Anakin7 Posted February 15, 2016 Posted February 15, 2016 coolrok I have a few brief moments in time, thank you again for your concern for the welfare of our [LDS] souls we appriciate the time and effort on our behalf. I am sorry if my idiom statements of "True Grace" and "True Faith" that have you bewildered and mystified as to why I use them, it is that there are True and False forms/models of Grace and Faith that abound today so that is how I am and roll so please be understanding of that. In relation to us having a sort of new form of torah or mosaic code in connection with our keeping the commandments [ laws/ordinences ] for True Salvation it is actualy from my lights [ as I have shared in the past] it is a Biblical Christian a client/patron form/model and not a employer/employee form model of True Salvation Soteriology. As you have stated in the past you and lutheranism do not believe in OSAS [ If I have misunderstood I apologize in advance ] so to stay in True Grace we believe that one must stay in True Grace [ Walk In The Light as He - God The Father is in the light so the blood of his Son will cleanse us from all sin ]. And how do we walk in the light of His [Jesus Christ True Grace] ?, by True Faith - pistis = Allegience, Belief, Commitment,Confidence,Dedication,Devotion,Faithfulness,Fidelity,Loyalty,Obedience, - works of True Faith and Trust to the person and work of Christ Jesus. As for the Apostle Paul he was criticizing/responding to reports of those [ Christian Judizers ] who were teaching and boasting of one need to keep the mosaic code/law of Moses to be saved. Our True belief is in a True Love Faith Covenant of Obedience to the person and work of Christ Jesus. I agree that there are those LDS [and non LDS] out there that believe that there own works save them which is not True. True LDS understand that when we come to Jesus Christ to make Him our Lord of Life,Lord,Redeemer,Savior,God,King,Master we must count the cost to follow him [Luke 14:25-35] and allow his awesome Blood Sacrifice [His Grace] to cleanse and and allow that True Grace to change us. For Paul there was no such thing as True Faith without obedience - Romans 1:5 or active Love Gal 5:6. To recieve True Grace one must obtain and keep there inheritence by way of a True Covenant with God - not the Old Covenant of Torah/Law of Moses but the New Covenant written in our Hearts to Jesus Christ - Jeremiah 31: 31-34. Yes we sin and make mistakes that is why there is Repentance. Yes LDS leaders in the past and present teach that one must excercise there True works of Faith to its ultimate potential to be Saved into the Kingdom of God - Luke 13:22-28 the same greek word for strive from my understanding is the same word for Jesus suffereing in the garden of Geshsemane and for athelets in the Olympic games. This is all I have time for now coolrok I will post more later. I have tried with the influence of Grace to be more Christlike,Charitable and kind in this post to you. Recent events have drawn me to trying to be more that way. I hope and pray that True Grace by way of True Faith blesses you and those you love. Will share more when time allows. The Atonement It Is The Central Doctrine Washing My Robes In His Eternal Debt/Grace Anakin7 1
Vance Posted February 16, 2016 Posted February 16, 2016 colrok, We have been over this ad nauseam. 1) Your definition of grace is wrong. 2) You knowingly misrepresent what those verses in 2 Nephi mean. You have been corrected numerous times. 3) You knowingly misrepresent what is taught about Grace, Salvation and eternal life in the LDS Church. You have been corrected numerous times. 4) You misrepresent what Paul really was teaching in Romans. You have been corrected numerous times. So, just keep beating those very dead strawmen you have constructed if you like. You aren't convincing anybody of anything other than your own nature.
