coolrok7 Posted January 10, 2016 Posted January 10, 2016 (edited) "True Biblical Christians" (the writers of Biblical Scripture) didn't teach the things of Joseph Smith, in the things I've pointed out here from General Authorities official literature as well as sitting through hours and hours of instruction by Mormon priesthood holders/church members over the years. By the way, if you can arrange to teach the class again, in a previous thread where you had stated that you taught a class on grace at you own Ward (using the kind of language a Protestant would use and not receiving any reprimand from you own leaders, if I understood you correctly). I would be more than happy to come, keep quiet and listen respectfully to what you would have to say. Perhaps we could even go out for some lunch later at an appropriate time that would work for you. Let me know. Edited January 10, 2016 by coolrok7 spelling, word usage
Zakuska Posted January 10, 2016 Posted January 10, 2016 (edited) Was Martin Luther a "True Biblical Christian©™®"? On the necessity of "ordinances" for Salvation he wrote: "Baptism is no human plaything but is instituted by God himself. Moreover, it is solemnly and strictly commanded that we must be baptized or we shall not be saved. We are not to regard it as an indifferent matter, then, like putting on a new red coat. It is of the greatest importance that we regard baptism as excellent, glorious, and exalted" I thought "True Biblical Christian©™®" didn't teach such things coolrok7? Edited January 10, 2016 by Zakuska
boblloyd91 Posted January 10, 2016 Posted January 10, 2016 1 hour ago, Zakuska said: Was Martin Luther a "True Biblical Christian©™®"? On the necessity of "ordinances" for Salvation he wrote: "Baptism is no human plaything but is instituted by God himself. Moreover, it is solemnly and strictly commanded that we must be baptized or we shall not be saved. We are not to regard it as an indifferent matter, then, like putting on a new red coat. It is of the greatest importance that we regard baptism as excellent, glorious, and exalted" I thought "True Biblical Christian©™®" didn't teach such things coolrok7? Unfortunately Protestant Evangelicals don't agree as much as they claim. Heck the reformers themselves didn't really agree with each other in ways hence 40,000 plus churches. I know that's an oversimplification but look at debates about things like Calvinism vs Arminiansim to see what I'm talking about
Anakin7 Posted January 11, 2016 Posted January 11, 2016 (edited) coolrok I hope and pray that you and those you love are well. Yes we go back a # of years starting at ZLMB and many posts have been posted between the both of us and yes there is a posting history of a # of Christian/Biblical topics. If you had read my post on the talk I gave a # of weeks ago on Salvation it was in my Awesome Ward/congregation Sacrement meeting and not in a regular class setting, so as to repeat that would not come to pass due to pre arrainged future talks are in place in LDS Sacrement meetings [ I thought you knew this ?], sorry to diappoint you. Yes at times I have invited you to recieve True Grace by way of True Faith in the main text of my posts to you, however I exhort others - LDS Christian and my non LDS Christian friends to - " Recieve True Grace by way of True Faith " as an Admonition/Exhortation and at times as an invite. So you are not alone, so please your thoughts are unwarrented. My limited time is focused on Jesus Christ and serving him, my wife,work [ 2 jobs ] so time is precious, working on the wall. Thank you for your time, have a True Grace filled evening and day. 2 Nephi 2:4. In His Eternal Debt/Grace Anakin7 Edited January 11, 2016 by Anakin7
Anakin7 Posted January 11, 2016 Posted January 11, 2016 (edited) Zak and bobloyd91 in alot of Protestantism and those I have spoken with state that "Baptism" is a "Work of The Lord" and not of "man" so as man has no element in the equation of his Salvation, and then there is the predestinational element within reformed thought, Luther and Calvin though I think each held a somewhat different position on predestination. It would have been awesome to have witnessed Martin Luther and John Calvin going face to face one on one mono e mono in a debate setting. I would imagine alote of colorfull metaphors from Luther and threats of physical harm from Calvin, both predestiating one another to the flames of the other side. In His Eternal Debt/Grace Anakin7 Edited January 11, 2016 by Anakin7
boblloyd91 Posted January 11, 2016 Posted January 11, 2016 10 hours ago, Anakin7 said: Zak and bobloyd91 in alot of Protestantism and those I have spoken with state that "Baptism" is a "Work of The Lord" and not of "man" so as man has no element in the equation of his Salvation, and then there is the predestinational element within reformed thought, Luther and Calvin though I think each held a somewhat different position on predestination. It would have been awesome to have witnessed Martin Luther and John Calvin going face to face one on one mono e mono in a debate setting. I would imagine alote of colorfull metaphors from Luther and threats of physical harm from Calvin, both predestiating one another to the flames of the other side. In His Eternal Debt/Grace Anakin7 Lol Luther certainly had his way with words! From what I understand of predestination is the concept actually was developed by Augustine, though he also held some very catholic beliefs too. Before him it was much harder to find someone supporting that. In fact Calvin basically said his interpretation was better then the church fathers and they were wrong. Very arrogant man.
