Notions of Grace, Works, the Law, and Faith in the New Testament

[coolrok7]

So are you a part of this Jesus family group. Is it a part of the only true church?

[Anakin7]

    No I am a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, however just as Joseph Smith Jr  believed in that all christian churches teach some trurhs which he accepted into his bosom and heart yet there were other teachings he could not accept into his bosom and heart. The above link had some truths contained therin. I noticed you did not critique or refute there position. May True Grace be with you this Holiday season and beyond.

In His Eternal Debt/Grace

            Anakin7

[filovirus]

On Sunday, December 20, 2015 at 9:16 AM, coolrok7 said:

I'm often criticized by those here as misrepresenting what is taught by Mormon General authorities. I don't think I am.

Can you provide some examples?

This is what President Uchtdorf said in April General Conference 2015:

"Salvation cannot be bought with the currency of obedience; it is purchased by the blood of the Son of God.²⁶ Thinking that we can trade our good works for salvation is like buying a plane ticket and then supposing we own the airline. Or thinking that after paying rent for our home, we now hold title to the entire planet earth.

If grace is a gift of God, why then is obedience to God’s commandments so important? Why bother with God’s commandments—or repentance, for that matter? Why not just admit we’re sinful and let God save us?

Or, to put the question in Paul’s words, “Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?” Paul’s answer is simple and clear: “God forbid.”²⁷

Brothers and sisters, we obey the commandments of God—out of love for Him!"

This is from Elder Oaks in April General Conference 1998:

"Many Bible verses declare that Jesus came to take away the sins of the world (e.g., John 1:29; Matt. 26:28). The New Testament frequently refers to the grace of God and to salvation by grace (e.g., John 1:17; Acts 15:11; Eph. 2:8). But it also has many specific commandments on personal behavior, and many references to the importance of works (e.g., Matt. 5:16; Eph. 2:10; James 2:14–17). In addition, the Savior taught that we must endure to the end in order to be saved (see Matt. 10:22; Mark 13:13).

Relying upon the totality of Bible teachings and upon clarifications received through modern revelation, we testify that being cleansed from sin through Christ’s Atonement is conditioned upon the individual sinner’s faith, which must be manifested by obedience to the Lord’s command to repent, be baptized, and receive the Holy Ghost (see Acts 2:37–38). “Verily, verily, I say unto thee,” Jesus taught, “Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God” (John 3:5; see also Mark 16:16; Acts 2:37–38). Believers who have had this required rebirth at the hands of those having authority have already been saved from sin conditionally, but they will not be saved finally until they have completed their mortal probation with the required continuing repentance, faithfulness, service, and enduring to the end.

Some Christians accuse Latter-day Saints who give this answer of denying the grace of God through claiming they can earn their own salvation. We answer this accusation with the words of two Book of Mormon prophets. Nephi taught, “For we labor diligently … to persuade our children … to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do” (2 Ne. 25:23). And what is “all we can do”? It surely includes repentance (see Alma 24:11) and baptism, keeping the commandments, and enduring to the end. Moroni pleaded, “Yea, come unto Christ, and be perfected in him, and deny yourselves of all ungodliness; and if ye shall deny yourselves of all ungodliness, and love God with all your might, mind and strength, then is his grace sufficient for you, that by his grace ye may be perfect in Christ” (Moro. 10:32).

We are not saved in our sins, as by being unconditionally saved through confessing Christ and then, inevitably, committing sins in our remaining lives (see Alma 11:36–37). We are saved from our sins (see Hel. 5:10) by a weekly renewal of our repentance and cleansing through the grace of God and His blessed plan of salvation (see 3 Ne. 9:20–22)."

[coolrok7]

Filovirus, I’ve already provided the context for “faith alone” (see Romans 4:1-7 for example) in the Protestant understanding of our Justification before God in what Paloma had stated.

 

The term “Faith alone” (in other words) derives from the Biblical teaching concerning Justification and is not the faith alone of James as Paloma pointed out.

 

This understanding is characterized by Mormon General Authorities as “Erroneous teaching”, “heresy”, “delusion and mania”, “false doctrine”. All of which are false charges.

 

The quotes of Elder Oaks have the given Mormon understanding of these terms which have different meanings assigned. I know I’ve listened to this being done over the years.