Anakin7 Posted February 16, 2016 Posted February 16, 2016 (edited) Vance yes we need The True Grace of Jesus Christ not the one presented to us by anti LDS protestant critic In His Eternal Debt/Grace Anakin7 Edited February 16, 2016 by Anakin7
coolrok7 Posted April 24, 2016 Posted April 24, 2016 (edited) It is not kind nor charitable to twist the truth. Mormon General Authority Milton R. Hunter in his book, “The Gospel Through The Ages,” (1945) had this to say concerning the Bible (additional comments by others): Quote In fact, the New Testament contains. . .teachings. . .of. . .the Man of Galilee. This book, therefore will be our standard of judgment or the norm by which we measure the Gospel truths of all the dispensations. (p.91) We appeal to the Bible to prove. . .truths received through the restoration. . .are in accord with its teachings. (A Marvelous Work and a Wonder, LeGrand Richards, p.1) The doctrines of false teachers will not stand the test when tried by the accepted standards of measurement, the scriptures. (Doctrines of Salvation, Joseph Fielding Smith, p.188) Take up the Bible, compare the religion of the Latter-day Saints with it, and see if it will stand the test. (Journal of Discourses, Brigham Young, 16:46) Anakin7, Vance, I’ve seen from your responses to me over the years that you have a strong disdain for what I have posted in which you both often misrepresent, following along in your church’s misrepresentation’s as well (Be that as it may, I mean no disrespect to you as persons in need of a Savior as all others do, myself included): Quote . . .This second heresy-and it is the prevailing delusion and mania that prevails to this day in the great evangelical body of Protestantism-is the doctrine that we are justified by faith alone, without the works of the law. . . .It is the doctrine that we may be born again simply by confessing the Lord Jesus with our lips while we continue to live in our sins.” (Bruce R. McConkie, BYU Devotional, 1984) “while we continue to live in our sins” is not what is taught or even implied! Following the death of the apostles, revelation ceased. The authority of God was no longer among men. Christianity sickened and died. In time, a new religion grew up in its place—a religion that professed to be Jesus Christ’s Church, but which in reality was a conglomerate of pagan worship and Greek philosophy, “having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof.”. . .that eventually led to the complete apostasy of the true church and the eventual creation of an apostate religion that has been responsible for the extermination of the Messiah’s true followers and the persecution of his chosen people, the Jews. . . . (APOSTASY AND RESTORATION pamphlet, p.9) The realization that the Lord’s true church was not only vulnerable, but destructible, comes as a shock to many people. But if wicked men were able to put to death the Messiah himself, is it so strange that they should have power to destroy his church? (APOSTASY AND RESTORATION pamphlet, p.11) 3. There was a complete apostasy affecting both Catholic and Protestant churches. . . .2. There was a total apostasy affecting the Catholic and Protestant churches. . . . (A UNIFORM SYSTEM FOR TEACHING INVESTIGATORS, Aug. 1961, pp.32, 58) Edited April 24, 2016 by coolrok7
coolrok7 Posted April 24, 2016 Posted April 24, 2016 (edited) The belief system based on Jesus Christ, the Messiah of Israel, known as Christianity, derives its teachings/doctrines/theology from the Old/New Testaments. Jesus nor the apostles taught that the church would be destroyed. The Holy Spirit through Paul said that “some will fall away. . .” in which Mormonism twists into a complete/total apostasy. They did teach that there would be attacks from both outside and inside the church: Quote But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons by means of the hypocrisy of liars seared in their own conscience as with a branding iron, . . .In pointing out these things to the brethren, you will be a good servant of Christ Jesus, constantly nourished on the words of the faith and of the sound doctrine which you have been following. (1 Timothy 4:1-2, 6) 10 Then saith Pilate unto him, Speakest thou not unto me? knowest thou not that I have power to crucify thee, and have power to release thee? 11 Jesus answered, thou couldest have no power at all against me, except it were given thee from above: therefore he that delivered me unto thee hath the greater sin. (John 16:10-11) 21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved. 22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know: 23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain: 24 Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it. (Acts 2:21-24) Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood. For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock. Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them. Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears. (Acts 20:28-31) The Church would be in existence until it was time for His Second Coming: Quote 14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. (Matthew 24:14) Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures (1 Corinthians 15:1-4) 8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth. 9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. 10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; 11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven. (Acts 1:8-11) The charge of pagan worship/Greek philosophy should be directed at your churchs' own teaching on the matter: Quote The Mystery Religions, pagan rivals of Christianity, taught emphatically the doctrine that “men may become Gods.” Hermeticism, which had its rise in Egypt in the secondor third centuries B.C., was a prominent religion in the Mediterranean world during the period of the rise of Christianity. Its literature, The Corpus Hermeticum, professes to be revelations to Hermes from his divine father and teacher. Hermes declared: “We must not shrink from saying that a man on earth is a mortal god, and that God in heaven is an immortal man.” This thought very closely resembles the teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith and of President Lorenzo Snow. (The Gospel Through the Ages, Milton R. Hunter, p.110) Biblically speaking, it is Joseph’s and Lorenzo’s teachings that “very closely resembles the teachings of” “The Mystery Religions, pagan rivals of Christianity, . . .”: Quote And at Lystra there was sitting a certain man, without strength in his feet, lame from his mother’s womb, who had never walked. This man was listening to Paul as he spoke, who, when he had fixed his gaze upon him, and had seen that he had faith to be made well, said with a loud voice, “Stand upright on your feet.” And he leaped up and began to walk. And when the multitudes saw what Paul had done, they raised their voice, saying in the Lycaonian language, “The gods have become like men and have come down to us.” And they began calling Barnabas, Zeus, and Paul, Hermes, because he was the chief speaker. And the priest of Zeus, whose temple was just outside the city, brought oxen and garlands to the gates, and wanted to offer sacrifice with the crowds. But when the apostles, Barnabas and Paul, heard of it, they tore their robes and rushed out into the crowd, crying out and saying, “Men, why are you doing these things? We are also men of the same nature as you, and preach the gospel to you in order that you should turn from these vain things to a living God, WHO MADE THE HEAVEN AND THE EARTH AND THE SEA, AND ALL THAT IS IN THEM. And in the generations gone by He permitted all the nations to go their own ways; and yet He did not leave Himself without witness, in that He did good and gave you rains from heaven and fruitful seasons, satisfying your hearts with food and gladness.” And even saying these things, they with difficulty restrained the crowds from offering sacrifice to them. (Acts 14:8-18; NASB) The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has in part, in their writings, rewritten Biblical teaching concerning specific doctrine (the specific quotes of Mormonism’s teaching I used concerning salvation/exaltation is not a strawman/is not the Biblical teaching). Some additional teaching from Elder McConkie in his book, “Mormon Doctrine,” under the heading of Salvation; Also the Jehovah’s Witnesses teaching of the basic idea of how one obtains salvation for the earthly class, similar to Mormonism’s exaltation (the idea of meriting) but do not obtain godhood which is reserved for those of the heavenly class, a limited # who become Gods according to Russell (which is not at all the Biblical teaching in either case): Quote 1. Unconditional or general salvation, that which comes by grace alone without obedience to gospel law, consists in the mere fact of being resurrected. In this sense salvation is synonymous with immortality; it is the inseperable connection of body and spirit so that the resurrected personage lives forever. . . . 2. Conditional or individual salvation, that which comes by grace coupled with gospel obedience, consists in receiving an inheritance in the celestial kingdom of God. This kind of salvation follows faith repentance, baptism, receipt of the Holy Ghost, and continued righteousness to the end of one’s mortal probation. (D.&C. 20:29; 2 Ne. 9:23-24) 3. Salvation in its true and full meaning is synonymous with exaltation or eternal life and consists in gaining an inheritance in the highest of the three heavens within the celestial kingdom. With few exceptions this is the salvation of which the scriptures speak. It is the salvation which the saints seek. It is of this which the Lord says, “There is no gift greater than the gift of salvation.” This full salvation is obtained in and through the continuation of the family unit in eternity, and those who obtain it are gods. (D.