Let's just say the Angel with a drawn sword story is true

[JLHPROF]

2 hours ago, Keq82 said:

Any way you slice it, polygamy is a disgusting practice and NOT from God.  Joseph Smith used the threat of damnation as a justification to engage in this abhorrent practice.  

That's your opinion, not fact.
And God is the one who warned of damnation, not Joseph.

[Keq82]

13 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

That's your opinion, not fact.
And God is the one who warned of damnation, not Joseph.

You don't think polygamy is disgusting?  Please expound on the holiness associated with polygamy.  Enlighten us all!  It only caused unseeded pain and suffering.  If we are all entitled to revelation, then an angel with a frozen battle ax just told me that polygamy is absolute garbage and should be avoided!  Amen. 

[JLHPROF]

8 hours ago, Keq82 said:

You don't think polygamy is disgusting?  Please expound on the holiness associated with polygamy.  Enlighten us all!  It only caused unseeded pain and suffering.  If we are all entitled to revelation, then an angel with a frozen battle ax just told me that polygamy is absolute garbage and should be avoided!  Amen. 

I'd love to think your "amen" means you're done, but I doubt it.

I am not going to debate someone who doesn't discuss but only attacks.  I'll let the Mods worry about you.

[cdowis]

9 hours ago, Keq82 said:

  If we are all entitled to revelation, then an angel with a frozen battle ax just told me that polygamy is absolute garbage and should be avoided!  Amen. 

You would agree with me that we worship a different God.  We will be held responsible for the path that each of us follows. 
Hallelujah!

Edited March 17, 2016 by cdowis

[phaedrus ut]

The angel with a flaming sword story never made any logical sense to me.  If god is going to send angels to make interventionist threats why is it important for Joseph to take additional wives rather than save the 270 school girls kidnapped and still missing in Nigeria a few years ago.  

Why would an angel still need to threaten Joseph with harm to marry Helen Mar Kimball who was wife number 25? She was the 5th woman in married in the month of May 1843. Was he still really that reluctant? 

Phaedrus 

[JLHPROF]

2 minutes ago, phaedrus ut said:

The angel with a flaming sword story never made any logical sense to me.  If god is going to send angels to make interventionist threats why is it important for Joseph to take additional wives rather than save the 270 school girls kidnapped and still missing in Nigeria a few years ago.

Why would an angel still need to threaten Joseph with harm to marry Helen Mar Kimball who was wife number 25? She was the 5th woman in married in the month of May 1843. Was he still really that reluctant?

Phaedrus

Your timeline is off.

The angel appeared to Joseph three times between 1834 (after the Fanny Alger relationship) and 1842 (or more probably late 1841 given when Joseph resumed the practice).
The angel didn't threaten Joseph specifically to marry Helen as wife #25.

As for WHY?  Joseph's hesitancy to institute this practice personally and with others was resisting the restoration of a principle from God.
The FULL gospel had to be restored to the earth for the final dispensation - either Joseph would do it or God would replace him with someone who would complete the task.
Not really a similar issue to those poor girls.

[ALarson]

3 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

As for WHY?  Joseph's hesitancy to institute this practice personally and with others was resisting the restoration of a principle from God.
The FULL gospel had to be restored to the earth for the final dispensation - either Joseph would do it or God would replace him with someone who would complete the task.
 

Where does it state in the Bible that polygamy was a necessary principle in the original gospel of Jesus Christ?   

[JLHPROF]

1 minute ago, ALarson said:

Where does it state in the Bible that polygamy was a necessary principle in the original gospel of Jesus Christ?  

Matthew 25

[ALarson]

7 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

Matthew 25

Do you believe that  Christ was the bridegroom and the 10 virgins were his brides?  That's a stretch....but of course it's possible.

Even if that were true, where does it state that polygamy is a principle of the gospel of Jesus Christ?

[JLHPROF]

8 minutes ago, ALarson said:

Do you believe that  Christ was the bridegroom and the 10 virgins were his brides?  That's a stretch....but of course it's possible.

Even if that were true, where does it state that polygamy is a principle of the gospel of Jesus Christ?

And the Talents -  23 His lord said unto him, Well done, good and faithful servant; thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.

