Notions of Grace, Works, the Law, and Faith in the New Testament

[filovirus]

8 hours ago, Five Solas said:

Right.  And of these "6000 hits" - cite one that gives a workable definition (i.e., with specific reference to the New Testament usage) of the word from, say the last 5 years.

;0)

--Erik

How about this as a definition:

We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel. (Article of Faith 3)

[halconero]

A good place to start before getting into the conceptualization of grace, justification, and atonement in scripture it would be useful to get into a discussion on pistis, the Greek word translated as faith, belief, trust and assurance in the New Testament and other scriptures.

Hebrews 11:1

"Now faith (pi'stis) is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen."

Five Solas and others in here have given a working definition of justification, while this scripture helps define what faith is within the covenantal paradigm. 

Υποστασις (hy-po'sta-sis), translated "assurance", is actually a fascinating word because of it connection with the Greco-Roman business world. It actually appears on quite a few ancient papyri business documents. It conveys the idea that a covenant is an exchange of assurances which guarantees the future transfer of possessions or inheritances described in the contract. Pistis is a title deed, a contractual assurance, a primissory note.

The Greek word e´leg-khos, rendered "conviction" in Hebrews 11:1, signifies bringing forth evidence of a particular type. Specifically evidence contrary to presumed cases. The evidence provides clarifying and positive information refuting previous assumptions. The conviction provided by this evidence is so powerful, convincing, and forceful that it used as a descriptor of Pistis. 

Faith, described in these terms, is not synonymous with credulity. Credulity is a common descriptor for faith following the Enlightenment. It means "a state of willingness to believe in one or many people or things in the absence of reasonable proof or knowledge." This has led to assumptions among some Christians that intellectual or spiritual assent is what is necessary for justification.

To deviate temporarily, the concept of Faith and Belief within the English language previous to Decartes and the Enlightenment. Prior to the introduction of Cartesian emphasis on rationality and empiricism the existence of God and Christ was assumed. Atheism and agnosticism as modernly understood had not being conceived as of yet. To say that one had faith or belief in God had nothing to do credulity regarding deity or Jesus' role as the saviour of humanity. To have faith was to act piously with regards to this assumed existence and the roles stemming from them.

In either Greek or the English of the King James Version, Faith had connotations of acting in faithfulness and trust. It was the covenantal assurance pious living.

[halconero]

Side note: I don't know why the formatting is wonky.

Also, my ability to source and reference these is limited. I just found out that my laptop hardrive is fried, so I'm working off mobile.

[Canadaigua]

On December 10, 2015 at 9:26 PM, halconero said:

". . .Such notions were translated properly into the King James Version of the Bible, which predated the rise of Cartesian though and Enlightenment rationality. The connotations regarding faith and belief were accurately reflected in the scripture. Human interpretation thereof became muddled by the rise of empirical agnosticism combined with a premium on human thought. Faith and belief this became more associated with concepts of intellectual assent and agreement, and when combined with Protestant beliefs regarding the salvatory nature of Faith resulted in the common notion the a declaration of belief in Jesus as the Son of God was sufficient for salvation. This notion is incorrect and contrary to scripture. . ."

Would it be fair to say that the LDS position is that you have to work for your salvation?

[halconero]

Just now, Canadaigua said:

Would it be fair to say that the LDS position is that you have to work for your salvation?

It's difficult to say without getting into a faith vs works dichotomy which simply didn't exist prior to the mixture of Enlightenment philosophy with the Protestant focus on sola fide.

So, it largely depends on what you mean by works. Are we talking about ordinances, pious living, obedience to the commandments?

One thing that should be noted is that I haven't addressed the Latter-say Saint position on faith or works. My prior post had more to do with the New Testament definition of faith as outlined by its linguistic and cultural context. I'm not a Mormon theologian, but a Biblical academic from a non-Mormon setting. I'll be posting more regarding how Paul defined works, viewed faith, and their place in salvation. Paul was not so concerned with addressing the necessity of pious living, but to whom and at what point the covenantal relationship could take effect.

In fact...I think a better way to phrase your question, and on which might further things along a bit more is "do works have their place in justification, or sanctification within Latter-day Saint doctrine?"

[bluebell]

9 minutes ago, Canadaigua said:

Would it be fair to say that the LDS position is that you have to work for your salvation?

It would be completely inaccurate.  We believe we are saved by the grace of Jesus Christ.

All Christians believe that we must do something to gain access to that grace. LDS are no different. 

[filovirus]

16 minutes ago, Canadaigua said:

Would it be fair to say that the LDS position is that you have to work for your salvation?

My view: We do works, but we're saved by the Atonement.