&C. 131:1-4; 132.) Thus, brothers and sisters, along with the great and free gift of the universal and personal resurrection there is also the personal possibility of meriting eternal life. (The Ensign, Elder Neal A. Maxwell, 1997, p.23) Hence, before adopting them as his free sons through Jesus Christ, Jehovah God will subject all these perfected human creatures to a thorough test for all time. . . .Jehovah God will justify, declare righteous, on the basis of their own merit all perfected humans who have withstood that final, decisive test of mankind. He will adopt and acknowledge them as his sons through Jesus Christ. (Romans 8:33) (LIFE EVERLASTING—IN FREEDOM OF THE SONS OF GOD, pp.398, 400) . . .Our high calling is so great, so much above the comprehension of men, that they feel that we are guilty of blasphemy when we speak of being “new creatures”—not any longer human, but “partakers of the “divine nature.” When we claim on the scriptural warrant, that we are begotten of a divine nature and that Jehovah is thus our father, it is claiming that we are divine beings—hence all such are Gods. Thus we have a family of God, Jehovah being our father, and all his sons being brethren and joint-heirs; Jesus being the chief, or first-born. . . . [See article “Who Can Hear It”—November Number, 1881, Z. W. T.] (Zion’s Watch Tower, December 1881, p.301) Edited April 24, 2016 by coolrok7
thesometimesaint Posted April 24, 2016 Posted April 24, 2016 Coolroc7: So? " For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive". SEE 1 Corinthians 15:22 Parable of Sheep and Goats SEE Matthew 25:31-46
coolrok7 Posted April 24, 2016 Posted April 24, 2016 (edited) "So?" The answer to this is that the "all" is the believers (the sheep). Not everyone being resurrected get eternal life but some (the goats) to eternal punishment/damnation (not the Mormon definition, see below). Quoting Jesus: Quote Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. (John 5:28-29) By the way, Matthew 25 is not a parable but is the Second Coming of Jesus!. Quote What is Eternal Punishment? If preaching to the spirits, bringing them to a knowledge of the truth, and being baptized for them releases them from their prison, it logically follows that there must be an end to future punishment. We hear the question: “Do not the scriptures say that it is ‘eternal punishment’ and ‘everlasting punishment’?” Yes, but let us not put a private interpretation on these terms. Let us correctly understand their meaning. Eternal punishment is God’s punishment; everlasting punishment is God’s punishment. In other words, it is the name of the punishment God inflicts, he being eternal in his nature. Whosoever, therefore, receives God’s punishment, whether it is endured one hour, one day, one week, one year, or an age. . . . (PLAN OF SALVATION, pamphlet, p.25) Edited April 24, 2016 by coolrok7
thesometimesaint Posted April 24, 2016 Posted April 24, 2016 1 hour ago, coolrok7 said: "So?" The answer to this is that the "all" is the believers (the sheep). Not everyone being resurrected get eternal life but some (the goats) to eternal punishment/damnation (not the Mormon definition, see below). Quoting Jesus: By the way, Matthew 25 is not a parable but is the Second Coming of Jesus!. Salvation for the dead is Resurrection, and Resurrection is for all. Eternal Life is Gods' life. No. We don't turn into goats and sheep. It is a parable of what happens after we die.
RevTestament Posted April 24, 2016 Posted April 24, 2016 3 hours ago, coolrok7 said: The belief system based on Jesus Christ, the Messiah of Israel, known as Christianity, derives its teachings/doctrines/theology from the Old/New Testaments. Jesus nor the apostles taught that the church would be destroyed. The Holy Spirit through Paul said that “some will fall away. . .” in which Mormonism twists into a complete/total apostasy. They did teach that there would be attacks from both outside and inside the church: And the Father Himself taught that all nations would be led astray by the false prophet in the book of Revelation. Revelation 17:15 And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues. The Church does not teach that everyone completely apostacized from the Lord, but that the church lost the authority of the Lord to act in His name. There have always been Christians who repented of their sins and believed in Christ since the beginning of the faith.
RevTestament Posted April 24, 2016 Posted April 24, 2016 2 hours ago, coolrok7 said: By the way, Matthew 25 is not a parable but is the Second Coming of Jesus!. If you look, you will see that those who learn the parable of the fig tree are those who will be resurrected.