 

He says here in part (I was at a local Mormon Stake during Conference when Elder Oaks gave this talk on, “Have You Been Saved?” in April of 1998. I was with some sister missionaries at the time (they had delivered a KJV Bible to me, advertised by the Mormon Church):

 

Relying upon the totality of Bible teachings and upon clarifications received through modern revelation, . . .

[coolrok7]

The Mormon understanding ultimately arrives at different conclusions by the very subtle at times twisting of, adding to, and taking away from Scripture by Joseph Smith/those who follow him:

 

. . .it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do. . . (2 Nephi 25:23b; JOSEPH SMITH JUNIOR, AUTHOR AND PROPRIETER- from the first printing of the Book of Mormon)

 

You May Earn Salvation through Christ (THE PURPOSE OF LIFE pamphlet, p.4)

 

By revelation, our Savior made known again the plan of salvation and exaltation. Resurrection comes as a gift to every man through Jesus Christ, but the reward of the highest eternal opportunities you must earn. It is not just enough to believe in Jesus Christ. You must work and learn, search and pray, repent and improve, know his laws and live them. (YOUR PRE-EARTH LIFE pamphlet, p.10)

 

Thus, brothers and sisters, along with the great and free gift of the universal and personal resurrection there is also the personal possibility of meriting eternal life. (The Ensign, Elder Neal A. Maxwell, 1997, p.23)

 

It is through the grace of the Lord Jesus, made possible by his atoning sacrifice. . .This grace is an enabling power that allows men and women to lay hold on eternal life and exaltation after they have expended their own best efforts. . . .(AFTER ALL WE CAN DO. . .GRACE WORKS, Robert L. Millet, p.18)

[Zakuska]

8 minutes ago, coolrok7 said:

The Mormon understanding ultimately arrives at different conclusions by the very subtle at times twisting of, adding to, and taking away from Scripture by Joseph Smith/those who follow him:

 

 

hey coolrok7, Those quotes sound just like the Gospel according to Paul...

Romans 2

6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;1 

Edited January 7, 2016 by Zakuska

[boblloyd91]

I think it's fair to say that sometimes Mormons can be Pelagean, but it's also fair to say that Evangelicals can be Antimonian....

[coolrok7]

I have no problems with the verses you cited. Now go and do a word search and give the verses (KJV) where the terms I quoted from Mormon general Authorities show up.

[halconero]

Hi everyone, I apologize for abandoning this prematurely. My computer hard drive busted the day after I posted, between that and holidays in China I ditched this for a bit.

I think it would help the discussion regarding the New Testament and whether its conceptualization of grace, faith, works, and salvation matches up with a Latter-day Saint understanding if we worked through a few chapters and verses in their entirety. There's been a lot parsing of verses both here and in other threads, books, scholastic works, etc, which leave the context something to be desired. It's something I know I've been guilty of.

But alas, my allotted computer time at my local library is up, so I'll post tomorrow.

[boblloyd91]

I like that idea, these kind of discussions are important

2 minutes ago, halconero said:

Hi everyone, I apologize for abandoning this prematurely. My computer hard drive busted the day after I posted, between that and holidays in China I ditched this for a bit.

I think it would help the discussion regarding the New Testament and whether its conceptualization of grace, faith, works, and salvation matches up with a Latter-day Saint understanding if we worked through a few chapters and verses in their entirety. There's been a lot parsing of verses both here and in other threads, books, scholastic works, etc, which leave the context something to be desired. It's something I know I've been guilty of.

But alas, my allotted computer time at my local library is up, so I'll post tomorrow.

 

[coolrok7]

The Gospel according to Paul is:

 

Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures (1 Corinthians 15:1-4)

 

Zak, the quotes in Romans 2 you provided, also from Paul, are not the specifics of the Gospel but Paul expanding the points he is making concerning Jews and Gentiles in how they relate to what he was saying in regards to how God judges those who reject the truth of God.

[coolrok7]

The Mormon teaching concerning “EXALTATION” in the 1985 GOSPEL PRINCIPLES manual (I took the class around Nov. 1988 at the Westminster, Third Ward, taught by Lehi Pitchforth, an older member of the Ward, not a missionary):

 

REQUIREMENTS FOR EXALTATION

 

. . .There are specific ordinances we must have received to be exalted:

 

1. We must be baptized and confirmed a member of the

    Church of Jesus Christ.