[ALarson]

2 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

And the Talents -  23 His lord said unto him, Well done, good and faithful servant; thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.

I see no mention of polygamy there.  Are you saying that the "talents" were wives?

(Still no mention that the polygamy is an important principle of the gospel of Jesus Christ.)

Edited March 17, 2016 by ALarson

[JLHPROF]

Just now, ALarson said:

I see no mention of polygamy there.  Are you saying that the "talents" were wives?

[phaedrus ut]

2 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

Your timeline is off.

The angel appeared to Joseph three times between 1834 (after the Fanny Alger relationship) and 1842 (or more probably late 1841 given when Joseph resumed the practice).
The angel didn't threaten Joseph specifically to marry Helen as wife #25.

As for WHY?  Joseph's hesitancy to institute this practice personally and with others was resisting the restoration of a principle from God.
The FULL gospel had to be restored to the earth for the final dispensation - either Joseph would do it or God would replace him with someone who would complete the task.
Not really a similar issue to those poor girls.

Helen Mar Kimball wrote two books on the subject of polygamy.  If you notice from your link Brian Hales lists Helen as the source of two specific quotations regarding the angel with the drawn sword.  She doesn't specifically state that the angel threatened him with their marriage specifically but he did.  From her own writings we know she was a reluctant bride.  I don't think that Joseph telling her of the encounter with and threat from the angel as just casual conversation.  Helen herself said of Joseph teaching her on the practice

Quote

“This angel, he [Joseph ] states, stood over him with a drawn sword prepared to inflict the penalty of death if he should be disobedient.”

But if she is obiedient 

Quote

"if you will take this step, it will ensure your eternal salvation & exaltation and that of your father’s household & all of your kindred"

Joseph told the story of the angel when teaching Helen about Celestial marriage specifically because it was relevant to their union.  

 

Phaedrus 

 

[VideoGameJunkie]

I don't think the sword the angel used was flaming. I think it was just drawn.

[JLHPROF]

3 minutes ago, VideoGameJunkie said:

I don't think the sword the angel used was flaming. I think it was just drawn.

Both descriptions are used.

[cdowis]

 

4 hours ago, ALarson said:

Where does it state in the Bible that polygamy was a necessary principle in the original gospel of Jesus Christ?   

Acts 1: 3..... {Christ} being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God

And are you able to tell us what Christ was teaching the apostles for 40 days -- was He simply repeating the Sermon on the Mount 10,000 times? s Or are these things which are sacred and withheld from mankind until the Lord restored the Fullness of the Gospel in our day by calling Joseph Smith as a prophet in our day.

Regarding polygamy, see  

2 Samuel 4  [7] And Nathan said to David, Thou art the man. Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, I anointed thee king over Israel, and I delivered thee out of the hand of Saul;
[8] And I gave thee thy master's house, and thy master's wives into thy bosom, and gave thee the house of Israel and of Judah; and if that had been too little, I would moreover have given unto thee such and such things.

Edited March 17, 2016 by cdowis

[ALarson]

7 minutes ago, cdowis said:

 

Acts 1: 3..... {Christ} being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God

And are you able to tell us what Christ was teaching the apostles for 40 days -- was He simply repeating the Sermon on the Mount 10,000 times? s Or are these things which are sacred and withheld from mankind until the Lord restored the Fullness of the Gospel in our day by calling Joseph Smith as a prophet in our day.

Regarding polygamy, see  

2 Samuel 4  [7] And Nathan said to David, Thou art the man. Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, I anointed thee king over Israel, and I delivered thee out of the hand of Saul;
[8] And I gave thee thy master's house, and thy master's wives into thy bosom, and gave thee the house of Israel and of Judah; and if that had been too little, I would moreover have given unto thee such and such things.

There is no where in those quotes that states polygamy was commanded or was an important principle in the gospel of Jesus Christ.

Where is it stated that Christ taught the apostles about polygamy?  It's a huge assumption to infer that he taught this during the 40 days.  Are you saying that you are "able to tell us what Christ was teaching the apostles"?

.

Edited March 17, 2016 by ALarson

[JLHPROF]

11 minutes ago, ALarson said:

It's a huge assumption to infer that he taught this during the 40 days.

