ALarson Posted March 30, 2016 Posted March 30, 2016 6 minutes ago, USU78 said: You are ignoring the suffering aspects of a prophet's life. And all our lives. Yes, we all suffer during our lifetimes. However, that has nothing to do with believing or not believing that polygamy came from God or from man. But, continue using this as evidence that it came from God if you want. It's a horribly weak argument though, IMO.
USU78 Posted March 30, 2016 Posted March 30, 2016 12 minutes ago, ALarson said: Yes, we all suffer during our lifetimes. However, that has nothing to do with believing or not believing that polygamy came from God or from man. But, continue using this as evidence that it came from God if you want. It's a horribly weak argument though, IMO. Certainly no less weak than "men are horndogs; JSJr is a man; therefore, JSJr is a horndog who made up polygyny to get a little."
ALarson Posted March 30, 2016 Posted March 30, 2016 (edited) 12 minutes ago, USU78 said: Certainly no less weak than "men are horndogs; JSJr is a man; therefore, JSJr is a horndog who made up polygyny to get a little." Oh, I don't know. I think that's a very strong argument that it came from man and not from God (But, I've never used those words....) . Edited March 30, 2016 by ALarson
ALarson Posted March 30, 2016 Posted March 30, 2016 (edited) 12 hours ago, JulieM said: Actually I think you come close to believing every teaching from past Prophets. I've read enough of your posts on the forum to know that you do believe in the Adam God doctrine taught by Brigham Young. I would like to hear USU's views though. Don't count on it, (but maybe he'll answer eventually), USU78 seems to tuck and run when difficult questions are asked or evidence is supplied that contradicts his opinions (at least that's the M.O. I've seen with his postings over several threads). But yes, JLHPROF's feelings and beliefs regarding the Adam/God teachings are a very interesting discussion and he's been clear as to what his beliefs are on this topic. . Edited March 30, 2016 by ALarson
JLHPROF Posted March 30, 2016 Posted March 30, 2016 1 hour ago, ALarson said: I never said that. I simply believe he was the one who instigated polygamy, not God. The flaw in this logic is that to say Joseph's polygamy was completely unauthorized by God (ie, made up by him) is to make him nothing more than an adulterer, starting as far back as the 1830's. I don't believe for one second that God would allow the man holding the highest priesthood office on the earth, speaking on behalf of God, to be an adulterer. If Joseph was guilty of making up polygamy then any revelation following that first unrepented adulterous act would be not only called into doubt, but almost certainly false. If Joseph committed adultery with Fanny Alger do you really believe that Christ would appear to him in the Kirtland Temple shortly after, that Moses, Noah, and Elijah would have given him further priesthood keys, that the most sacred of ordinances - the temple endowment and second anointings would be revealed and bestowed upon him? No, if Joseph made up polygamy, then all of Mormonism restored after early Kirtland was a sham and not from God. 2
ALarson Posted March 30, 2016 Posted March 30, 2016 (edited) 13 minutes ago, JLHPROF said: The flaw in this logic is that to say Joseph's polygamy was completely unauthorized by God (ie, made up by him) is to make him nothing more than an adulterer, starting as far back as the 1830's. I don't believe for one second that God would allow the man holding the highest priesthood office on the earth, speaking on behalf of God, to be an adulterer. If Joseph was guilty of making up polygamy then any revelation following that first unrepented adulterous act would be not only called into doubt, but almost certainly false. If Joseph committed adultery with Fanny Alger do you really believe that Christ would appear to him in the Kirtland Temple shortly after, that Moses, Noah, and Elijah would have given him further priesthood keys, that the most sacred of ordinances - the temple endowment and second anointings would be revealed and bestowed upon him? No, if Joseph made up polygamy, then all of Mormonism restored after early Kirtland was a sham and not from God. I see why you'd feel that way, but I disagree. Joseph did commit adultery. And one could argue that God did remove him from being the Prophet (or do you believe how he was living polygamy did not partially enter into his murder?). Maybe there was still many things that God needed him to do before he removed him and He allowed the polygamy (just as God allowed it at time in Biblical times). I believe it was not commanded back then (other than as a part of some Levirate marriages) just as I believe that Joseph was not commanded to live polygamy). If Joseph instigated and lived polygamy without being commanded to do so, it doesn't necessarily follow that everything else he did from Kirtland on wasn't inspired or essential to be restored from God. This argument is just as reasonable as yours above. We simply do not know which one of is right here. All we can do, is read and study all the information available and come to our own conclusions. But, I do believe that Joseph was a Prophet. He was flawed like any other humans though and was not infallible. . Edited March 30, 2016 by ALarson
USU78 Posted March 30, 2016 Posted March 30, 2016 21 minutes ago, ALarson said: Oh, I don't know. I think that's a very strong argument that it came from man and not from God (But, I've never used those words....) So ... your argument is "because I think so" or what?
JLHPROF Posted March 30, 2016 Posted March 30, 2016 1 minute ago, ALarson said: I see why you'd feel that way, but I disagree. Joseph did commit adultery. And one could argue that God did remove him from being the Prophet. Maybe there was still many things that God needed him to do before he removed him and He allowed the polygamy (just as God allowed it at time in Biblical times). I believe it was not commanded back then (other than as a part of some Levirate marriages just as I believe that Joseph was not commanded to live polygamy). That would make God a liar. D&C 121:37 D&C 42:24-26 D&C 63:16 No, if Joseph actually committed adultery after being called, he was no longer a prophet of God and any subsequent revelations would be necessarily false. God would have called another. Also, you make the notion that "one could argue that God did remove him from being the Prophet." Well, God didn't do a very good job if his next prophet was an even bigger adulterer. 1
ALarson Posted March 30, 2016 Posted March 30, 2016 1 minute ago, JLHPROF said: That would make God a liar. D&C 121:37 D&C 42:24-26 D&C 63:16 No, if Joseph actually committed adultery after being called, he was no longer a prophet of God and any subsequent revelations would be necessarily false. God would have called another. Also, you make the notion that "one could argue that God did remove him from being the Prophet." Well, God didn't do a very good job if his next prophet was an even bigger adulterer. He did commit adultery
JLHPROF Posted March 30, 2016 Posted March 30, 2016 3 minutes ago, ALarson said: He did commit adultery No. He didn't.
