JLHPROF Posted March 22, 2016 Posted March 22, 2016 1 hour ago, ALarson said: Thanks, that's interesting (I've read what Joseph and Brigham stated and don't really find it convincing). As we know the parable of the talents can be interpreted to mean many different things. Did either of them interpret the parable of the virgins to be about polygamy, do you know? I have not found any interpretation of the parable of any kind by either (other than the usual admonition to prepare ourselves). Which verses in D&C 132 discuss the parables? Or do you mean the entire section? I sincerely would like to hear your interpretation and thoughts. Or if you have a link you can post to read about this.The similarities between the parable of the virgins and verses 61-63 are pretty clear. Regardless of whether you believe the source of D&C 132 is God or Joseph, it is clear that the same symbolism is being drawn upon. (Which given the interpretation of the parable may not refer to actual "virgins" but to those preparing to join with the bridegroom). Do you believe that Christ was the groom in the parable of the 10 virgins or just that it is a parable about polygamy in general?I believe the standard interpretation of the parable to be valid and Christ to be the groom. I also believe Christ had no issue with the bridegroom having 10 potential brides for a reason - he both accepted and lived polygamy. Christ used symbols that would be familiar to those he was speaking to. That is in all his parables. Polygamy while not practiced by a majority still existed in his day (although it declined thanks to the Romans). I do appreciate that you at least try to come up with a source and I enjoy a discussion with you. But, even if the parables are about polygamy, I can see nowhere that states within them that it was a principle of Christ's gospel that was essential for exaltation. Everyone will not even be required or forced to live polygamy in the Celestial Kingdom, IMO.What Christ did and didn't teach aside, I know you and many believe that about exaltation. I also do not believe everyone will be required or forced to live polygamy, or to be married, or to have children. But it will impact their exaltation and eventual glory. Agency still exists. But those who live higher laws are worthy of higher exaltation. It has always been so. No force required, just an application of D&C 130.
ALarson Posted March 22, 2016 Posted March 22, 2016 (edited) 18 minutes ago, JLHPROF said: (Quote function is being weird....) As always, thanks for your thoughts and input. I really do enjoy reading your perspective!! One question though, is it truly the "standard interpretation" (just by Mormons or by all Christians???) to believe the parable of the 10 virgins is that Christ is the bridegroom and the virgins are the brides? If so, I had not realized that or read this elsewhere.... . Edited March 22, 2016 by ALarson
Teancum Posted March 23, 2016 Posted March 23, 2016 22 hours ago, cdowis said: It gets worse. We do not appeal to theologians and philosophers who mingle the Bible text with their philosophies, who craft doctrine based on whether a particular verb is in the imperfect or in the aorist tense. Indeed, the question of whether the Bible is complete or even inerrant is moot, until you have an inerrant interpretation of the Bible. Sorry. No need to apologize to me. I don't hold the Bible to be inerrant. In fact I think a good portion of it is mythical. So who has an inerrant interpretation of the Bible?
JLHPROF Posted March 23, 2016 Posted March 23, 2016 8 minutes ago, Teancum said: So who has an inerrant interpretation of the Bible? Well this guy named Joseph Smith seemed to get pretty much everything right. 1
cdowis Posted March 23, 2016 Posted March 23, 2016 3 hours ago, Teancum said: So who has an inerrant interpretation of the Bible? Now that is a question for those who claim that the doctrines of the church contradict the Bible. Perhaps you could ask them. 1
ALarson Posted March 23, 2016 Posted March 23, 2016 16 hours ago, consiglieri said: No, Joseph Smith did not make up plural marriage out of whole cloth. In fact, there is evidence he adopted the practice of plural marriage from some of the followers of Jacob Cochran, who after being converted by Mormon missionaries, moved to Kirtland, Ohio to join the saints. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origin_of_Latter_Day_Saint_polygamy Well, the timing here fits. It's interesting to study them (Cochranites) and the similarities. Of course it's no secret here, that I believe the practice of polygamy did not come from God, but from man. So, Joseph could have easily gotten the idea from exposure to the followers of Jacob Cochran, IMO. 1
JLHPROF Posted March 23, 2016 Posted March 23, 2016 8 minutes ago, ALarson said: Well, the timing here fits. It's interesting to study them (Cochranites) and the similarities. Of course it's no secret here, that I believe the practice of polygamy did not come from God, but from man. So, Joseph could have easily gotten the idea from exposure to the followers of Jacob Cochran, IMO. Fairmormon has a good page showing why Joseph DIDN'T get polygamy from the Cochranites. It's just another red herring.