Bobbieaware Posted April 24, 2016 Posted April 24, 2016 (edited) 3 hours ago, coolrok7 said: "So?" The answer to this is that the "all" is the believers (the sheep). Not everyone being resurrected get eternal life but some (the goats) to eternal punishment/damnation (not the Mormon definition, see below). Quoting Jesus: By the way, Matthew 25 is not a parable but is the Second Coming of Jesus!. It's always interesting to observe critical non-members of the LDS Church as they attempt to explain what the Latter-day Saints supposedly believe, and then rmiss the mark. For your information, the Latter-day Saints DO happen to believe everlasting punishment lasts for ever.: We believe those among the human family who steadfastly refuse to come unto Christ, until it's everlastingly too late, will suffer in hell forever... 28 And while we were yet in the Spirit, the Lord commanded us that we should write the vision; for we beheld Satan, that old serpent, even the devil, who rebelled against God, and sought to take the kingdom of our God and his Christ— 29 Wherefore, he maketh war with the saints of God, and encompasseth them round about. 30 And we saw a vision of the sufferings of those with whom he made war and overcame, for thus came the voice of the Lord unto us: 31 Thus saith the Lord concerning all those who know my power, and have been made partakers thereof, and suffered themselves through the power of the devil to be overcome, and to deny the truth and defy my power— 32 They are they who are the sons of perdition, of whom I say that it had been better for them never to have been born; 33 For they are vessels of wrath, doomed to suffer the wrath of God, with the devil and his angels in eternity; 34 Concerning whom I have said there is no forgiveness in this world nor in the world to come— 35 Having denied the Holy Spirit after having received it, and having denied the Only Begotten Son of the Father, having crucified him unto themselves and put him to an open shame. 36 These are they who shall go away into the lake of fire and brimstone, with the devil and his angels— (D&C 76) Edited April 24, 2016 by Bobbieaware
Anakin7 Posted April 25, 2016 Posted April 25, 2016 I have been gone for a period of time, and once again see that our Missouri Lutheran Synod critic coolrok7 is back to show us the error of our way . The Atonement It Is the Central Doctrine Washing My Robes in The Blood Of The Lamb In His Eternal Debt/Grace Anakin7
Jim Stiles Posted April 26, 2016 Posted April 26, 2016 On 4/25/2016 at 0:14 AM, Anakin7 said: I have been gone for a period of time, and once again see that our Missouri Lutheran Synod critic coolrok7 is back to show us the error of our way . The Atonement It Is the Central Doctrine Washing My Robes in The Blood Of The Lamb In His Eternal Debt/Grace Anakin7 The name of the denomination is Lutheran Church Missouri Synod (LCMS). Hans Fiene is a LCMS pastor who made the following YouTube video: He also made this one:
Jim Stiles Posted April 26, 2016 Posted April 26, 2016 This video shows what Hans Fiene looks like. He also makes the point that some of the DNA from the greatest enemy of the Davidic line to Christ (Jezebel) was present in the spilt blood of Jesus.
Anakin7 Posted April 26, 2016 Posted April 26, 2016 7 hours ago, Jim Stiles said: This video shows what Hans Fiene looks like. He also makes the point that some of the DNA from the greatest enemy of the Davidic line to Christ (Jezebel) was present in the spilt blood of Jesus.
Anakin7 Posted April 26, 2016 Posted April 26, 2016 (edited) Jim thank you for the correction on the official name - Lutheran Church Missouri synod, I was tired and typed the Church title name wrong. The cartoon does not do much for me other than some reminders of past conversations with reformed christians who love to try and trap LDS missionaries and members using reformed doctrinal criticisms of 2 Nephi 25:23. One response to this - http://www.yorkshiretales.com/allaboutmormonism/page_shafovaloff_flunks_the_2_nephi_2523_test.html Which from my lights is superior to your cartoon link. May True Grace be with you and those you love. Washing My Robes In His Blood The Atonement it Is The Central Doctrine In His Eternal Debt/Grace Anakin7 Edited April 26, 2016 by Anakin7 Additioncoorction 1
RevTestament Posted April 26, 2016 Posted April 26, 2016 10 hours ago, Jim Stiles said: The name of the denomination is Lutheran Church Missouri Synod (LCMS). Hans Fiene is a LCMS pastor who made the following YouTube video: Cute if not slightly absurd video. Of course it takes an extremely literalistic interpretation of scripture which is a fault of the OSAS crowd. That we are "saved by grace after all we can do" means that we are not excused from following the law. We are asked by God to love our neighbor as ourselves which we fall short of. Jesus' grace makes up the difference of where we fail if we are repentant. There is no reason to give us the law if we are not expected to follow it because grace makes up for even our intentional misbehavior - this brings us to the heart of Jesus' law - the law is about our intentions - if our intentions are good then his grace applies to save us where we fail, but if our intentions turn bad because someone made us mad, and we intentionally go kill that person because we expect His grace to save us, then even OSAS people say that such a person was not REALLY converted to Christ in the first place, and was never saved - which is a copout of their literal interpretation.
