sunstoned Posted February 25, 2016 Posted February 25, 2016 (edited) 14 hours ago, Jeanne said: Thanks for the link...I signed it because it is about time. So did I. Edited February 25, 2016 by sunstoned 1
Meadowchik Posted February 25, 2016 Posted February 25, 2016 14 hours ago, bluebell said: It's about time that churches are no longer allowed to be tax exempt? It's about time to strengthen government's influence over every aspect of our lives, including the power of private groups to effect change??? 2
Jude2 Posted February 25, 2016 Posted February 25, 2016 I guess if we started paying taxes then the Church could really endorse candidates and get more involved with politics, there is an upside.
rodheadlee Posted February 25, 2016 Posted February 25, 2016 (edited) 19 hours ago, Jeanne said: Thanks for the link...I signed it because it is about time. So it's ok if we vote our conscience if we pay more money? You think this is going to separate Church and State? It will have the opposite effect. That is the most common reason cited in the comments. The scary comments are the ones that say we should be classified as a hate group for our stance on gay marriage. When that happens I'll be heading out the Golden Gates to freedom. I have question to anyone: Does the Clinton Foundation pay taxes? Nevermind, that would be a no. Edited February 25, 2016 by rodheadlee 1
rodheadlee Posted February 25, 2016 Posted February 25, 2016 18 hours ago, Jeanne said: A lot of churches IMO (LDS/Catholic) are more like corporations anymore. So I guess we will have to stop giving away all that free stuff at the Bishop's warehouse and start charging money for it, like a corporation. No more Charity!!!!! (it felt good to ad those exclamation points, I'm getting the hang of it )
thesometimesaint Posted February 25, 2016 Posted February 25, 2016 13 minutes ago, rodheadlee said: So it's ok if we vote our conscience if we pay more money? You think this is going to separate Church and State? It will have the opposite effect. That is the most common reason cited in the comments. The scary comments are the ones that say we should be classified as a hate group for our stance on gay marriage. When that happens I'll be heading out the Golden Gates to freedom. I have question to anyone: Does the Clinton Foundation pay taxes? Nevermind, that would be a no. I'm willing to let the Clinton Foundation forego taxes if you're willing to let the Mormon Church forego taxes.
rodheadlee Posted February 25, 2016 Posted February 25, 2016 23 minutes ago, thesometimesaint said: I'm willing to let the Clinton Foundation forego taxes if you're willing to let the Mormon Church forego taxes. It's a deal
bluebell Posted February 25, 2016 Posted February 25, 2016 4 hours ago, Meadowchik said: It's about time to strengthen government's influence over every aspect of our lives, including the power of private groups to effect change??? Change.org is generally a really sad place. Have you seen some of the things people are rallying for on there? It makes you lose faith in the intelligence level of most Americans. Thank goodness our government isn't actually based on mob rule or we'd all be in trouble! 2
Meadowchik Posted February 25, 2016 Posted February 25, 2016 1 minute ago, bluebell said: Change.org is generally a really sad place. Have you seen some of the things people are rallying for on there? It makes you lose faith in the intelligence level of most Americans. Thank goodness our government isn't actually based on mob rule or we'd all be in trouble! I actually argued a bit with someone a week or so ago who wanted to start such a petition, after simply trying to explain the problem with the idea. It was sad. 1
ERMD Posted February 25, 2016 Posted February 25, 2016 I have questions about this thread and the sincerity behind it. Perhaps it's just me.
bluebell Posted February 25, 2016 Posted February 25, 2016 22 minutes ago, Meadowchik said: I actually argued a bit with someone a week or so ago who wanted to start such a petition, after simply trying to explain the problem with the idea. It was sad. There are currently over 2,800 petitions on change.org just dealing with Kanye West. It's really hard to take that place seriously, even though there are probably some very worthwhile petitions on there. It seems to be evidence of one of the worst symptoms of our current culture-"I want it therefore it should happen".