ALarson Posted March 23, 2016 Posted March 23, 2016 (edited) 15 minutes ago, JLHPROF said: Fairmormon has a good page showing why Joseph DIDN'T get polygamy from the Cochranites. It's just another red herring. I'll read it. But, I do believe it's possible given the association early church members had with the Cochranites and the timing of things regarding polygamy. I believe that Joseph most likely came up with living polygamy on his own and from his own reading. But, it's an interesting theory regarding the Cochranites. We did send missionaries there and some of them joined our church (I believe one of Brigham Young's wives was a former Cochranite). They did practice spiritual wifery (iirc) too. We really can't know for sure if this had any influence with Joseph or not. Since there are no statements one way or the other (that I know of), we simply don't know. There are also the New Israelites that practiced spiritual wifery and had an association with early church members' family. They are an interesting study too. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Israelites Edited March 23, 2016 by ALarson
JLHPROF Posted March 23, 2016 Posted March 23, 2016 9 minutes ago, ALarson said: I'll read it. But, I do believe it's possible given the association early church members had with the Cochranites and the timing of things regarding polygamy. I believe that Joseph most likely came up with living polygamy on his own and from his own reading. But, it's an interesting theory regarding the Cochranites. We did sent missionaries there and some of them joined our church (I believe one of Brigham Young's wives was a former Cochranite). They did practice spiritual wifery (iirc) too. We really can't know for sure if this had any influence with Joseph or not. Since there are no statements one way or the other (that I know of), we simply don't know. There are also the New Israelites that practiced spiritual wifery and had an association with early church members' family. They are an interesting study too. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Israelites http://en.fairmormon.org/Joseph_Smith/Polygamy/Cochraniteshttp://rationalfaiths.com/10620/
ALarson Posted March 23, 2016 Posted March 23, 2016 (edited) 12 minutes ago, JLHPROF said: http://en.fairmormon.org/Joseph_Smith/Polygamy/Cochraniteshttp://rationalfaiths.com/10620/ Thanks for the links. I have read some of this and found nothing conclusive regarding the possibility that there was an influence from the association of early church members and the Cochranites. We simply cannot know. But we can study what's available and come to our own conclusions. I'm not sure what I believe here, but I do believe it was a possible influence. I certainly don't believe it's the only one though. Early church members definitely crossed paths with Cochranites and missionaries were sent to preach to them, and some joined the church. That much we do know. I believe that Joseph's beliefs and practices (regarding polygamy) evolved over time, so who's to really know if the Cochranites' teachings and practices regarding spiritual wifery had any influence on him? Here's some info (from wiki...so I'd need to confirm it, but it's interesting): Quote Latter Day Saint historical sources indicate that as early as 1832, Mormon missionaries were converting followers of religious leader Jacob Cochran, who went into hiding in 1830 to escape imprisonment for practicing polygamy. Mormons held two conferences at Saco, Maine, the center of Cochranism, on June 13, 1834,[37] and August 21, 1835. At the latter conference, at least seven of the twelve newly-ordained Mormon apostles were in attendance,[38][39][40] including Brigham Young. Young became acquainted with Cochran's followers as he made several missionary journeys through Cochranite territory from Boston to Saco,[41] and later married Augusta Adams Cobb, a former Cochranite, as one of his plural wives.[42][43] Others who spent time among the Cochranites were Orson Hyde and Smith's younger brother, Samuel.[44] Among Cochran's marital innovations was "spiritual wifery". Ridlon wrote in 1895, "tradition assumes that [Cochran] received frequent consignments of spiritual consorts, and that such were invariably the most robust and attractive women in the community."[45] Some new Cochranites remained polygamists, and moved from the east coast to the Mormon community of Kirtland, Ohio.[46] Rumors of Mormon polygamy began to become public, enough to be denied in Mormon publications[47][48][49] and mentioned in Mormon scripture in 1835, which noted: “ "Inasmuch as this Church of Christ has been reproached with the crime of fornication and polygamy, we declare that we believe that one man should have one wife, and one woman but one husband, except in the case of death, when either is at liberty to marry again." Edited March 23, 2016 by ALarson
VideoGameJunkie Posted March 23, 2016 Author Posted March 23, 2016 The biggest consequence with polygamy would be that there wouldn't be enough women to go around for all the men who want wives. That's a problem many young men face in the FLDS and have to result to marrying their cousins.
JLHPROF Posted March 23, 2016 Posted March 23, 2016 2 minutes ago, VideoGameJunkie said: The biggest consequence with polygamy would be that there wouldn't be enough women to go around for all the men who want wives. That's a problem many young men face in the FLDS and have to result to marrying their cousins. That is not necessarily true. It presupposes an exact 1:1 population, and more than that, an exact 1:1 of worthy males to worthy females. Population demographics may support this, but membership demographics are more debatable.
VideoGameJunkie Posted March 23, 2016 Author Posted March 23, 2016 1 minute ago, JLHPROF said: That is not necessarily true. It presupposes an exact 1:1 population, and more than that, an exact 1:1 of worthy males to worthy females. Population demographics may support this, but membership demographics are more debatable. Does membership demographics show more females than males?
JLHPROF Posted March 23, 2016 Posted March 23, 2016 19 minutes ago, VideoGameJunkie said: Does membership demographics show more females than males? Depends on which study you quote, who you believe, and how you measure membership. If you were to look at ACTIVE members in the US only just as an example that might answer your question. But then I'm sure somebody would produce reasons why that ratio is wrong.
