Vance Posted July 26, 2016 Posted July 26, 2016 Due to lack of response, I will assume that colrok has no answer.
Calm Posted July 26, 2016 Posted July 26, 2016 (edited) According to his profile, he last visited the board on July 16. Doesn't mean he read this thread. He did post in another thread even though hismost recent posts were in this one. Edited July 26, 2016 by Calm
Vance Posted July 28, 2016 Posted July 28, 2016 On 7/25/2016 at 8:46 PM, Calm said: According to his profile, he last visited the board on July 16. Doesn't mean he read this thread. He did post in another thread even though hismost recent posts were in this one. My post responding to his post is dated July 4. That is at least 11 days BEFORE his most recent post. I do believe that under normal circumstances that is plenty of time to formulate a response, IF he had one.
FormerLDS Posted July 28, 2016 Posted July 28, 2016 Hello friends, The subject or "eternal" or "everlasting" live (same thing) is perhaps the single most confusing subject among LDS. I've been asking LDS the question "Do you have eternal life?" for over thirty years and I can tell you that most LDS will plainly say they have eternal life, but then when confronted with the LDS doctrinal position, their position suddenly changes and "Well, then no one can have eternal life...". It's easy for LDS Christians to point at various passages which seem to support the LDS position while conveniently leaving out all of the many passages where Jesus Christ plainly says the exact opposite. Regardless, for all of us, "eternal life" will either be a free gift given today by Jesus Christ or it will the reward of worthy behavior only be obtained "after the final judgement". Consider 1 John 5:12 "And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life." Those who have eternal life have HIM within us - we have his perfection which meets all obedience requirements for us.
Vance Posted July 29, 2016 Posted July 29, 2016 (edited) 5 hours ago, FormerLDS said: Hello friends, The subject or "eternal" or "everlasting" live (same thing) is perhaps the single most confusing subject among LDS. I've been asking LDS the question "Do you have eternal life?" for over thirty years and I can tell you that most LDS will plainly say they have eternal life, but then when confronted with the LDS doctrinal position, their position suddenly changes and "Well, then no one can have eternal life...". It's easy for LDS Christians to point at various passages which seem to support the LDS position while conveniently leaving out all of the many passages where Jesus Christ plainly says the exact opposite. Regardless, for all of us, "eternal life" will either be a free gift given today by Jesus Christ or it will the reward of worthy behavior only be obtained "after the final judgement". Consider 1 John 5:12 "And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life." The subject of eternal life is, perhaps the single most confusing subject among Evangelicals. Evangelicals mistakenly confuse eternal life with being saved. They also mistakenly think that just a verbal affirmation of Christ automatically results in His Righteousness be place upon the affirmer with no change in sinful disposition. They mistakenly add or subtract from scripture to support their error. Here is a classical example. Quote Those who have eternal life have HIM within us - we have his perfection which meets all obedience requirements for us. What is claimed in this statement is NOT supported by the verse previously quoted. (Nor by any other that I know of.) They continually disregard the plain and simple words of the Lord Jesus Christ in favor of their erroneous interpretation of Paul's. Edited July 29, 2016 by Vance 1
Guest Posted July 29, 2016 Posted July 29, 2016 On December 9, 2015 at 11:26 PM, halconero said: I don't want to derail Five Solas' thread, so I'll continue the conversation here. My position: A proper understanding of Faith, Grace, Works, and the Atonement are properly rooted in understanding the Culture and Language in which they were first described by the New Testament. Specifically, these concepts are rooted in an understanding of Greco-Roman patronage systems, gift economies, divine favour, and their interplay with Jewish Torah laws and rites. Paul did not seek to derail the place of righteous and pious living in the New Testament, and in fact advocated a kinship/patronage system with God out of loving obedience, submission, and action enabled by divine favour, otherwise known as grace. Such notions were translated properly into the King James Version of the Bible, which predated the rise of Cartesian though and Enlightenment