For instance, many might consider being obedient to commandments as "works". If this is the case, then yes, we do strive to keep the commandments we are given. This would probably affect every Christian denomination, as all try to keep the two great commandments and hence would be doing " works". While trying to keep the commandments, we fall short. So we repent. Is true repentance considered "works"? And what about ordinances, such as baptism? We consider it a saving ordinance. But until it is sealed upon us (sanctified) by the Holy Ghost, it is just us getting wet.

And remember, if it weren't for the atonement (grace), none of the above that I mentioned would even matter. The atonement gives them life.

[halconero]

In fact, this might be a succinct way of putting it:

For many Protestants, God graciously empowers the individual to the faith which leads to salvation and also to good works.  For Latter-day Saints, God graciously empowers individuals to the faith and good works, which lead to salvation.

An example would be baptism. It is Christ who empowers the individual to humbly submit, and the grace of God which enables, encourages, and completes repentance. Such may result in the penitent entering into the waters of baptism, which baptism does not wash away sins because of the water, but in answering a conscience unto God, as Peter says. Baptism without grace is a bath.

[Canadaigua]

4 hours ago, bluebell said:

It would be completely inaccurate.  We believe we are saved by the grace of Jesus Christ.

All Christians believe that we must do something to gain access to that grace. LDS are no different. 

Would this be a more accurate statement

LDS must work in order to obtain grace (i.e. earn grace)?   

[Canadaigua]

3 hours ago, filovirus said:

My view: We do works, but we're saved by the Atonement.

For instance, many might consider being obedient to commandments as "works". If this is the case, then yes, we do strive to keep the commandments we are given. This would probably affect every Christian denomination, as all try to keep the two great commandments and hence would be doing " works". While trying to keep the commandments, we fall short. So we repent. Is true repentance considered "works"? And what about ordinances, such as baptism? We consider it a saving ordinance. But until it is sealed upon us (sanctified) by the Holy Ghost, it is just us getting wet.

And remember, if it weren't for the atonement (grace), none of the above that I mentioned would even matter. The atonement gives them life.

Moroni 10:32 Yea, come unto Christ, and be perfected in him, and deny yourselves of all ungodliness; and IF ye shall deny yourselves of all ungodliness, and love God with all your might, mind and strength, THEN is his grace sufficient for you, that by his grace ye may be perfect in Christ; and if by the grace of God ye are perfect in Christ, ye can in nowise deny the power of God. 

 

In the verse do you see the "IF" and "THEN" statements?

According to this verse what is required of you BEFORE his grace is sufficient for you?

[bluebell]

13 minutes ago, Canadaigua said:

Would this be a more accurate statement

LDS must work in order to obtain grace (i.e. earn grace)?   

No.  

Not unless you consider it accurate to say that Protestants and Catholics must work in order to obtain grace (since they also believe that grace is given only after certain conditions have been met).

It would be accurate to say that LDS believe we must enter a covenant with Christ to obtain grace.

[halconero]

Well it would be inaccurate to say that God's grace is effective in the life of the rebellious sinner.

Notice that Moroni separates perfection and sinlessness from denial of ungodliness. In effect, Moroni is saying that God's grace is sufficient for the penitent. Something in line with the Greco-Roman, Pauline, and Apostolic Gospel's conception of grace.

[Anakin7]

      I would say a broken Heart and a contrite spirit and to count the cost to follow Jesus  Luke 14:25-35. One cannot accept access activate Christ Grace unless that are willing to make Him The Lord of There Life/Lord/Saviour/Redeemer/God/King/Master and become His Disciple in there Heart and Mind.

In His Eternal Debt/Grace

            Anakin7

Edited December 12, 2015 by Anakin7

[Anakin7]

What It Really Means To Believe In Jesus Christ - The Ultimate Core - http://www.biblestudyonjesuschrist.com/index-pc.html 

In His Eternal Debt/grace

           Anakin7

[Canadaigua]

38 minutes ago, bluebell said:

No.  

Not unless you consider it accurate to say that Protestants and Catholics must work in order to obtain grace (since they also believe that grace is given only after certain conditions have been met).

It would be accurate to say that LDS believe we must enter a covenant with Christ to obtain grace.

"LDS believe we must enter a covenant with Christ to obtain grace."

So you must do certain things firsts in order to "obtain" grace.  Would it be fair to say that you must do works first in order to obtain (earn) grace?

[Anakin7]

Recieve [Accept/Access/Activate] True Grace [charis] by way of True Faith [pistis = Allegience/Commitment/Confidence/Dedication/Devotion/Faithfulness/Fidelity/Loyalty/Obedince/Trust] to the person and work of Christ Jesus. We must recieve Jesus Christ and enter a spiritual marriage covenant with Him in order to obtain and recieve His Awesome Gift of Grace.