Anakin7 Posted April 26, 2016 Posted April 26, 2016 (edited) Then there is the Ancient Christian/Biblical middle eastern form/model concept of patron/client salvation/soteriology that fits into the equation as well. Washing My Robes In The Blood Of The Lamb The Atonement It Is The Central doctrine In His Eternal Debt/Grace Anakin7 Edited April 26, 2016 by Anakin7
Jim Stiles Posted April 26, 2016 Posted April 26, 2016 8 hours ago, Anakin7 said: Jim thank you for the correction on the official name - Lutheran Church Missouri synod, I was tired and typed the Church title name wrong. The cartoon does not do much for me other than some reminders of past conversations with reformed christians who love to try and trap LDS missionaries and members using reformed doctrinal criticisms of 2 Nephi 25:23. One response to this - http://www.yorkshiretales.com/allaboutmormonism/page_shafovaloff_flunks_the_2_nephi_2523_test.html Which from my lights is superior to your cartoon link. May True Grace be with you and those you love. Washing My Robes In His Blood The Atonement it Is The Central Doctrine In His Eternal Debt/Grace Anakin7 There is no cartoons at your link. LOL. I have a TBM brother who is as avid a cartoon watcher as his younger children. Quote “Repent and be baptised, every one of you. And ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost It is impossible to take a command by Peter and interpret it to mean that one must be baptized in order to be saved. Imperative statements have no propositional value and cannot be used to infer an indicative statement. Sacerdotal Christians (Lutherans, Catholics, Orthodox, Disciples of Christ) use other verses to prove, in their own minds, that baptism is absolutely required for salvation. The following is a quote in the cited web page of Shafovaloff: Quote “2 Nephi 25:23 is a key text by which Mormons identify and distinguish their view of grace, repentance, works, and merit. It has consistently functioned in Mormonism as a text speaking of the prerequisite conditions for receiving forgiveness, eternal life, and exaltation, although some neo-orthodox Mormon revisionists are attempting to recast it as being about receiving grace in spite of all the conditions that we can't fulfil.” Spencer Kimball's Miracle of Forgiveness interprets 2 Nephi 25:23 in the same manner as Shafovaloff claims the LDS officially interprets the verse. I will follow up with more detail.
Anakin7 Posted April 27, 2016 Posted April 27, 2016 JS sorry no cartoons in my above link, but the written text responds to the critical 2 Nephi 25:23 criticism thrown our way adinfinintum. Spencer W. Kimball's view is Christian and Biblical. Baptism was a necessary ordinance to enter into to accept/access/activate Jesus Christ's True Grace anciently. Must go will be back at another time. The Atonement It Is The Central Doctrine Washing My Robes In The Blood of The Lamb In His Eternal Debt/Grace Anakin7
Bobbieaware Posted April 27, 2016 Posted April 27, 2016 (edited) 1 hour ago, Jim Stiles said: There is no cartoons at your link. LOL. I have a TBM brother who is as avid a cartoon watcher as his younger children. It is impossible to take a command by Peter and interpret it to mean that one must be baptized in order to be saved. Imperative statements have no propositional value and cannot be used to infer an indicative statement. Sacerdotal Christians (Lutherans, Catholics, Orthodox, Disciples of Christ) use other verses to prove, in their own minds, that baptism is absolutely required for salvation. The following is a quote in the cited web page of Shafovaloff: Spencer Kimball's Miracle of Forgiveness interprets 2 Nephi 25:23 in the same manner as Shafovaloff claims the LDS officially interprets the verse. I will follow up with more detail. In order for your faulty interpretation of 2 Nephi 25:23 to be correct, you'd have to throw out the rest of the Book of Mormon, including all the other verses in 2 Nephi chapter 25. All Nephi is trying to teach in that famous verse is if one desires to receive the grace of God in any given situation, there are certain things he can do to cause God to more readily open the windows of heaven to pour out his blessings. For example, read the following: 7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you: 8 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened. (Matthew 7) In verse 23 of 2 Nephi 25, the things that the people were expected to do in order to receive God's saving grace were to believe in Christ and be reconciled to God through sincere repentance and faith in Christ's atonement. Questions: Do you believe Christians who pray will receive greater outpourings of grace? Or do you believe there's no special benefit to prayer? If you don't believe there's any benefit to prayer, what do you think the Savior was trying to teach in the above verses? Edited April 27, 2016 by Bobbieaware
Guest Posted April 27, 2016 Posted April 27, 2016 On December 9, 2015 at 4:40 PM, The Nehor said: Finally someone is addressing the elephant in the room of faith and works and grace. He is not an Elephant, he is a teddy bear warm and soft and makes sense of all other doctrines, that invite us to know God.
