rodheadlee Posted December 19, 2015 Posted December 19, 2015 13 hours ago, consiglieri said: Then how can the Proclamation be correct when it says gender is part of their purpose in the eternities? Because making it only to the Terrestrial or Telestial Kingdom would be failing to meet God's purpose for you. You don't get a Trophy for failing. If you don't make it to the highest kingdom you probably shouldn't be allowed to procreate and pollute the gene pool. Are you from the every team gets a trophy generation?
rodheadlee Posted December 19, 2015 Posted December 19, 2015 13 hours ago, consiglieri said: Then how can the Proclamation be correct when it says gender is part of their purpose in the eternities? Because making it only to the Terrestrial or Telestial Kingdom would be failing to meet God's purpose for you. You don't get a Trophy for failing. If you don't make it to the highest kingdom you probably shouldn't be allowed to procreate and pollute the gene pool. Are you from the every team gets a trophy generation?
Bernard Gui Posted December 19, 2015 Posted December 19, 2015 (edited) On December 16, 2015 at 5:08 PM, consiglieri said: There is a jarring sentence in the 1995 Proclamation to the World on the Family: There is no scriptural or revelatory basis for this statement, to my knowledge. I believe that gender is not an essential characteristic of mortal identity and purpose. Most Mormons believe that for the vast majority, gender will not be an essential characteristic of eternal identity and purpose. And, perhaps most importantly, we have absolutely no knowledge on the subject relating to gender being an essential characteristic of individual premortal identity and purpose. Here is where I think the Proclamation goes too far, doctrinally speaking. What do you think? Here's an official declaration of the First Presidency. I think they are correct. Quote The Father of Jesus is our Father also. Jesus Himself taught this truth when He instructed His disciples how to pray: “Our Father which art in heaven,” etc. Jesus, however, is the firstborn among all the sons of God—the first begotten in the spirit, and the only begotten in the flesh. He is our elder brother, and we, like Him, are in the image of God. All men and women are in the similitude of the universal Father and Mother and are literally the sons and daughters of Deity. https://www.lds.org/ensign/2002/02/the-origin-of-man?lang=eng Literally sons and daughters of male and female deity. There is a precise correlation between heavenly parents and their offspring here. It's very clear that gender is an essential characteristic of our premortal identity and purpose. Edited December 19, 2015 by Bernard Gui 1
The Nehor Posted December 19, 2015 Posted December 19, 2015 1 hour ago, rodheadlee said: Because making it only to the Terrestrial or Telestial Kingdom would be failing to meet God's purpose for you. You don't get a Trophy for failing. If you don't make it to the highest kingdom you probably shouldn't be allowed to procreate and pollute the gene pool. Are you from the every team gets a trophy generation? Ironically the generations accused of being the "everybody gets a trophy generation" are facing more competition in their careers and lives then did the older generations that like to look down on them who were still coasting on US supremacy from the post-WWII boom. It is also one of the most demeaning characterizations. It implies that that generation's kids (and I will include myself here as I got participation trophies) were so stupid that they could not differentiate between winning and losing. The winners in the leagues I played in got bigger trophies. We knew who won and we felt the bitterness of defeat when we lost. The trophy seems to fool the parents buying into this philosophy more then it ever fooled the kids. The only place the "everyone gets a trophy" mentality might convince the kids who lost that they won is in the Special Olympics and with the really young insecure kids and I am pretty sure no one wants to accuse those kids of being coddled. I remember when one of my bosses (a VP) was in a meeting with a group of about a dozen salesmen (I was there as a technical expert) and was showing pictures of his kids after an athletic event and describing how it went. One on the losing team got a participation trophy. One salesman brought up the much-lauded rubbish about participation trophies harming children and how if they did not win they did not earn it with a big macho tough-guy demeanor. The VP then with a perfectly straight face pointed out that this salesman was in the lower end in sales for the quarter and therefore logically did not deserve a raise this year. That guy sweated for a few months hoping it was a joke. Does the older generation really believe what they preach and actually think this is harmful or do they just want to complain about the younger generations as each generation has done since Adam told Seth how much easier he has it? All that being said I am agnostic about the trophies. I don't think they harm kids but I am not convinced they are worth it either. In any case I think it is very problematic that people who claim to adhere to the gospel of Jesus Christ believe that in order for success to exist there must also be losers. This is why I am tempted to argue that hyper-competitive sporting mentality is more dangerous then trophies. 2
The Nehor Posted December 19, 2015 Posted December 19, 2015 2 hours ago, rodheadlee said: Because making it only to the Terrestrial or Telestial Kingdom would be failing to meet God's purpose for you. You don't get a Trophy for failing. If you don't make it to the highest kingdom you probably shouldn't be allowed to procreate and pollute the gene pool. Are you from the every team gets a trophy generation? So exaltation is basically a eugenics program?