rationality. The connotations regarding faith and belief were accurately reflected in the scripture. Human interpretation thereof became muddled by the rise of empirical agnosticism combined with a premium on human thought. Faith and belief this became more associated with concepts of intellectual assent and agreement, and when combined with Protestant beliefs regarding the salvatory nature of Faith resulted in the common notion the a declaration of belief in Jesus as the Son of God was sufficient for salvation. This notion is incorrect and contrary to scripture. --------- FormerLDS' position (as far as I understand, please correct me if I'm wrong): Faith and belief are rooted in humanity's intellectual and spiritual agreement with the truth of Jesus' divinity, saving death, and atoning grace. Human deeds have no place in salvation. This idea has been communicated accurately throughout history since the authorship of the Bible, and is the correct interpretation of scripture, regardless of the age and language of the translation. --------- Ground rules: - Accusations of bias from either side have to be backed up with evidence showing so - Neither side will seek to conclusively speak for the other. - CFR's are acceptable - Any particular translation of scripture may be utilized. Translations may be called into question, but never denied. Thoughts? Please, feel free to comment. And Former, I'm seriously looking forward to this. I have no wish to get personal, or create a place of contention, but hope that in opposition we can better understand the Bible, and what it teahes us regarding Christ and his Salvation that he offers. All books of scripture teach salvation by Grace, especially the Book of Mormon. In fact without Grace, there is no salvation of any kind. For those who don't know this they are spends nag to much time listening to the words of those of the Apostles, living or dead.
Vance Posted July 29, 2016 Posted July 29, 2016 8 minutes ago, Pa Pa said: All books of scripture teach salvation by Grace, especially the Book of Mormon. In fact without Grace, there is no salvation of any kind. ABSOLUTLEY true. One problem is that too many people are operating under an erroneous definition of grace.
FormerLDS Posted July 29, 2016 Posted July 29, 2016 17 hours ago, Vance said: The subject of eternal life is, perhaps the single most confusing subject among Evangelicals. Evangelicals mistakenly confuse eternal life with being saved. They also mistakenly think that just a verbal affirmation of Christ automatically results in His Righteousness be place upon the affirmer with no change in sinful disposition. They mistakenly add or subtract from scripture to support their error. I'm not going to tell you what you believe, but I can say with confidence that LDS "eternal life" is a form of being "saved". Perhaps you should look it up some time, it is after all the single most important subject (again, refer to previous statement about LDS confusion surrounding the subject of eternal life). In case you missed that Sunday School lesson, here's the definition of "Salvation" from "True to the Faith: Salvation (P. 153): Eternal Life, or Exaltation. In the scriptures, the words saved and salvation often refer to eternal life, or exaltation (see Abraham 2:11). Eternal life is to know Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ and dwell with Them forever—to inherit a place in the highest degree of the celestial kingdom (see John 17:3;D&C 131:1–4; 132:21–24). To receive this great gift, we must do more than repent of our sins and be baptized and confirmed by appropriate priesthood authority. Men must receive the Melchizedek Priesthood, and all Church members must make and keep sacred covenants in the temple, including eternal marriage. If we use the word salvation to mean eternal life, none of us can say that we have been saved in mortality. That glorious gift can come only after the Final Judgment.
FormerLDS Posted July 29, 2016 Posted July 29, 2016 18 hours ago, Vance said: What is claimed in this statement is NOT supported by the verse previously quoted. (Nor by any other that I know of.) They continually disregard the plain and simple words of the Lord Jesus Christ in favor of their erroneous interpretation of Paul's. Well, I certainly wouldn't expect you to agree with what I said; it completely contradicts LDS theology after all. Jesus Christ was executed because he freely gave away to anyone who asked Him that which the religious "authorities" of His day claimed could only be obtained by a lifetime of worthy behavior, sacrifice and service. His doctrine threatened the necessity of Jewish laws and ordinances as it still does today.