Jim Stiles Posted April 27, 2016 Posted April 27, 2016 (edited) 17 hours ago, Jim Stiles said: ... Spencer Kimball's Miracle of Forgiveness interprets 2 Nephi 25:23 in the same manner as Shafovaloff claims the LDS officially interprets the verse. I will follow up with more detail. While my Internet was out, I discovered a copy of the entire text of Miracle of Forgiveness on my hard drive. Quote One of the most fallacious doctrines originated by Satan and propounded by man is that man is saved alone by the grace of God; that belief in Jesus Christ alone is all that is needed for salvation. Along with all the other works necessary for man's exaltation in the kingdom of God this could rule out the need for repentance. It could give license for sin and, since it does not require man to work out his salvation, could accept instead lip service, death-bed "repentance," and shallow, meaningless confession of sin. Church members are fortunate indeed to have scriptures brought forth in this age which clarify this and other doctrinal questions beyond all doubt. One passage in the Book of Mormon, written perhaps with the same intent as Paul's statement above-to stress and induce appreciation for the gracious gift of salvation offered on condition of obedience-is particularly enlightening: For we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do. ( 2 Ne. 25:23 . Italics added.) And the Lord further emphasized the fact: And no unclean thing can enter into his kingdom; therefore nothing entereth into his rest save it be those who have washed their garments in my blood, because of their faith, and the repentance of all their sins, and their faithfulness unto the end. Now this is the commandment: Repent, all ye ends of the earth, and come unto me and be baptized in my name, that ye may be sanctified by the reception of the Holy Ghost, that ye may stand spotless before me at the last day. ( 3 Ne. 27:19-20 .) This is a very definition of works-righteousness. Edited April 27, 2016 by Jim Stiles word usage
thesometimesaint Posted April 27, 2016 Posted April 27, 2016 We don't believe in deathbed repentance. Apparently neither did Jesus. SEE The woman taken in adultery. https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John+8:1-11 SEE Goats and sheep https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+25:31-46 SEE Judged by works. http://biblehub.com/revelation/20-12.htm I've got plenty more if you want them.
Jim Stiles Posted April 28, 2016 Posted April 28, 2016 On 4/27/2016 at 3:12 PM, thesometimesaint said: We don't believe in deathbed repentance. Apparently neither did Jesus. SEE The woman taken in adultery. https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John+8:1-11 SEE Goats and sheep https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+25:31-46 SEE Judged by works. http://biblehub.com/revelation/20-12.htm I've got plenty more if you want them. Quote Luke 23:39-43 And one of the malefactors which were hanged railed on him, saying, If thou be Christ, save thyself and us. But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation? And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss. And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom. And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise. So much for Jesus rejecting death bed confessions. Quote Revelation 20:12 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds. Gee, what will those people who shocked the genitalia of young male homosexuals while showing them homosexual pornography do? Those men who told young women that their family's only hope for salvation was for them to marry and have sex with a much older man who already had multiple wives, what will they do? Since they have rejected the only hope for salvation in the world, what will they do?
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