 

2. We must receive the Holy Ghost.

 

3. We must receive the temple endowment.

 

4. We must be married for time and eternity.

 

In addition to the required ordinances, there are also many laws we have to obey to qualify for exaltation—We must. . . (p.291)

 

This is the way our Heavenly Father became a God. . . .Joseph Smith taught, “it is the first principle of the Gospel to know for a certainty the character of God. . .he was once a man like us, . . .God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ himself did” (p.293; Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, pp.345-46[King Follet Discourse])

[coolrok7]

In a Church temple preparation teaching manual concerning Celestial marriage (D&C 132 which also teaches a plurality of wives), The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints teaches the following doctrine (eternal progression):

 

 

Quote

As shown in this chapter our Father in heaven was once a man as we are now, capable of physical death. By obedience to eternal gospel principles, he progressed from one stage of life to another until he attained the state that we call exaltation or godhood. In such a condition, he and our mother in heaven were empowered to give birth to spirit children whose potential was equal to that of their heavenly parents. We are those spirit children. . . .It is this fact that makes marriage in a temple of God such an important step in our eternal progression. Elder Bruce R. McConkie has written this: “Celestial marriage is a holy and an eternal ordinance;. . .The most important things that any member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints ever does in this world are: 1. To marry the right person, by the right authority; and 2., to keep the covenant made in connection with this holy and perfect order of matrimony--thus assuring the obedient persons of an inheritance of exaltation in the celestial kingdom.” (Mormon Doctrine, p.118) (Achieving a Celestial Marriage, Salt Lake City: Church Education System, 1976, 1992, p.132)

 

The Gospel of the Son of God that has been revealed is a plan or system of laws and ordinances, by strict obedience to which the people who inhabit this earth are assured that they may return again into the presence of the Father and the Son. (quoted in the pamphlet entitled, BRIGHAM YOUNG PROPHET STATESMAN PIONEER, 11/81; JOURNAL OF DISCOURSES, 13:233, Brigham Young)

 

Our Heavenly Parents have through aeons of time and a multitude of experiences gradually become acquainted with and applied in Their lives an untold number of these everlasting laws. As they learned these verities and how to operate them, these laws thereby became subject unto Elohim and henceforth were His laws—or, in other words, the Gospel of Jesus Christ. (The Gospel Through the Ages, Milton R. Hunter, 1945, p.4)

Edited January 8, 2016 by coolrok7
adding a date, line correction

[Zakuska]

3 hours ago, coolrok7 said:

The Gospel according to Paul is:

 

 

 

Zak, the quotes in Romans 2 you provided, also from Paul, are not the specifics of the Gospel but Paul expanding the points he is making concerning Jews and Gentiles in how they relate to what he was saying in regards to how God judges those who reject the truth of God.

His words also have to do with how God judges those who accept the truth as well. you can't seperate judgement from Salvation.

 

[Anakin7]

    We are Saved by way of True Grace [charis] by way of True Faith [pistis].  Amen !.

In His Eternal Debt/Grace

             Anakin7

[coolrok7]

Also "not of works" Anakin7 and resurrection is not necessarily to eternal life but also to eternal punishment, depending on whether or not one is a sheep or a goat. The gift being eternal life is receiving a glorified body, at the Second Coming, like the one Jesus had in which we will, "be like him", not His Deity

Zak, believers are already judged at the cross. What I stated in no way denies God's Judgment for any of us.

Edited January 9, 2016 by coolrok7
statement changed conceerning judgment

[coolrok7]

What happens here is that the Biblical gift of eternal life, already promised for all believers (the sheep in Matthew 25), is attempted to be put in the Mormon context of obedience to law and temple ordinances (“Earn Salvation” in the earlier referenced pamphlet), introduced in the BofM by the phrase, "after all we can do" which were never a part of the Old/New Testament.

 

Jesus as the Jewish Messiah, observed/obeyed the Law of Moses perfectly (His work) in which we derive our salvation by grace through faith in Him.

 

In Mormonism a distortion takes place wherein, "Resurrection comes as a gift" while eternal life (exaltation to Godhood) is earned/merited/worked for.

 

Sanctification (being set apart for works of service), post the moment of our Justification (when a person accepts Jesus' sacrifice under conviction by the Holy Spirit) is the sequence of both obtaining/maintaining ones standing before God as one who is Justified/Sanctified, once a sinner, now a saint, believer, Christian, follower of Jesus Christ, etc..