RevTestament Posted July 29, 2016 Posted July 29, 2016 29 minutes ago, FormerLDS said: Well, I certainly wouldn't expect you to agree with what I said; it completely contradicts LDS theology after all. Jesus Christ was executed because he freely gave away to anyone who asked Him that which the religious "authorities" of His day claimed could only be obtained by a lifetime of worthy behavior, sacrifice and service. His doctrine threatened the necessity of Jewish laws and ordinances as it still does today. Jesus didn't do away with the law - just the necessity of the punishment. He didn't do away with the sin, but made it possible to overcome it so that we are no longer trapped by it. Sin is still sin, and we are not free from it by simply believing in Christ. We must undertake to live in Christ and not to sin anymore or to commit intentional acts of sin in order to remain in Him. A serial killer who says he believes in Jesus is a hypocrite, and is worse than the pharisees, and has no life in him. It is sad that Satan has managed to talk so many people into believing the false doctrines of men based on a phrase or two from Paul. When the scriptures are taken as a whole, the falsehood of the doctrine is evident.
FormerLDS Posted July 29, 2016 Posted July 29, 2016 6 minutes ago, RevTestament said: Jesus didn't do away with the law - just the necessity of the punishment. He didn't do away with the sin, but made it possible to overcome it so that we are no longer trapped by it. Sin is still sin, and we are not free from it by simply believing in Christ. We must undertake to live in Christ and not to sin anymore or to commit intentional acts of sin in order to remain in Him. A serial killer who says he believes in Jesus is a hypocrite, and is worse than the pharisees, and has no life in him. It is sad that Satan has managed to talk so many people into believing the false doctrines of men based on a phrase or two from Paul. When the scriptures are taken as a whole, the falsehood of the doctrine is evident. The difference between the LDS "Jesus Christ" and the true "Jesus Christ" of the Bible is His power to GIVE eternal life right now. That life cleanses us from all sins: past, present and future. In John 5:24, the Savior said these words: "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life." Those who receive His eternal life are no longer dead, but made alive within. Physically speaking I still sin, but, as the apostle Paul said "It is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me." (Romans 7:17-20) Being "born again" means that you receive His life spiritually, just a newborn child receives life. Those who are born again cannot sin (speaking of the spiritual new man). This is clearly seen in 1 John 3:9 "Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God." Friends, this is how those who have His life - His righteousness - meet his perfection requirement.
RevTestament Posted July 29, 2016 Posted July 29, 2016 1 hour ago, FormerLDS said: The difference between the LDS "Jesus Christ" and the true "Jesus Christ" of the Bible is His power to GIVE eternal life right now. That life cleanses us from all sins: past, present and future. In John 5:24, the Savior said these words: "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life." Those who receive His eternal life are no longer dead, but made alive within. Physically speaking I still sin, but, as the apostle Paul said "It is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me." (Romans 7:17-20) Being "born again" means that you receive His life spiritually, just a newborn child receives life. Those who are born again cannot sin (speaking of the spiritual new man). This is clearly seen in 1 John 3:9 "Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God." Friends, this is how those who have His life - His righteousness - meet his perfection requirement. You are reading Paul like a Greek "linear-thinking" person and not a Hebrew person. To believe on Christ is to hear Him and DO His works. Those are who He gives eternal life to. Those who proclaim their belief with their lips but do not do His works are not his disciples and do not have eternal life - they are like the pharisees who thought by doing rote sacrifices they were saved. God told them He was full of their sacrifices - that what He wanted was a repentant heart which is what the sacrifices were supposed to remind them. So despite what you say those who have accepted Jesus can sin. To be born again means to live in Him, which when one does the very idea of sinning is abhorrent, and one avoids intentional sin. It does not mean one cannot sin and fall away. Otherwise there would be no apostasy. The problem lies in getting an accurate translation to adequately reflect this idea. It would be more accurate to say if one is born again, He won't sin - not that it is not possible. He removes the sin from his/her life. You have fallen victim to the Pauline theology of Calvinism it sounds like.
Calm Posted July 30, 2016 Posted July 30, 2016 5 hours ago, FormerLDS said: Jesus Christ was executed because he freely gave away to anyone who asked Him that which the religious "authorities" of His day claimed could only be obtained by a lifetime of worthy behavior, sacrifice and service. His doctrine threatened the necessity of Jewish laws and ordinances as it still does today. So what happened in the case of the rich, young man who was told to give up his wealth and did not? 2
boblloyd91 Posted July 30, 2016 Posted July 30, 2016 27 minutes ago, Calm said: So what happened in the case of the rich, young man who was told to give up his wealth and did not? I know right? He obviously believed in Christ. I was reading 1 John the other day and it's very clear the repentance of sin is not a one time event, but rather something that we need to do on a regular basis. Most of our critics adhere to once saved always saved, a theological innovation of John Calvin.