consiglieri Posted December 19, 2015 Author Posted December 19, 2015 9 hours ago, rodheadlee said: Because making it only to the Terrestrial or Telestial Kingdom would be failing to meet God's purpose for you. You don't get a Trophy for failing. If you don't make it to the highest kingdom you probably shouldn't be allowed to procreate and pollute the gene pool. Are you from the every team gets a trophy generation? There are no such caveats in the language of the Proclamation. Here it is again: Quote Gender is an essential characteristic of individual premortal, mortal, and eternal identity and purpose. See?
rodheadlee Posted December 19, 2015 Posted December 19, 2015 8 hours ago, The Nehor said: So exaltation is basically a eugenics program? Well do you think " 103 These are athey who are bliars, and csorcerers, and dadulterers, and ewhoremongers, and whosoever loves and makes a lie. " should be allowed to procreate?
consiglieri Posted December 19, 2015 Author Posted December 19, 2015 10 minutes ago, rodheadlee said: Well do you think " 103 These are athey who are bliars, and csorcerers, and dadulterers, and ewhoremongers, and whosoever loves and makes a lie. " should be allowed to procreate? Funny God has no problem with letting them do it here.
rodheadlee Posted December 19, 2015 Posted December 19, 2015 24 minutes ago, consiglieri said: Funny God has no problem with letting them do it here. Yes and look at the results.
rodheadlee Posted December 19, 2015 Posted December 19, 2015 9 hours ago, The Nehor said: Ironically the generations accused of being the "everybody gets a trophy generation" are facing more competition in their careers and lives then did the older generations that like to look down on them who were still coasting on US supremacy from the post-WWII boom. It is also one of the most demeaning characterizations. It implies that that generation's kids (and I will include myself here as I got participation trophies) were so stupid that they could not differentiate between winning and losing. The winners in the leagues I played in got bigger trophies. We knew who won and we felt the bitterness of defeat when we lost. The trophy seems to fool the parents buying into this philosophy more then it ever fooled the kids. The only place the "everyone gets a trophy" mentality might convince the kids who lost that they won is in the Special Olympics and with the really young insecure kids and I am pretty sure no one wants to accuse those kids of being coddled. I remember when one of my bosses (a VP) was in a meeting with a group of about a dozen salesmen (I was there as a technical expert) and was showing pictures of his kids after an athletic event and describing how it went. One on the losing team got a participation trophy. One salesman brought up the much-lauded rubbish about participation trophies harming children and how if they did not win they did not earn it with a big macho tough-guy demeanor. The VP then with a perfectly straight face pointed out that this salesman was in the lower end in sales for the quarter and therefore logically did not deserve a raise this year. That guy sweated for a few months hoping it was a joke. Does the older generation really believe what they preach and actually think this is harmful or do they just want to complain about the younger generations as each generation has done since Adam told Seth how much easier he has it? All that being said I am agnostic about the trophies. I don't think they harm kids but I am not convinced they are worth it either. In any case I think it is very problematic that people who claim to adhere to the gospel of Jesus Christ believe that in order for success to exist there must also be losers. This is why I am tempted to argue that hyper-competitive sporting mentality is more dangerous then trophies. In my previous occupation, which was residential construction, I got paid for exactly what I produced. 200.00 to build a set of stairs, 15.00 for each beam cut and installed etc. If you don't complete anything, you don't get paid anything. For over 30 years my paycheck was a direct reflection on what I had produced. Innovation only paid off if it resulted in greater production. Participation trophies propagate the lie that you will get paid just for showing up. Now I have a job where they don't care how long it takes, the just want it done "right". With out the experience of the former it would be impossible to produce the latter. 1
Ahab Posted December 19, 2015 Posted December 19, 2015 The only ones of us who will not get a trophy/prize of some kind at the end of this test will be the sons and daughters of Perdition, with our reward being commiserate to all the good things we have done. I personally approved of this idea before I came here and I still approve of it now.
