Popular Post Scott Lloyd Posted January 7, 2016 Popular Post Posted January 7, 2016 (edited) A few times on this board over the past couple of days, I've made reference to an event I covered for the Church News on Tuesday night, a commemorative devotional for the 60th anniversary of what effectively was the first Young Single Adult stake in the Church. Elder Ballard presided over and spoke at the event. What I want to emphasize here is an exhortation he gave to these young people to become competent defenders of the faith. Here is a direct quote I included in my story: Quote “You have to be strengthened to know how to answer some of the criticisms that people are thrusting at the Church. You need to know your Church history well enough that you can answer any questions that anybody asks you about the Prophet Joseph Smith, the Book of Mormon or the restoration of the priesthood or any other basic doctrinal, plan-of-salvation question. Why? Because you lead the way. We need to not hesitate preparing ourselves to face the world and anyone in it that might like to criticize the leadership of the Church.” He admonished, “Do not get swept away by some of those who try to destroy your faith and your testimony by raising things that are insignificant in comparison to the realities of the life and ministry of the Prophet Joseph Smith.” This, I feel, directly contradicts accusations that the Church hides or whitewashes its history or tries to shield its members from reality. To me, the above is in direct contradiction to such charges. Edited January 7, 2016 by Scott Lloyd 7
stemelbow Posted January 7, 2016 Posted January 7, 2016 2 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: A few times on this board over the past couple of days, I've made reference to an event I covered for the Church News on Tuesday night, a commemorative devotional for the 60th anniversary of what effectively was the first Young Single Adult stake in the Church. Elder Ballard presided over and spoke at the event. What I want to emphasize here is an exhortation he gave to these young people to become competent defenders of the faith. Here is a direct quote I included in my story: This, I feel, directly contradicts accusations that the Church hides or whitewashes its history or tries to shield its members from reality. To me, the above is in direct contradiction to such charges. Thanks for this, Scott. It's an encouraging quote, from my perspective.
HappyJackWagon Posted January 7, 2016 Posted January 7, 2016 3 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: A few times on this board over the past couple of days, I've made reference to an event I covered for the Church News on Tuesday night, a commemorative devotional for the 60th anniversary of what effectively was the first Young Single Adult stake in the Church. Elder Ballard presided over and spoke at the event. What I want to emphasize here is an exhortation he gave to these young people to become competent defenders of the faith. Here is a direct quote I included in my story: This, I feel, directly contradicts accusations that the Church hides or whitewashes its history or tries to shield its members from reality. To me, the above is in direct contradiction to such charges. 1- this does nothing to contradict claims that the church has whitewashed history or hidden information in the past. But it does reflect a general change in approach which I think is great. 2- Are the young adults realty the ones to lead the way in answering challenging doctrinal and historical questions? I'd suggest that the church leaders should lead in this area and answer the questions themselves. This approach assumes that there is a faith promoting answer to every difficult issue. If there are the leadership can do much better in answering the questions. They've started the dialogue with the essays which is great but there is much more to do. 3- Check out my tag line about defending the truth.
Scott Lloyd Posted January 7, 2016 Author Posted January 7, 2016 6 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said: 2- Are the young adults realty the ones to lead the way in answering challenging doctrinal and historical questions? I'd suggest that the church leaders should lead in this area and answer the questions themselves. This approach assumes that there is a faith promoting answer to every difficult issue. If there are the leadership can do much better in answering the questions. They've started the dialogue with the essays which is great but there is much more to do. They cannot do it by themselves, nor can they be everywhere. Elder Ballard is saying these college-age Latter-day Saints need to lead the way among Church members in this effort and be ready to defend the faith as they have occasion to do so and as they encounter attacks. Relatively advantaged as they are, they are in a good position to prepare themselves to do so, perhaps better positioned than most. Quote 3- Check out my tag line about defending the truth. I don't know off hand the context of your Augustine quote, but it seems to ignore the reality that unless there is an adequate defense of truth, people can easily be deceived. This can happen in a number of ways: sophistry, out-of-context quotation or citation, half-truths, etc. I would respond to your quotation with this quotation from Austin Farrer: Quote “Though argument does not create conviction, the lack of it destroys belief. What seems to be proved may not be embraced; but what no one shows the ability to defend is quickly abandoned. Rational argument does not create belief, but it maintains a climate in which belief may flourish.” As for the J. Reuben Clark quote, I don't believe it is inconsistent with what Elder Ballard said. 1
consiglieri Posted January 7, 2016 Posted January 7, 2016 Quote You need to know your Church history well enough that you can answer any questions that anybody asks you about the Prophet Joseph Smith, the Book of Mormon or the restoration of the priesthood or any other basic doctrinal, plan-of-salvation question. Elder Ballard is blowing smoke with this one. He has no intention of actually allowing the young adults to be formally educated on Church history such that they can answer any question. Maybe he is really putting emphasis on the word "basic" in this sentence. And why does it always come down to the concern about Church leaders being criticized? Quote We need to not hesitate preparing ourselves to face the world and anyone in it that might like to criticize the leadership of the Church. That is the cardinal sin in Mormonism. Criticizing the leaders. They're a touchy lot. 1
Scott Lloyd Posted January 7, 2016 Author Posted January 7, 2016 7 minutes ago, consiglieri said: Elder Ballard is blowing smoke with this one. He has no intention of actually allowing the young adults to be formally educated on Church history such that they can answer any question. So once again, you call one of the Lord's anointed a liar. This is getting tiresome. 4
consiglieri Posted January 7, 2016 Posted January 7, 2016 1 minute ago, Scott Lloyd said: So once again, you call one of the Lord's anointed a liar. This is getting tiresome. You know in your heart that what I am saying about this is true, Scott. Elder Ballard has no intention of exposing the young adults to Church history sufficiently to answer any question. This is just bravado. Prove me wrong if you can. I won't hold my breath.