Five Solas Posted July 30, 2016 Posted July 30, 2016 28 minutes ago, boblloyd91 said: I know right? He obviously believed in Christ. I was reading 1 John the other day and it's very clear the repentance of sin is not a one time event, but rather something that we need to do on a regular basis. Most of our critics adhere to once saved always saved, a theological innovation of John Calvin. You haven't done your homework, boblloyd91. ;0) Christians don't argue repentance is a "one time event." It's worth recalling the very first of Martin Luther's 95 Theses concerned repentance, and it occupies the "whole life of believers." Yes, John Calvin didn't agree with Luther on everything, but that point wasn't in dispute. Mormonism has many critics, not least from Christians who take the Bible seriously. Calvin's Institutes of the Christian Religion would astonish you (I strongly recommend Henry Beveridge's translation--and you can read it online at no cost). Not just Calvin's intellect (which was vast), but how much he really cared about the Bible. No, I don't mean this to say I agree with Calvin on everything (I don't agree with infant baptism, as one example). But invest the time to understand those you think you disagree with, because it could change everything... --Erik
boblloyd91 Posted July 30, 2016 Posted July 30, 2016 1 hour ago, Five Solas said: You haven't done your homework, boblloyd91. ;0) Christians don't argue repentance is a "one time event." It's worth recalling the very first of Martin Luther's 95 Theses concerned repentance, and it occupies the "whole life of believers." Yes, John Calvin didn't agree with Luther on everything, but that point wasn't in dispute. Mormonism has many critics, not least from Christians who take the Bible seriously. Calvin's Institutes of the Christian Religion would astonish you (I strongly recommend Henry Beveridge's translation--and you can read it online at no cost). Not just Calvin's intellect (which was vast), but how much he really cared about the Bible. No, I don't mean this to say I agree with Calvin on everything (I don't agree with infant baptism, as one example). But invest the time to understand those you think you disagree with, because it could change everything... --Erik I will check it out...however I was addressing the assertion all one has to do is confess Christ and everything is immediately forgiven, even future sins (which to me sounds suspiciously like Antimonianism). I'm assuming from what you said that you don't believe that either (wouldn't that be perseverance of the saints in TULIP?) In regards to Calvin, no I haven't read him as in depth as others have, however what I have read certainly did astonish me, but not in a good way. However I appreciate the reference about his institutes and will give them a more in depth look. I think I told you this before, but I have read both Tim Keller and John Piper, prominent theologians from your tribe. The tenets and philosophy of Reformed churches aren't unfamiliar to me. Of course it's important to keep studying, however from what I've read and studied so far it's highly unlikely I will be swayed by arguments from the Reformed camp. Of course I have my biases, just like you have your biases against Mormonism (such as your assertion Mormons don't take the bible seriously). That's why it's nice God is the judge and not you or I!