rodheadlee Posted December 19, 2015 Posted December 19, 2015 42 minutes ago, rodheadlee said: In my previous occupation, which was residential construction, I got paid for exactly what I produced. 200.00 to build a set of stairs, 15.00 for each beam cut and installed etc. If you don't complete anything, you don't get paid anything. For over 30 years my paycheck was a direct reflection on what I had produced. Innovation only paid off if it resulted in greater production. Participation trophies propagate the lie that you will get paid just for showing up. Now I have a job where they don't care how long it takes, the just want it done "right". With out the experience of the former it would be impossible to produce the latter. I don't normally quote myself but I thought it important to realize that Church works the same way. No matter how many times I show up to Church, no matter how much I believe that Jesus is the Christ and that the Church is His Church they are NOT going to give me a TR until I conquer nicotine addiction. Why should they give me a TR when I have failed to live up to the covenants I made when I was baptized?
rodheadlee Posted December 19, 2015 Posted December 19, 2015 33 minutes ago, Ahab said: The only ones of us who will not get a trophy/prize of some kind at the end of this test will be the sons and daughters of Perdition, with our reward being commiserate to all the good things we have done. I personally approved of this idea before I came here and I still approve of it now. The prize we are discussing is specific, the ability to procreate for all eternity.
JLHPROF Posted December 19, 2015 Posted December 19, 2015 1 hour ago, consiglieri said: Funny God has no problem with letting them do it here. That's because "here" isn't eternal unless practiced according to God's laws. "Here" will come to an abrupt end and immoral procreation here will not result in families there. 1
rongo Posted December 19, 2015 Posted December 19, 2015 20 hours ago, consiglieri said: Nor does that make me think such people do not think. Hey, you're the one who said that those who have thought about the issue see things your way. The flipside to that coin is that those who disagree with you must not have thought about the issue. Are you claiming that my summary of what you said is inaccurate?
rongo Posted December 19, 2015 Posted December 19, 2015 20 hours ago, consiglieri said: Yawn. Yawn, indeed. Your prooftexting (by the way --- prooftexting doesn't mean quoting, it means selectively quoting while intentionally misrepresenting. Which is how you used the JFS quote) of the JFS quote has already been laid bare. While you're yawning and checking your fingernails, would you mind coming up with just one other quote (JFS, or otherwise) that you think shows GAs stating that people from lower kingdoms are genderless? This is the 3rd time I've asked you, two of which were formal CFRs. Surely, since this is all so droll for you, and you are (self-proclaimed) better-read on JFS than any of us, you should be able to easily do this. Or acknowledge that you overextended yourself in this specific instance.
Ahab Posted December 19, 2015 Posted December 19, 2015 1 hour ago, rodheadlee said: The prize we are discussing is specific, the ability to procreate for all eternity. Yep, which is the grand prize, or one of the prizes associated with the grand prize/trophy. But everyone still gets a prize/trophy except for the sons and daughters of Perdition.
Tony Frank Posted December 19, 2015 Posted December 19, 2015 (edited) People can have their genitals surgically mutilated and then claim they have a different “gender,” but they still have the same biological properties with which they were born. Men have never had ovaries, or fallopian tubes, or a uterus, or a cervix, and having their genitals mutilated will not give them those biological properties. Women always have those biological properties, and an operation to become a “man” does not change that. Edited December 19, 2015 by Tony Frank
Calm Posted December 20, 2015 Posted December 20, 2015 Quote Women always have those biological properties No, they don't.