Scott Lloyd Posted January 7, 2016 Author Posted January 7, 2016 13 minutes ago, consiglieri said: You know in your heart that what I am saying about this is true, Scott. Among the things you are least capable of is peering into my heart. Quote Elder Ballard has no intention of exposing the young adults to Church history sufficiently to answer any question. This is just bravado. Prove me wrong if you can. I won't hold my breath. As the accuser, you bear the burden of proof. 4
TheSkepticChristian Posted January 7, 2016 Posted January 7, 2016 49 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: contradicts accusations that the Church hides or whitewashes its history or tries to shield its members from reality. To me, the above is in direct contradiction to such charges. It is not the History that bothers me, psychology and neuroscience do. Nobody answers my question in the "how do I recognize the spirit?" thread
consiglieri Posted January 7, 2016 Posted January 7, 2016 41 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: Among the things you are least capable of is peering into my heart It's my gift of the Spirit. And it isn't pretty . . .
consiglieri Posted January 7, 2016 Posted January 7, 2016 42 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: As the accuser, you bear the burden of proof. Wrong again, Scott. Everybody on this board already knows that what I am saying is true. Whether they admit it or not. I will say it again. Elder Ballard has no intention of exposing the young adults to Church history sufficiently to answer any question. Elder Ballard is sending the YSA out in rowboats to meet the Spanish Armada.
consiglieri Posted January 7, 2016 Posted January 7, 2016 1 hour ago, Scott Lloyd said: This, I feel, directly contradicts accusations that the Church hides or whitewashes its history or tries to shield its members from reality. To me, the above is in direct contradiction to such charges. This is nonsense, Scott. Elder Ballard, et al, are talking more and more about answering "attacks" against the Church and how lame such criticisms are. But they refuse to talk about the criticisms themselves. Why is that? Because the Church is still invested in hiding and whitewashing its history and shielding its members from reality. 1
Ahab Posted January 7, 2016 Posted January 7, 2016 8 minutes ago, consiglieri said: Wrong again, Scott. Everybody on this board already knows that what I am saying is true. Whether they admit it or not. I will say it again. Elder Ballard has no intention of exposing the young adults to Church history sufficiently to answer any question. Elder Ballard is sending the YSA out in rowboats to meet the Spanish Armada. He said we need to not hesitate preparing ourselves to face the world and anyone in it that might like to criticize the leadership of the Church. We need to prepare ourselves. To face people who talk like you do about our leaders. I'm prepared. With a smile on my face and a testimony of the truth taught by our leaders. 2
consiglieri Posted January 7, 2016 Posted January 7, 2016 2 minutes ago, Ahab said: He said we need to not hesitate preparing ourselves to face the world and anyone in it that might like to criticize the leadership of the Church. We need to prepare ourselves. To face people who talk like you do about our leaders. I'm prepared. With a smile on my face and a testimony of the truth taught by our leaders. Again I ask the question--Why is the first priority of Church leaders to avoid being criticized? And why is Elder Ballard rallying the troops to defend him? Isn't he up to the task?