In His Eternal Debt/Grace

              Anakin7

Edited December 12, 2015 by Anakin7

[Zakuska]

13 minutes ago, Canadaigua said:

"LDS believe we must enter a covenant with Christ to obtain grace."

So you must do certain things firsts in order to "obtain" grace.  Would it be fair to say that you must do works first in order to obtain (earn) grace?

Paul was working pretty hard to "obtain" (earn) grace too.

Phil 3

 7 But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ.

 8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,

 9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

 10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;

 11 If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.

 12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.

 13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: butthis one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,

 14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.

 15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.

 16 Nevertheless, whereto we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us mind the same thing.

 17 Brethren, be followers together of me, and mark them which walk so as ye have us for an ensample.

[bluebell]

15 minutes ago, Canadaigua said:

"LDS believe we must enter a covenant with Christ to obtain grace."

So you must do certain things firsts in order to "obtain" grace.  Would it be fair to say that you must do works first in order to obtain (earn) grace?

How do you believe a person gains salvation?

[Canadaigua]

2 hours ago, bluebell said:

How do you believe a person gains salvation?

Salvation is based on placing your faith in Christ.

Romans 3

28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

29 Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:

30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.

[Calm]

8 hours ago, halconero said:

Side note: I don't know why the formatting is wonky.

Also, my ability to source and reference these is limited. I just found out that my laptop hardrive is fried, so I'm working off mobile.

When you paste something into the reply box, at the bottom it will give you the option to remove formatting.  I find that helpful though I have to add spacing sometimes.

 

[Calm]

Quote

placing your faith in Christ

Do you see this as a work?  If not, why not since it requires a decision and movement towards God?

[bluebell]

45 minutes ago, Canadaigua said:

Salvation is based on placing your faith in Christ.

Romans 3

28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

29 Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:

30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.

So you must do that thing first in order to obtain grace?  Would it be fair to say that you must do a work first, in order to obtain (earn) grace?

[Canadaigua]

2 hours ago, Zakuska said:

Paul was working pretty hard to "obtain" (earn) grace too.

Some LDS have a misperception about Christian (non LDS) beliefs.  Perhaps this will help.  Christians beliefs that salvation is based on faith in Christ.  LDS will then incorrectly assume that this means Christians don't believe they should strive to keep the commandments.  Which of course is incorrect.

 

Paul did not teach that we work for grace.  But I am sure that you will not take my word for it so I will let Paul speak for himself in the verses below.

 

Romans 3:22  the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction:

Romans 3:24  and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,

Romans 3:26  It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

Romans 3:28 For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law. 29 Or is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, 30 since God is one—who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith.

Romans 4:2  For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.”

Romans 4:5  And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness,

Romans 4:11  He received the sign of circumcision as a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised. The purpose was to make him the father of all who believe without being circumcised, so that righteousness would be counted to them as well,

Romans 4:16  That is why it depends on faith, in order that the promise may rest on grace and be guaranteed to all his offspring—not only to the adherent of the law but also to the one who shares the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all,

Romans 5:1  Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.

Romans 5:9  Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God.

Romans 9:30  What shall we say, then? That Gentiles who did not pursue righteousness have attained it, that is, a righteousness that is by faith;

Romans 9:33  as it is written, “Behold, I am laying in Zion a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offense; and whoever believes in him will not be put to shame.”

Romans 10:4  For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

Romans 10:9  because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved.

Romans 11:6  But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace.

Galatians 2:16  yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.

Galatians 2:21  I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness were through the law, then Christ died for no purpose.

Galatians 3:5  Does he who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you do so by works of the law, or by hearing with faith— 6 just as Abraham “believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness”?

Galatians 3:8  And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, “In you shall all the nations be blessed.”

Galatians 3:14 so that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we might receive the promised Spirit through faith.

Galatians 3:22  But the Scripture imprisoned everything under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.

Galatians 3:24  So then, the law was our guardian until Christ came, in order that we might be justified by faith.

Ephesians 1:13  In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit,

Ephesians 2:8  For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,

Philippians 3:9  and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which comes through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God that depends on faith—

1 Timothy 1:16  But I received mercy for this reason, that in me, as the foremost, Jesus Christ might display his perfect patience as an example to those who were to believe in him for eternal life.

 

[halconero]

The problem is that you're confusing pious living with Mosaic law.

It helps if your notion of faith isn't informed by Englightenment credulity, but Greco-Roman Piety.

The problem with parsing verses as you've done is that it takes them out of the context in which Paul is writing.

Put simply, Paul is arguing that piety within the bounds of covenant grace saves over Mosaic law.

[volgadon]

11 hours ago, Canadaigua said:

Would it be fair to say that the LDS position is that you have to work for your salvation?

we believe that we must work to remain in the covenant which has been extended to us by the grace of God, and that it is ultimately through his grace only that we may succeed in that.