Jeanne Posted March 23, 2016 Posted March 23, 2016 6 hours ago, ALarson said: Well, the timing here fits. It's interesting to study them (Cochranites) and the similarities. Of course it's no secret here, that I believe the practice of polygamy did not come from God, but from man. So, Joseph could have easily gotten the idea from exposure to the followers of Jacob Cochran, IMO. Bingo! 1
VideoGameJunkie Posted March 23, 2016 Author Posted March 23, 2016 I'll admit something crazy and might explain why I like polygamy threads so much. Deep down I want polygamy to come back during the Millennium and deep down I want to live polygamy in the Celestial Kingdom. Will that happen, no one knows but a deep part of me wants to experience it. Who knows maybe it's because I'm single that I can think about it, but that's just how my mind is working. So I'm a fan of the practice in the eternities and want to participate myself if Heavenly Father allows it and approves.
Teancum Posted March 23, 2016 Posted March 23, 2016 17 hours ago, cdowis said: Now that is a question for those who claim that the doctrines of the church contradict the Bible. Perhaps you could ask them. That really is a non answer. 1
cdowis Posted March 23, 2016 Posted March 23, 2016 2 minutes ago, Teancum said: That really is a non answer. Yep, this is exactly my experience when I ask the Bible-only sectarians the same question. They are silent.
cdowis Posted March 23, 2016 Posted March 23, 2016 15 minutes ago, VideoGameJunkie said: I'll admit something crazy and might explain why I like polygamy threads so much. Deep down I want polygamy to come back during the Millennium and deep down I want to live polygamy in the Celestial Kingdom. Will that happen, no one knows but a deep part of me wants to experience it. Who knows maybe it's because I'm single that I can think about it, but that's just how my mind is working. So I'm a fan of the practice in the eternities and want to participate myself if Heavenly Father allows it and approves. If you are also a priesthood holder, you have a serious issue if you are waiting to get married after you die. Polygamy will not solve your problem.
Teancum Posted March 23, 2016 Posted March 23, 2016 2 minutes ago, cdowis said: Yep, this is exactly my experience when I ask the Bible-only sectarians the same question. They are silent. I hardly think and evangelical who knows their stuff is silent. I have been in this game long enough to know differently. 1
VideoGameJunkie Posted March 23, 2016 Author Posted March 23, 2016 5 minutes ago, cdowis said: If you are also a priesthood holder, you have a serious issue if you are waiting to get married after you die. Polygamy will not solve your problem. That's a misunderstanding. I'm not waiting to get married I just haven't found anyone yet to marry me. What I meant was since I'm single I don't have anyone who I would hurt if I thought about eternal polygamy. And I wanted to say anything I've said that came across as anti polygamy on this board is just my jealousy of those who lived it. That's how I show jealousy.
Teancum Posted March 23, 2016 Posted March 23, 2016 (edited) On 3/21/2016 at 5:03 AM, Stargazer said: You don't get it, Scott Lloyd! It is upon DEAD prophets we must rely! Especially when we don't like what the LIVING prophets have to say. Get your principles straight, man! No me. I trust no Prophets. Dead or living. Self proclaimed prophets should be held in suspect. Why would God expect us to trust so few that give conflicting messages? Just talk to us all directly and not through some metaphysical approach. Edited March 23, 2016 by Teancum
Teancum Posted March 23, 2016 Posted March 23, 2016 20 hours ago, JLHPROF said: Well this guy named Joseph Smith seemed to get pretty much everything right. Uhhh nope not likely......
cdowis Posted March 23, 2016 Posted March 23, 2016 (edited) 1 hour ago, Teancum said: I hardly think and evangelical who knows their stuff is silent. I have been in this game long enough to know differently. OK, so please don't be shy -->> YOU tell us the answer. Where exactly are they getting the inerrant interpretation of the Bible. I would very much like to meet this individual. Is the Pope aware of this individual -- how about Billy Graham. Why is this person hiding???? Christians desperately need this person's help in resolving their disagreements on how to interpret the Bible. We want to draw upon your direct experience, since, in my 30 years in apologetics, they were unwilling to share this information with me. The Christian world is awaiting your answer. This forebodes the total collapse of the Mormon church and its prophets. Edited March 24, 2016 by cdowis
Teancum Posted March 24, 2016 Posted March 24, 2016 2 hours ago, cdowis said: OK, so please don't be shy -->> YOU tell us the answer. Where exactly are they getting the inerrant interpretation of the Bible. I would very much like to meet this individual. Is the Pope aware of this individual -- how about Billy Graham. Why is this person hiding???? Christians desperately need this person's help in resolving their disagreements on how to interpret the Bible. We want to draw upon your direct experience, since, in my 30 years in apologetics, they were unwilling to share this information with me. The Christian world is awaiting your answer. This forebodes the total collapse of the Mormon church and its prophets. Given what I have stated my views are on this your post above it nothing but an incoherent rant. my only point is your arrogant assumption that you have an upmanship somehow on those who are biblical innerantists and that Mormonism somehow has the correct interpretation is a weak and a priori assumption. Carry on.... 1
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