Stargazer Posted December 20, 2015 Posted December 20, 2015 On 12/16/2015 at 8:54 AM, Buckeye said: Not for me. Heavenly Father's role and example do not depend one iota on his body parts. Consider the following. What if it turns out that HF has 12 fingers instead of 10. Would you worship Him any less or reject His plan just because you'd always believed He had 10? Probably not. Okay, now continue with the hypotheticals. Suppose that He is 12 feet tall. Or that He has orange hair. Or that He three eyes. At what point does His physical appearance undermine the plan of salvation for you? And why? For me, the "image of Christ" has nothing to do with body parts. It's entirely due to non-physical attributes and behaviors (charity, brotherly kindness, honesty, etc.). Those are the ways in which we must be "like him." And that's why I do not believe gender has any real function in the plan. Women can become like Christ to the same degree that men can. And men and women - once they become like Christ - can fully understand each other's experiences. There is no difference between the genders once we all become like Christ. Gender is just another "ite" that gets eroded on our way to Zion. That's why Christ never taught gender differences. They're not part of His gospel. At first I was going to say this was ridiculous, but changed my mind. We believe that we will be resurrected into perfect physical bodies, and up to this point I had assumed that this meant I would have fully-functional male sexual organs. And a woman would likewise be equipped appropriate to her gender. But if one considers that Heavenly Father and Mother are the parents of trillions of spirit children, it would seem unlikely that these would be begotten in the same way that mortal humans are begotten. To start with, they're spirits, not embodied beings. Therefore, it isn't necessary that I be equipped with normal mortal male body parts. Perhaps this is what the resurrection will look like for us -- and whether or not we will have appendixes, that's another question. And I definitely want twelve fingers! Just think of the increased typing speed, or the improved guitar-playing! 1
Calm Posted December 20, 2015 Posted December 20, 2015 When Christ and others have appeared in resurrected bodies they are formed in the same fashion as they had in mortality. Either the body is not perfected completely changes after resurrection or perhaps resurrection includes being able to morph the body at will in order to adapt it for a current task or just for fun. 2
Ahab Posted December 20, 2015 Posted December 20, 2015 It is reasonable to think that our resurrected bodies will be different than our mortal bodies considering the fact that our resurrected bodies won't have any blood coursing through the various parts, which at least for males would mean we would need some other way to arouse our "faculties" if we're going to be using them to function appropriately when creating children. But outwardly I expect to look pretty much the same way I look right now except a little more handsome, by whatever means necessary.
Buckeye Posted December 21, 2015 Posted December 21, 2015 11 hours ago, Calm said: When Christ and others have appeared in resurrected bodies they are formed in the same fashion as they had in mortality. Either the body is not perfected completely changes after resurrection or perhaps resurrection includes being able to morph the body at will in order to adapt it for a current task or just for fun. I'm in the morph camp. It makes perfect sense for a god to appear in the form that his children would be most comfortable with. But the human form is far from ideal. Opposable thumbs are great, but other species have better eyes, hearing, and mobility. Fwiw, this view also helps with some problems posed by evolution. If god's body is not the same image as ours, then there's no need for directional evolution. Our body design is simply the result of historical adaptations. What matters in becoming like Christ is charity, not body parts.
CV75 Posted December 21, 2015 Posted December 21, 2015 1 hour ago, Buckeye said: I'm in the morph camp. It makes perfect sense for a god to appear in the form that his children would be most comfortable with. But the human form is far from ideal. Opposable thumbs are great, but other species have better eyes, hearing, and mobility. Fwiw, this view also helps with some problems posed by evolution. If god's body is not the same image as ours, then there's no need for directional evolution. Our body design is simply the result of historical adaptations. What matters in becoming like Christ is charity, not body parts. From what I can see, a mind (spirit) and body (element) of any other configuration would not be representative of God’s image because each component defines the other as godly (D&C 93:33). Animals do not share many attributes of human godliness even though they may possess eternal life and felicity because they are "destined" to an order as opposed to being agents, as are human intelligences (D&C 77:3). Also, spirit and element are not generic substances, but are differentiated according to their kind (everything was created spiritually before naturally, and brings forth after its kind – Moses chapters 2 and 3; and D&C 77:2, which says, “that which is spiritual being in the likeness of that which is temporal; and that which is temporal in the likeness of that which is spiritual; the spirit of man in the likeness of his person, as also the spirit of the beast, and every other creature which God has created.”). The greater and lesser intelligences could easily refer to human and non-human species (Abraham 3:18, and as indicated in D&C 77). Without either human spirit or element working at a fulness of capacity, we can neither be fully charitable nor fully capable of the continuation of the seeds, in other words, continuing after our own kind, in relation both our spirit Father and our spirit descendants. Just like Him! The perfection is not in size, might, speed or sight, but in the particular balance of mind and body which permits the exercise of agency to maximize intelligence, which animals do not have. I don’t think organic evolution has anything to do with it, except to explain what we see as having taken place after the Fall from the terrestrial Creation in order to fill in the billions of years' gap between that prehistoric event (which served as the gateway into a telestial, mortal world) and Adam’s reappearance in this mortal world as we know it some 7,000 years ago.
The Nehor Posted December 21, 2015 Posted December 21, 2015 On December 19, 2015 at 10:36 AM, rodheadlee said: Well do you think " 103 These are athey who are bliars, and csorcerers, and dadulterers, and ewhoremongers, and whosoever loves and makes a lie. " should be allowed to procreate? God thinks they cannot be trusted with the responsibility of parenthood. This does not mean they would have polluted the gene pool which suggests that their inferior genetics make them doomed to extinction. This also brings up the question? Do exalted bodies even have genes to have a corrupted gene pool?
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