Vance Posted July 30, 2016 Posted July 30, 2016 (edited) 20 hours ago, FormerLDS said: I'm not going to tell you what you believe . . . If we use the word salvation to mean eternal life, none of us can say that we have been saved in mortality. That glorious gift can come only after the Final Judgment. Well, thank you for telling me what I don't believe. And yet THAT is exactly what evangelicals do. They clam they have eternal life while here in mortality. Edited July 30, 2016 by Vance
Vance Posted July 30, 2016 Posted July 30, 2016 19 hours ago, FormerLDS said: Well, I certainly wouldn't expect you to agree with what I said; it completely contradicts LDS theology after all. Yes it does contradict LDS theology AND is NO WHERE found in the Bible. It is simply the result of faulty logic on top of misinterpretation. I notice that you have not (and can't) provide scriptures to support your false doctrine. Jesus Christ was executed because he freely gave away to anyone who asked Him that which the religious "authorities" of His day claimed could only be obtained by a lifetime of worthy behavior, sacrifice and service. Another false interpretation. John 5: 14 14 Afterward Jesus findeth him in the temple, and said unto him, Behold, thou art made whole: sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee. John 8: 11 11 She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more. Luke 13: 3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish. • • • 5 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish. 21 ¶ Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment: 22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire. 23 Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee; 24 Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift. 25 Agree with thine adversary quickly, whiles thou art in the way with him; lest at any time the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison. 26 Verily I say unto thee, Thou shalt by no means come out thence, till thou hast paid the uttermost farthing. 27 ¶ Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery: 28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart. 29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell. 30 And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell. 31 It hath been said, Whosoever shall put away his wife, let him give her a writing of divorcement: 32 But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery. 33 ¶ Again, ye have heard that it hath been said by them of old time, Thou shalt not forswear thyself, but shalt perform unto the Lord thine oaths: 34 But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God’s throne: 35 Nor by the earth; for it is his footstool: neither by Jerusalem; for it is the city of the great King. 36 Neither shalt thou swear by thy head, because thou canst not make one hair white or black. 37 But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil. 38 ¶ Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: 39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also. 40 And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloke also. 41 And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain. 42 Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away. 43 ¶ Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. 44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; 45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust. 46 For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same? 47 And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so? 48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect. His doctrine threatened the necessity of Jewish laws and ordinances as it still does today. Another false interpretation. He challenged their authority. He gave the HIGHER law. You evangelicals would do well to pay more attention to the red letter portion of the New Testament. It takes preeminence over you false interpretation of Paul. For someone who claims to believe in "sola scriptura", you sure don't demonstrate it. 1
Vance Posted July 30, 2016 Posted July 30, 2016 (edited) 19 hours ago, FormerLDS said: The difference between the LDS "Jesus Christ" and the true "Jesus Christ" of the Bible is His power to GIVE eternal life right now. That life cleanses us from all sins: past, present and future. In John 5:24, the Savior said these words: "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life." Again, more misunderstanding. Jesus taught in Aramaic, a form of Hebrew. Hebrew doesn't have "past, present and future" tenses. The bottom line is that your misunderstanding contradicts other statements of Jesus such as these, Matt. 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. Mark 13:13 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name’s sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. Quote Those who receive His eternal life are no longer dead, but made alive within. I notice that you have no scriptural support for this. Quote This is clearly seen in 1 John 3:9 " Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God."Friends, this is how those who have His life - His righteousness - meet his perfection requirement. Edited July 30, 2016 by Vance 1
Vance Posted July 30, 2016 Posted July 30, 2016 I noticed that you stripped this verse from its context. Let's add some context and see if your statement stands. 6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him. 7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. 8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother. And yet again, the scriptures don't support you claim. 17 But whoso hath this world’s good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him? 18 My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth. 19 And hereby we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before him. 20 For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things. 21 Beloved, if our heart condemn us not, then have we confidence toward God. 22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight. 23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment. 24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us. 1
coolrok7 Posted July 31, 2016 Posted July 31, 2016 (edited) Vance, you assume things that are not correct. I’m still around. Like most here, I have other things I do/responsibilities to take care of. Edited July 31, 2016 by coolrok7
Vance Posted July 31, 2016 Posted July 31, 2016 So, you claim to have an answer, but didn't provide it, and don't have time to provide it. riiiiiiiight
Anakin7 Posted August 1, 2016 Posted August 1, 2016 Have not been here for some period of time and on return I see the same polemics put forth against us. Once again I feel blessed to be persecuted for our Belief and Faith In Jesus Christ and his Awesome Mission and Sacrifice on our behalf. We do not adhere or believe in once saved always saved. Washing My Robes in The Blood Of The Lamb The Atonement It Is The Central Doctrine In His Eternal Debt/Grace Anakin7
FormerLDS Posted August 1, 2016 Posted August 1, 2016 On 7/29/2016 at 7:50 PM, Calm said: So what happened in the case of the rich, young man who was told to give up his wealth and did not? Was his faith in Jesus Christ or his riches?
Recommended Posts