consiglieri Posted January 7, 2016 Posted January 7, 2016 You have to realize that Church leaders like to talk about themselves in the third person. Elder Ballard is a Church leader. So when he says he wants the members to prepare to face anyone that might like to criticize the leadership of the Church, he is referring to himself. He is saying to the YSA, "I want you to prepare yourselves to defend me." When you get to the heart of the message, it isn't very flattering. 1
Scott Lloyd Posted January 7, 2016 Author Posted January 7, 2016 4 minutes ago, consiglieri said: Again I ask the question--Why is the first priority of Church leaders to avoid being criticized? And why is Elder Ballard rallying the troops to defend him? Isn't he up to the task? Who said it is their first priority? I can think of quite a few higher priority tasks. Inviting people to come to Christ and saving souls would be among them. Which is probably why they don't respond to every petty critic who comes down the pike. There are more important things occupying their time and energy. 2
theplains Posted January 7, 2016 Posted January 7, 2016 1 hour ago, Scott Lloyd said: This, I feel, directly contradicts accusations that the Church hides or whitewashes its history or tries to shield its members from reality. To me, the above is in direct contradiction to such charges. Is there a Chinese equivalent of the LDS Church's document on polygamy? Thanks, Jim
Scott Lloyd Posted January 7, 2016 Author Posted January 7, 2016 (edited) 33 minutes ago, consiglieri said: You have to realize that Church leaders like to talk about themselves in the third person. Elder Ballard is a Church leader. So when he says he wants the members to prepare to face anyone that might like to criticize the leadership of the Church, he is referring to himself. He is saying to the YSA, "I want you to prepare yourselves to defend me." When you get to the heart of the message, it isn't very flattering. He said it in the context of answering criticisms of the Church and its doctrines. Much of the criticism directed at the Brethren is because of what they say and do when acting under the direction of Jesus Christ. Ergo, an attack on them in such an instance is tantamount to an attack on the Church and the faith of the Latter-day Saints. Edited January 7, 2016 by Scott Lloyd 3
CV75 Posted January 7, 2016 Posted January 7, 2016 23 minutes ago, consiglieri said: Everybody on this board already knows that what I am saying is true. Whether they admit it or not. I will say it again. Elder Ballard has no intention of exposing the young adults to Church history sufficiently to answer any question. Elder Ballard is sending the YSA out in rowboats to meet the Spanish Armada. Wrong! And wrong to twist his meaning. He did say “basic.” His counsel and call is consistent with Timothy Chapter 3. Verses 1-8 describe those who would destroy faith; “from such turn away.” There is no need to engage them in the inessential and peripheral complaints and criticisms. Verses 10-17 describe how we are to lead the way, not hesitating to prepare ourselves to face the world and anyone in it that might like to criticize the leadership of the Church (Christ and the prophets and apostles past and present). This is what he is talking about; keep it to the basics ("Church history well enough that you can answer any questions that anybody asks you about the Prophet Joseph Smith, the Book of Mormon or the restoration of the priesthood or any other basic doctrinal, plan-of-salvation question" to the extent "history" has anything to do with it) 19 minutes ago, consiglieri said: Elder Ballard, et al, are talking more and more about answering "attacks" against the Church and how lame such criticisms are. But they refuse to talk about the criticisms themselves. Why is that? See above. It is neither inspired nor effective to get bogged down in the concerns of those who seek to destroy faith. 2
consiglieri Posted January 7, 2016 Posted January 7, 2016 (edited) 10 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: Which is probably why they don't respond to every petty critic who comes down the pike. There are more important things occupying their time and energy. What was occupying Elder Ballard's time and energy Tuesday night was telling members to prepare to defend him. Edited January 7, 2016 by consiglieri
consiglieri Posted January 7, 2016 Posted January 7, 2016 3 minutes ago, CV75 said: Wrong! And wrong to twist his meaning. He did say “basic.” His counsel and call is consistent with Timothy Chapter 3. Verses 1-8 describe those who would destroy faith; “from such turn away.” There is no need to engage them in the inessential and peripheral complaints and criticisms. Verses 10-17 describe how we are to lead the way, not hesitating to prepare ourselves to face the world and anyone in it that might like to criticize the leadership of the Church (Christ and the prophets and apostles past and present). This is what he is talking about; keep it to the basics ("Church history well enough that you can answer any questions that anybody asks you about the Prophet Joseph Smith, the Book of Mormon or the restoration of the priesthood or any other basic doctrinal, plan-of-salvation question" to the extent "history" has anything to do with it) See above. It is neither inspired nor effective to get bogged down in the concerns of those who seek to destroy faith. So basically Elder Ballard was just saying to answer the question that should have been asked.
CA Steve Posted January 7, 2016 Posted January 7, 2016 Would being able to give an explanation of Fanny Alger's place in Mormon history be part of what leadership might expect from an young adult in the basic church history requirements?
Scott Lloyd Posted January 8, 2016 Author Posted January 8, 2016 21 minutes ago, consiglieri said: What was occupying Elder Ballard's time and energy Tuesday night was telling members to prepare to defend him. To defend the Church. You really do make a hobby of twisting people's meanings. 1
The Nehor Posted January 8, 2016 Posted January 8, 2016 2 hours ago, consiglieri said: Elder Ballard is blowing smoke with this one. He has no intention of actually allowing the young adults to be formally educated on Church history such that they can answer any question. Maybe he is really putting emphasis on the word "basic" in this sentence. And why does it always come down to the concern about Church leaders being criticized? That is the cardinal sin in Mormonism. Criticizing the leaders. They're a touchy lot. I suspect it is more that that is the usual mode of attack. If bombers keep trying to hit your city it is not surprising that you focus on interceptors and anti-aircraft weapons while people like you suggest we must defend everything and focus on antitank guns.....almost as if you want us to get bombed........ 1
Scott Lloyd Posted January 8, 2016 Author Posted January 8, 2016 (edited) 10 minutes ago, CA Steve said: Would being able to give an explanation of Fanny Alger's place in Mormon history be part of what leadership might expect from an young adult in the basic church history requirements? I think at minimum they ought to be acquainted with the content of the "Gosepl Topics" essays. The essay on plural marriage talks about Fanny Alger. Edited January 8, 2016 by Scott Lloyd 1
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