 

Jesus/John had this to say concerning resurrection/eternal life:

 

Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. (John 5:28-29)

 

Jesus said to him, “Thomas, because you have seen Me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.” And truly Jesus did many other signs in the presence of His disciples, which are not written in this book; but these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His name. (John 20:29-30)

 

¹¹ And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. ¹² He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. ¹³ These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God. (1 John 5:11-13)

[Anakin7]

    Thats right coolrock7 no works of the Law of Moses or self rightious works will save you only those labors of Love to serve The Father/Son/Holy Ghost Spirit by way Accepting/Accessing/Activating True Grace and for staying in True Grace by way of True Faith, Walkng in the light. Thanks for the reminder.                                   

       In His Eternal Debt/Grace

                    Anakin7

[coolrok7]

Because of having an inherited sinful nature in our conception (which is why one needs to be "born again"), one can never follow the law perfectly as Jesus did (for us in our place in which He became the sacrificial:” Lamb of God”; He who knew no sin became sin):

 

²⁹ The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

 

 ²¹  For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him. (2 Corinthians 5:21)

 

His righteousness is given to us through faith. Jesus' shed blood is what redeems/justifies us from the curse of the law in that He fulfilled it perfectly:

 

For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins. (Matthew 26:28)

 

Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. (Romans 5:9)

 

What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, even the righteousness which is by faith; but Israel, pursuing a law of righteousness, did not arrive at that law. Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as though it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone, just as it is written, “BEHOLD, I LAY IN ZION A STONE OF STUMBLING AND A ROCK OF OFFENSE, AND HE WHO BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED.” Brethren, my heart’s desire and my prayer to God for them is for their salvation. For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not in accordance with knowledge. For not knowing about God’s righteousness, and seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God. For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes. (Romans 9:30-10:4)

 

O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? ² This only would I learn of you, received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? ³ Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh? ⁴ Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain. ⁵ He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? ⁶ Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness. ⁷ Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham. ⁸ And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, in thee shall all nations be blessed. ⁹ So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham. ¹⁰ For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them. ¹¹ But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, the just shall live by faith. ¹² And the law is not of faith: but, the man that doeth them shall live in them. ¹³ Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree: ¹⁴ That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith. (Galatians 3:1-14)

 

Finally, brethren, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is of good repute, if there is any excellence and if anything worthy of praise, let your mind dwell on these things. The things you have learned and received and heard and seen in me, practice these things; and the God of peace shall be with you. (Philippians 4:8-9)

[Anakin7]

    Must go to work , thanks for the reminder coolrok !.

In His Eternal Debt/Grace

                Anakin7

[coolrok7]

Anakin7, or obedience to Joseph Smith. . .

[Anakin7]

 Or obedience to Peter James John along with any other of his True Prophets/Apostles as well. Thanks again for your unChristlike uncharitable posts they really do not inspire me.

 

In His Eternal Debt/Grace

              Anakin7

[coolrok7]

The fangs come out again. I've answered the false charges of Mormonism which includes you Anakin7 and those here who falsely accuse me of things I'm not guilty of.

I've provided the context for my statements in defense of the Biblical positions I hold to and the unbiblical position Mormons hold to.

[Anakin7]

    No fangs coolrok, where do you get that interpetation thereof ?. And we have responded to you adinfinentum as well and shown we are True Biblical Christians. May You recieve True Grace by way of True Faith.

IN His Eternal Debt/Grace

              Anakin7

[coolrok7]

We go way back to the days of ZLMB  Anakin7. I think I can tell when your responses aren't being very civil (going from "thanks for the reminder" twice in two posts to what I quote below as if I haven't received the grace of God in my life and have true faith in which you aren't qualified to judge me personally, I don't judge you personally when it comes to your own stated faith but I can make judgments based on what you say in how it contrasts with Biblical Scripture.

If I'm wrong in what I've stated and it can be demonstrated, then I wouldn't have any problems with any corrections as needed.

Your specific issue, it seems to me, is that I don't accept Joseph Smith as a "true prophet of God" which is your prerogative.

Responding and actually answering the specific issues raised doesn't necessarily equate at times.

Quote

. . .we have responded to you adinfinentum as well and shown we are True Biblical Christians. May You recieve True Grace by way of True Faith. . . .

 

Edited January 10, 2016 by coolrok7
quote needed to be modified