Ahab Posted February 25, 2016 Posted February 25, 2016 8 hours ago, thesometimesaint said: The difference my dear Ahab is that in the US we vote for our political leaders, and I have no say in another man's religion. When a Religion is good, I conceive that it will support itself; and, when it cannot support itself, and God does not take care to support, so that its Professors are oblig'd to call for the help of the Civil Power, it is a sign, I apprehend, of its being a bad one. Benjamin Franklin I can see a little bit of good sense in the idea of taking away not-for-profit tax benefits from ALL not-for-profit organizations, but to target only our Church seems to be to be... oh, I don't know exactly what word to describe it, but at least just a LITTLE unfair??? And why force people by rule of law to pay for secular government activities and concerns, in any way? At least our Lord's government/kingdom the people can opt out of paying taxes/tithes when they don't want to or otherwise don't feel financially able without fear of having everything they own or have stewardship over taken away by the government. We just get less blessings/benefits until we do.
thesometimesaint Posted February 25, 2016 Posted February 25, 2016 33 minutes ago, Ahab said: I can see a little bit of good sense in the idea of taking away not-for-profit tax benefits from ALL not-for-profit organizations, but to target only our Church seems to be to be... oh, I don't know exactly what word to describe it, but at least just a LITTLE unfair??? And why force people by rule of law to pay for secular government activities and concerns, in any way? At least our Lord's government/kingdom the people can opt out of paying taxes/tithes when they don't want to or otherwise don't feel financially able without fear of having everything they own or have stewardship over taken away by the government. We just get less blessings/benefits until we do. On this planet without taxes there is no government. Even the Church could not exist without government. I also am reasonably sure that you wouldn't want to live under a sectarian government like Iran. I guess if everyone sat on their own little farm, and provided all of their own needs and wants that idea might work until they wanted to purchase anything not on their own farm. Good luck with paying that MD with chickens when you are sick.
busybee Posted February 25, 2016 Posted February 25, 2016 23 hours ago, thesometimesaint said: So are all non-profits. Should we eliminate the tax exempt status for all of them, or just the ones you don't like? Because I'm out of rep points
The Nehor Posted February 25, 2016 Posted February 25, 2016 So to diminish the church's political influence they want to strip our tax-exempt status so we can be even more politically active? Methinks they have not thought this through. Imagine if the church could sponsor its own political party. It could rule Utah and Idaho. In other words this is a bluff or a threat to force the church to shut up that the threateners do not actually want to use. I almost hope the church calls their ridiculous bluff.
cinepro Posted February 25, 2016 Posted February 25, 2016 I, for one, firmly believe that the Church (and all churches and non-profits) should pay the same tax rate as regular for-profit corporations. 1
Rajah Manchou Posted February 26, 2016 Posted February 26, 2016 (edited) 14 hours ago, Jude2 said: I guess if we started paying taxes then the Church could really endorse candidates and get more involved with politics, there is an upside. 100% agree. So much more could be done if not bound by the restrictions in place for nonprofit organizations. Imagine if all churches paid taxes on their tithes and offerings and business investments. That amount alone would probably be enough to clothe the naked, feed the poor and educate the ignorant. You know, the stuff that congregations should be doing instead of the government. Edited February 26, 2016 by Rajah Manchou
thesometimesaint Posted February 26, 2016 Posted February 26, 2016 6 hours ago, cinepro said: I, for one, firmly believe that the Church (and all churches and non-profits) should pay the same tax rate as regular for-profit corporations. But not even all for profit corporations pay the same effective tax rates. SEE http://www.usnews.com/opinion/economic-intelligence/2015/11/13/reality-check-on-corporate-income-tax-rates
thesometimesaint Posted February 26, 2016 Posted February 26, 2016 1 hour ago, Rajah Manchou said: 100% agree. So much more could be done if not bound by the restrictions in place for nonprofit organizations. Imagine if all churches paid taxes on their tithes and offerings and business investments. That amount alone would probably be enough to clothe the naked, feed the poor and educate the ignorant. You know, the stuff that congregations should be doing instead of the government. The Great Depression should have resolved the issue once and for all. Churches went bankrupt financially during that time, and the LDS barely survived because the Federal Government stepped in to save the citizens of Utah that happened to be members of the Church. SEE http://historytogo.utah.gov/utah_chapters/from_war_to_war/thegreatdepression.html