USU78 Posted March 30, 2016 Posted March 30, 2016 16 minutes ago, ALarson said: Don't count on it, (but maybe he'll answer eventually), USU78 seems to tuck and run when difficult questions are asked or evidence is supplied that contradicts his opinions (at least that's the M.O. I've seen with his postings over several threads). Or, perhaps, I have a life and don't see every post that may be relevant to a discussion. On the other hand: Quote Friendship makes prosperity more shining and lessens adversity by dividing and sharing it. --> Marcus Tullius Cicero
USU78 Posted March 30, 2016 Posted March 30, 2016 12 hours ago, JulieM said: Actually I think you come close to believing every teaching from past Prophets. I've read enough of your posts on the forum to know that you do believe in the Adam God doctrine taught by Brigham Young. I would like to hear USU's views though. On what?
ALarson Posted March 30, 2016 Posted March 30, 2016 4 minutes ago, JLHPROF said: No. He didn't. He did unless you change the definition of adultery or you believe he was legally married to all the women he had relations with while he was legally married to Emma. 1
USU78 Posted March 30, 2016 Posted March 30, 2016 (edited) 22 minutes ago, ALarson said: IJoseph did commit adultery. Horse pucky. Hey! Argumentam ad Nauseum is funner than I thought! Edited March 30, 2016 by USU78 Can't spell
JLHPROF Posted March 30, 2016 Posted March 30, 2016 2 minutes ago, ALarson said: He did unless you change the definition of adultery or you believe he was legally married to all the women he had relations with while he was legally married to Emma. I don't define adultery. God does. And only marriages God ordains matter. 2
ALarson Posted March 30, 2016 Posted March 30, 2016 (edited) 20 minutes ago, USU78 said: So ... your argument is "because I think so" or what? What. (Or read what I've actually posted here.) . Edited March 30, 2016 by ALarson 1
ALarson Posted March 30, 2016 Posted March 30, 2016 7 minutes ago, USU78 said: Or, perhaps, I have a life and don't see every post that may be relevant to a discussion. From what I've seen in the discussion I've been involved with you, you regularly dodge the difficult questions or evidence. But if you feel otherwise, carry on....
USU78 Posted March 30, 2016 Posted March 30, 2016 1 minute ago, ALarson said: What. Methinks this discussion has run out of juice. Whaddya think?
ALarson Posted March 30, 2016 Posted March 30, 2016 (edited) 9 minutes ago, USU78 said: Horse pucky. Hey! Argumentam ad Nauseum is funner than I thought! So you don't believe that Joseph had relations with women he was not legally married to while he was legally married to Emma? Or do you believe in a different definition for "adultery". It has to be one or the other. Technically, Joseph committed adultery. What do you believe the definition for adultery is? . Edited March 30, 2016 by ALarson 1
ALarson Posted March 30, 2016 Posted March 30, 2016 2 minutes ago, USU78 said: Methinks this discussion has run out of juice. Whaddya think? Yes, time to tuck and run... 1
ALarson Posted March 30, 2016 Posted March 30, 2016 (edited) 17 minutes ago, JLHPROF said: I don't define adultery. God does. And only marriages God ordains matter. So, you do use a different definition for what the word "adultery" means. Then it follows that the verses you gave reference to above, would also use that same definition, correct? If that's what you believe, then wouldn't Joseph be fine either way (whether God just allowed polygamy that was instigated by Joseph or He commanded it)? I know you believe this, JLHPROF. You also know I disagree. I respect your right to believe what you do. We're not going to persuade each other to change our minds, but I do enjoy reading your posts and opinions. Edited March 30, 2016 by ALarson 1
JulieM Posted March 30, 2016 Posted March 30, 2016 The Adam God doctrine. (That's in response to the quote above.)
Gray Posted March 30, 2016 Posted March 30, 2016 22 minutes ago, ALarson said: So, you do use a different definition for what the word "adultery" means. Then it follows that the verses you gave reference to above, would also use that same definition, correct? If that's what you believe, then wouldn't Joseph be fine either way (whether God just allowed polygamy that was instigated by Joseph or He commanded it)? I know you believe this, JLHPROF. You also know I disagree. I respect your right to believe what you do. We're not going to persuade each other to change our minds, but I do enjoy reading your posts and opinions. JLHPROF is a good egg. Always agreeable even when very much disagreeing with me. 1
Tacenda Posted March 30, 2016 Posted March 30, 2016 21 minutes ago, JLHPROF said: That would make God a liar. D&C 121:37 D&C 42:24-26 D&C 63:16 No, if Joseph actually committed adultery after being called, he was no longer a prophet of God and any subsequent revelations would be necessarily false. God would have called another. Also, you make the notion that "one could argue that God did remove him from being the Prophet." Well, God didn't do a very good job if his next prophet was an even bigger adulterer. https://bible.org/illustration/god-can-use-us-all But, I feel that just as King David in the Bible was punished for adultery and even murder, Joseph Smith was punished with his eventual death and the death of his beloved brother Hyrum. In his last days Joseph wouldn't wear his garments, and also he purportedly said polygamy was wrong. 1
Recommended Posts