The Nehor Posted January 8, 2016 Posted January 8, 2016 4 minutes ago, consiglieri said: LOL! The problem with that plan is you can't call an apostle. You can't even contact an apostle. If you write a letter to an apostle, it gets sent back to your stake president. If you shoot the "apostle-signal" into the night sky, nobody shows up at Commissioner Gordon's office. You get the point. All you have to do to get a letter to an apostle is go through your stake president. I know of a few cases of this happening. Mostly they were about spiritual manifestations or revelations teaching things that are not in scripture. 1
JLHPROF Posted January 8, 2016 Posted January 8, 2016 Yet Joseph Smith commends their intellectual efforts as a corrective to the Latter-day Saints, who lean too far in the other direction, giving their young people and old awards for zeal alone, zeal without knowledge—for sitting in endless meetings, for dedicated conformity and unlimited capacity for suffering boredom.” Approaching Zion 75. Hugh Nibley. That's all Elder Ballard was cautioning against. Encouraging the youth to study Church History and doctrines is always a good thing. 1
consiglieri Posted January 8, 2016 Posted January 8, 2016 8 minutes ago, The Nehor said: All you have to do to get a letter to an apostle is go through your stake president. I know of a few cases of this happening. Mostly they were about spiritual manifestations or revelations teaching things that are not in scripture. It's as easy as all that, is it?
stemelbow Posted January 8, 2016 Posted January 8, 2016 16 hours ago, consiglieri said: Elder Ballard has no intention of exposing the young adults to Church history sufficiently to answer any question. Any question? That's about as over-the-top as one can get, Consiglieri. Are you saying Elder Ballard does not want the youth to learn history sufficient enough to answer a question about what year the Church was organized? I suspect you intend to say Elder Ballard does not want the youth to learn history to the point of being able to answer critical questions. I'd say even that's over-the-top. I would say Elder Ballard, though realizing there are problems with our history enough to cause many concern, confusion and doubt, he also genuinely believes the Church is God's Church organization on earth. I'd think his take is more about getting members to accept that the problems of the past aren't really problems because they don't affect you, than he is about keeping information from people. The keeping info from people just happens to be a result of the real goal. In all honesty, though, it won't matter how much the Church tries to keep information from people. It'll find it's way out there at least for some. As more and more learn, the news will be carried throughout the Church. This is only going to continue, and the information is only going to be better well known.
Scott Lloyd Posted January 8, 2016 Author Posted January 8, 2016 22 minutes ago, consiglieri said: You just denied my statement and then agreed with it. In just three sentences. Substance-to -noise ratio: extremely low
The Nehor Posted January 8, 2016 Posted January 8, 2016 3 minutes ago, consiglieri said: It's as easy as all that, is it? Yeah, getting revelations is also more fun then being a cynic.
consiglieri Posted January 8, 2016 Posted January 8, 2016 Just now, stemelbow said: Any question? That's about as over-the-top as one can get, Consiglieri. Are you saying Elder Ballard does not want the youth to learn history sufficient enough to answer a question about what year the Church was organized? I suspect you intend to say Elder Ballard does not want the youth to learn history to the point of being able to answer critical questions. I'd say even that's over-the-top. I would say Elder Ballard, though realizing there are problems with our history enough to cause many concern, confusion and doubt, he also genuinely believes the Church is God's Church organization on earth. I'd think his take is more about getting members to accept that the problems of the past aren't really problems because they don't affect you, than he is about keeping information from people. The keeping info from people just happens to be a result of the real goal. In all honesty, though, it won't matter how much the Church tries to keep information from people. It'll find it's way out there at least for some. As more and more learn, the news will be carried throughout the Church. This is only going to continue, and the information is only going to be better well known. I am using "any" as a determiner here, stemelbow. As in, "whichever of a specified class might be chosen."
Scott Lloyd Posted January 8, 2016 Author Posted January 8, 2016 15 hours ago, Zakuska said: From Elder Ballards quote You yourself used: Sounds to me like consig was right on Scott. It is you who is mincing words. Substance-to-noise ratio: near zero
Scott Lloyd Posted January 8, 2016 Author Posted January 8, 2016 15 hours ago, consiglieri said: According to Elder Ballard, yes. Except the reality is something a wee bit different. Substance-to-noise ratio: near zero
stemelbow Posted January 8, 2016 Posted January 8, 2016 6 minutes ago, consiglieri said: I am using "any" as a determiner here, stemelbow. As in, "whichever of a specified class might be chosen." Well either way, I think it's pretty clear, you're wrong. But, we're all wrong about something, I suppose.
CV75 Posted January 8, 2016 Posted January 8, 2016 16 hours ago, consiglieri said: So basically Elder Ballard was just saying to answer the question that should have been asked. Not really. If this was the case, you might have more correctly said, “So basically Elder Ballard was saying to be prepared to oblige questions that are not designed to destroy faith,” which is not the same as “sending the YSA out in rowboats to meet the Spanish Armada” by “hiding and whitewashing its history and shielding its members from reality” and having "no intention of actually allowing the young adults to be formally educated on Church history” as you've been saying. And defending against criticisms of Church leadership on matters of “Church history [withholding, whitewashing]; Joseph Smith [you name it]; Book of Mormon [what does one expect?]; restoration of the priesthood [ordain women]; basic doctrine [Creation, Adam, Eden, etc.],” while important, is not the first priority nor the heart of the messages. Look at the list: it comes in at #6! “You have to be strengthened to know how to answer some of the criticisms that people are thrusting at the Church. You need to know your 1 Church history well enough that you can answer any questions that anybody asks you about the 2 Prophet Joseph Smith, 3 the Book of Mormon or the 4 restoration of the priesthood or any other 5 basic doctrinal, plan-of-salvation question. Why? Because you lead the way. We need to not hesitate preparing ourselves to face the world and anyone in it that might like to 6 criticize the leadership of the Church” with one of the many questions that represent “things that are insignificant in comparison to the realities of the life and ministry of the Prophet Joseph Smith.”
