept the principle, so she did temporarily and was sealed to him.

But, as has already been pointed out, her behavior after Joseph's death is strong evidence that she did not support of believe in the principle.  She even lied to Joseph's children about it and I believe she denied it until her death.  If she had a testimony of it and believed it was right, it seems she would have wanted her children to know about it and understand why their Father lived it.  Instead she lied to them and denied it.

IMO, Emma did not have a testimony of plural marriage, she despised it and lied about it after Joseph's death.

 

Edited March 30, 2016 by ALarson

[ALarson]

10 hours ago, Stargazer said:

As for the afterlife, a good friend of mine had a wife to whom he was sealed in the temple.  They had five kids and then she died of cancer.  He remarried (to a sister his late wife had recommended in fact) and was sealed to his new wife.  They had a further four or five kids.  Now, which one does he give up in eternity?

Well, the women have a choice and a say in this too and it's not all up to what the man wants.  He may not have a choice whether to "give up" one of them or keep both of them since they both may not want to be with him after this life or live polygamy for eternity.

.

Edited March 30, 2016 by ALarson

[ALarson]

10 hours ago, Stargazer said:

As for the Adam-God Doctrine, nobody knows what President Young meant by what he said about it, and he never explained it.  So maybe it is a true doctrine, that we just don't hold to.  

Oh I wouldn't say that "nobody knows what President Young meant".  I believe he made things perfectly clear (as he usually did).  You're right that it's doctrine we no long "hold to" though.

[USU78]

33 minutes ago, ALarson said:

I never said that.  I simply believe he was the one who instigated polygamy, not God.  

Do you believe Prophets are fallible?  If you do, then you believe they make mistakes and are wrong sometimes.  I believe this was one of the times that Joseph was wrong and was acting as a man, not as a Prophet.

You are ignoring the suffering aspects of a prophet's life.  And all our lives.  You think Isaiah liked running around naked and barefoot for 3 years?  Whenever I read about something inexplicable like that  ...  or polygyny  ...  or Mt Moriah  ...  I try to look at it from the perspective of the person compelled/commanded.  Think of Brigham and the passing-by hearse whose occupant he envied.

That it is inexplicable doesn't make it more likely that it is not of G-d.  Indeed, the fact that it's impossibly hard on the one compelled/commanded ought to make us all pause and reflect.  G-d always repeat always tries the souls of the righteous.

You think JSJr made it all up because why?  It's weird?  Icky?  Uncomfortable?  Caused its practitioners to suffer?

Quote

Life is pain, Highness.  Anyone who says different is selling something.