Maybe.  Maybe not.
The 40 day literature and teachings have long been thought to be focused around temple things - clarification on sealings, endowments, higher blessings, of which we only have a few examples during the life of Christ.
Polygamy could easily have been one of those "higher principles".
And I stand by what I said about Matthew 25.

13 minutes ago, ALarson said:

There is no where in those quotes that states polygamy was commanded or was an important principle in the gospel of Jesus Christ.

Where is it stated that Christ taught the apostles about polygamy? .

Well I also believe that there is also enough circumstantial evidence that Christ was married to Mary, Martha, and Mary Magdalene.
Perhaps he taught by example?

[ALarson]

1 minute ago, JLHPROF said:

Maybe.  Maybe not.
The 40 day literature and teachings have long been thought to be focused around temple things - clarification on sealings, endowments, higher blessings, of which we only have a few examples during the life of Christ.
Polygamy could easily have been one of those "higher principles".
And I stand by what I said about Matthew 25.

Maybe, but we don't know.  

I find your Matthew 25 beliefs to be very interesting (but probably for another thread).  

2 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

Well I also believe that there is also enough circumstantial evidence that Christ was married to Mary, Martha, and Mary Magdalene.
Perhaps he taught by example?

Perhaps....but just another "maybe".  I believe that Christ was married, but don't believe he was a polygamist....but, maybe.  Another interesting topic.

[cdowis]

6 hours ago, ALarson said:

Where does it state in the Bible that polygamy was a necessary principle in the original gospel of Jesus Christ?   

 I have shown evidence that some of the teachings of Christ are not found in the Bible.  You are asking a loaded question, because it is based on a false assumption that all of the principles of the gospel of Christ are found in the Bible.  This is not a belief of the members of the LDS church.

 

Are you saying that you are "able to tell us what Christ was teaching the apostles"?

I am saying that your premise/assumption is incorrect.  It is a principle of the Gospel, not because it is found in a book which is incomplete, but because God has revealed it to a living prophet.

You obviously have us confused with another religion that believes "Bible only, interpreted by theologians", while we accept all of the word of God, including the Bible and modern revelation, interpreted by prophets.

 

Edited March 17, 2016 by cdowis

[Jeanne]

2 hours ago, VideoGameJunkie said:

I don't think the sword the angel used was flaming. I think it was just drawn.

Does anyone here but me think this sounds crazy at all?????

[ALarson]

12 minutes ago, cdowis said:

 I have shown evidence that some of the teachings of Christ are not found in the Bible.  You are asking a loaded question, because it is based on a false assumption that all of the principles of the gospel of Christ are found in the Bible.  This is not a belief of the members of the LDS church.

You are using flawed logic.

 

I was simply asking where it was established that polygamy was an important principle of the original Gospel of Jesus Christ.  That is a legitimate question.  If you don't know the answer, that's fine too.  But there is no flawed logic in asking this question, when someone states that polygamy needed to be restored in order to have the FULL gospel in this last dispensation.

.

Edited March 17, 2016 by ALarson

[Calm]

2 hours ago, Jeanne said:

Does anyone here but me think this sounds crazy at all?????

You in all probabilty believe or have done something that someone else thinks is crazy.  How helpful would you find them making this comment about something you said?

[Jeanne]

14 minutes ago, Calm said:

You in all probabilty believe or have done something that someone else thinks is crazy.  How helpful would you find them making this comment about something you said?

Probably not helpful at all..so you are right.  I am not talking that VGJ is crazy,..but just the sentence all by itself isn't sounds like something in a fiction novel if nobody knew what we were talking about.  An angel with a sword..just doesn't sound plausible or real.  Of course, I don't believe it and should not have said anything.  You are so smart, keen and full of logical intelligence.  Do you believe there was an angel/sword or a threat of one? Sure..a lot of things I have done that people might believe I was crazy....but it didn't start polygamy.

Edited March 18, 2016 by Jeanne

[Calm]

I don't know.  I don't know the people in the situation well enough to feel comfortable calling them liars, but I also haven't received revelation on why plural marriage was needed.  I trust the most who participated believed they were commanded to do so and that those who speak of a personal spiritual witness believed they received one.  What that means I don't know yet.