CA Steve Posted January 8, 2016 Posted January 8, 2016 Seems we are working with different definitions of "any".
Ahab Posted January 8, 2016 Posted January 8, 2016 1 hour ago, consiglieri said: And Ahab makes it unanimous! Well he is, don't ya know. Whether by his own voice or the voice of one of his servants, it is the same.
Zakuska Posted January 8, 2016 Posted January 8, 2016 4 minutes ago, Ahab said: Whether by his own voice or the voice of one of his servants, it is the same. Unless we're talking about Moon/Sun men, Adam-God, Blacks and the Priesthood. et al. 1
consiglieri Posted January 8, 2016 Posted January 8, 2016 51 minutes ago, The Nehor said: Yeah, getting revelations is also more fun then being a cynic. I have found being a cynic the short-cut to getting revelations.
Ahab Posted January 8, 2016 Posted January 8, 2016 16 hours ago, consiglieri said: No kidding! And why can't the Church leaders just defend themselves? Why do they want other people to do it for them? A friendly warning: You are wearing out your welcome. You need to go elsewhere to disrespect religious leaders. I'm quoting this mod warning for you just in case maybe you didn't see it, consiglieri. I'd kinda miss you if you were gone. And yes I do know that you like to wear your stretchy poopy pants in your house, sometimes, while you try to get yourself banned from this board, just for fun.
CV75 Posted January 8, 2016 Posted January 8, 2016 44 minutes ago, CA Steve said: Seems we are working with different definitions of "any". LOL just working with a refusal to get past “any questions that anybody asks you” to see the questions are “about the Prophet Joseph Smith, the Book of Mormon or the restoration of the priesthood or any other basic doctrinal, plan-of-salvation question.”
Scott Lloyd Posted January 8, 2016 Author Posted January 8, 2016 42 minutes ago, salgare said: No comment to my post Scott There have been 16 posts on this page alone, and you come on to ask why I haven't replied to your post without even specifying what post you are talking about? By the way, did you ever get around to answering my CFR of yesterday? As I recall, it pertained to your assertion that somebody in general conference (presumably in October of last year) told people not to look at anti-Mormon content on the Internet.
The Nehor Posted January 8, 2016 Posted January 8, 2016 1 hour ago, consiglieri said: I have found being a cynic the short-cut to getting revelations. I prefer the ones with the visions of eternity. Cynics tend to get the ones that suggest everything is terrible.
Nevo Posted January 8, 2016 Posted January 8, 2016 (edited) I'm normally not a big fan of Elder Ballard's talks, but I hope he was serious in urging young people to dig into Church history and the life of Joseph Smith and not skip over the controversial parts. The Church needs more—many more—thoughtful, well-informed defenders like Neal Rappleye, Stephen Smoot, Nathaniel Givens, and others. Zeal without knowledge only goes so far. Edited January 8, 2016 by Nevo 1
CA Steve Posted January 8, 2016 Posted January 8, 2016 1 hour ago, CV75 said: LOL just working with a refusal to get past “any questions that anybody asks you” to see the questions are “about the Prophet Joseph Smith, the Book of Mormon or the restoration of the priesthood or any other basic doctrinal, plan-of-salvation question.” Well just about any question dealing with Mormonism could be framed as within those areas. Since Joseph Smith founded the church, any question about the church can be linked to him, so I don't see anywhere one can refuse to get past.
consiglieri Posted January 8, 2016 Posted January 8, 2016 (edited) 1 hour ago, Scott Lloyd said: There have been 16 posts on this page alone, and you come on to ask why I haven't replied to your post without even specifying what post you are talking about? By the way, did you ever get around to answering my CFR of yesterday? As I recall, it pertained to your assertion that somebody in general conference (presumably in October of last year) told people not to look at anti-Mormon content on the Internet. The CFR wasn't directed at me, but my recollection is it was a theme shared by the first two speakers, President ("The Note Has Been Noted") Uchtdorf and Elder ("Stay in the Boat") Ballard. Edited January 8, 2016 by consiglieri
consiglieri Posted January 8, 2016 Posted January 8, 2016 (edited) 36 minutes ago, The Nehor said: I prefer the ones with the visions of eternity. Cynics tend to get the ones that suggest everything is terrible. How often do we hear in General Conference that the world is going to hell in a hand basket? Edited January 8, 2016 by consiglieri
consiglieri Posted January 8, 2016 Posted January 8, 2016 35 minutes ago, Nevo said: I'm normally not a big fan of Elder Ballard's talks, but I hope he was serious in urging young people to dig into Church history and the life of Joseph Smith and not skip over the controversial parts. The Church needs more—many more—thoughtful, well-informed defenders like Neal Rappleye, Stephen Smoot, Nathaniel Givens, and others. Zeal without knowledge only goes so far. Amen, Captain Nevo! My cynicism notwithstanding.
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