The Nehor Posted February 26, 2016 Posted February 26, 2016 12 hours ago, cinepro said: I, for one, firmly believe that the Church (and all churches and non-profits) should pay the same tax rate as regular for-profit corporations. I agree with your link in any case. Cutting corporate income tax entirely with a slight increase in taxation to higher income brackets would leave working people everywhere a little wealthier and would get rid of a lot of useless labor. Same thing if we simplified personal income tax. The amount of money from tax preparation firms lobbying to keep taxation complex........ 7 hours ago, Rajah Manchou said: 100% agree. So much more could be done if not bound by the restrictions in place for nonprofit organizations. Imagine if all churches paid taxes on their tithes and offerings and business investments. That amount alone would probably be enough to clothe the naked, feed the poor and educate the ignorant. You know, the stuff that congregations should be doing instead of the government. I love this all or nothing thinking. As if clothing the naked and feeding the hungry and education is a responsibility that falls only on charities or churches or churches or the government or the individual and that everyone else should strictly stay out. Government has a part to play, churches have a part to play, charities have a part to play, and individuals have a part to play. Also, I can assure you that that taxation would not solve poverty. Churches are not that rich and the problem is not that cheap to fix. In any case pure money is unlikely to be a good solution. There are problems where money is the solution and I usually give my donation money to those kinds of causes (polio vaccines for Africa and things like that where the solution is just paying the cost). 5 hours ago, thesometimesaint said: The Great Depression should have resolved the issue once and for all. Churches went bankrupt financially during that time, and the LDS barely survived because the Federal Government stepped in to save the citizens of Utah that happened to be members of the Church. SEE http://historytogo.utah.gov/utah_chapters/from_war_to_war/thegreatdepression.html Considering lax government regulations on markets led to the stock market crash that brought on the Depression I am not sure if that is something to be grateful for or just what they should do to try to make up for their failings. We didn't learn from it in any case. The recession from a few years back came from the same mentality. 2
thesometimesaint Posted February 26, 2016 Posted February 26, 2016 4 hours ago, The Nehor said: Considering lax government regulations on markets led to the stock market crash that brought on the Depression I am not sure if that is something to be grateful for or just what they should do to try to make up for their failings. We didn't learn from it in any case. The recession from a few years back came from the same mentality. It certainly was a part of it. But the Dust Bowl here, and financial problems abroad(Like the Weimar Republic) made big contributions too. It really was a World Wide Depression. Returning to the Boom and Bust Cycles wasn't one of our better ideas.
cinepro Posted February 26, 2016 Posted February 26, 2016 6 hours ago, The Nehor said: Considering lax government regulations on markets led to the stock market crash that brought on the Depression I am not sure if that is something to be grateful for or just what they should do to try to make up for their failings. We didn't learn from it in any case. The recession from a few years back came from the same mentality. No, the 08' recession was totally different. Because real estate never goes down, so no one could see it coming.
Walden Posted February 26, 2016 Posted February 26, 2016 22 hours ago, The Nehor said: So to diminish the church's political influence they want to strip our tax-exempt status so we can be even more politically active? Methinks they have not thought this through. Imagine if the church could sponsor its own political party. It could rule Utah and Idaho. In other words this is a bluff or a threat to force the church to shut up that the threateners do not actually want to use. I almost hope the church calls their ridiculous bluff. Please, as if the church doesn't already rule Utah and Idaho; I have driven through Utah and Idaho on many occasions, and from what I have seen, the church can have them (though Utah does need to ensure that free access to all ski locales remain unencumbered for us heathens in their new theocratic state)
Jeanne Posted February 26, 2016 Posted February 26, 2016 On 2/25/2016 at 6:09 AM, Jude2 said: I guess if we started paying taxes then the Church could really endorse candidates and get more involved with politics, there is an upside. I think they kinda already do that.
The Nehor Posted February 26, 2016 Posted February 26, 2016 2 hours ago, cinepro said: No, the 08' recession was totally different. Because real estate never goes down, so no one could see it coming. No, you see this time it is different because (dumb reasons). This money train is never going away.
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