Zakuska Posted January 11, 2016 Posted January 11, 2016 (edited) On 1/9/2016 at 8:17 AM, coolrok7 said: Zak, believers are already judged at the cross. What I stated in no way denies God's Judgment for any of us. That's news to Paul... 2 Tim 4 1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom; According to Paul believers and non-believers will be Judged by Jesus on Judgement day. Edited January 11, 2016 by Zakuska
coolrok7 Posted January 12, 2016 Posted January 12, 2016 (edited) Zak, you should notice that in this statement here in part that I quoted, ". . .True Christian Believers", to which you added the trademark, I was actually playing off of Anakin7's verbiage, "we have responded to you adinfinentum as well and shown we are True Biblical Christians." Used in the previous post of his. Based on my previous posts on page 5 of this thread, it is not demonstrated by Anakin7 (which he really didn't answer the idea of "meriting" eternal life when it is a gift of God, given to those who believe in Jesus) that what is believed and taught by Mormons is actually what True Biblical Christians believe. He seems to be fond of adding "true" all the time to statements that to me are unnecessary (he can say what he wants but just because he includes the term "true" to his comments, it doesn't necessarily make it so). Biblical teaching is in the category of truth and in context doesn't need to be stated as being "true" if it doesn't actually say it is. I think it might come from the constant stating of over the years I've attended Mormon chapels, "this is the only true church" and things like that. Also when what Luther taught that which is inline with what is Biblical teaching, I have no problem with. Peter taught that "baptism now saves you". Being a Biblical command, we as Missouri Synod Lutherans in obedience to Jesus' command, of necessity, baptize people as a requirement for church membership. Luther had also stated (both Justification/Sanctification together): Quote works are not absent where faith is Anakin7, I've attended many a Mormon Chapel over the years in that that they have arranged investigator classes for me along with several other church members/missionaries. Surely, if you gave such an "awesome" talk during the Sacrament meeting, you can arrange to teach your talk in a class setting (in which you can maybe inspire me?) during the Sunday School hour which is the same amount of time allotted to the Sacrament meeting. You wouldn't want to deprive me of such awesome instruction now, would you? Edited January 12, 2016 by coolrok7 added a thought
filovirus Posted January 12, 2016 Posted January 12, 2016 19 minutes ago, coolrok7 said: Based on my previous posts on page 5 of this thread, it is not demonstrated by Anakin7 (which he really didn't answer the idea of "meriting" eternal life when it is a gift of God, given to those who believe in Jesus) that what is believed and taught by Mormons is actually what True Biblical Christians believe. Richards G. Scott (April 1997 GC) I witness that “redemption cometh in and through the Holy Messiah; … unto all those who have a broken heart and a contrite spirit; and unto none else can the ends of the law be answered.” 10 This absolute requisite of “a broken heart and a contrite spirit” prescribes the need to be submissive, compliant, humble (that is, teachable), and willingly obedient. Finally, I witness “how great the importance to make these things known unto the inhabitants of the earth, that they may know that there is no flesh that can dwell in the presence of God, save it be through the merits, and mercy, and grace of the Holy Messiah.” 11 Jesus Christ possessed merits that no other child of Heavenly Father could possibly have. He was a God, Jehovah, before His birth in Bethlehem. His Father not only gave Him His spirit body, but Jesus was His Only Begotten Son in the flesh. Our Master lived a perfect, sinless life and therefore was free from the demands of justice. He was and is perfect in every attribute, including love, compassion, patience, obedience, forgiveness, and humility. His mercy pays our debt to justice when we repent and obey Him. Even with our best efforts to obey His teachings we will still fall short, yet because of His grace we will be saved “after all we can do.” As we make a covenant with Christ through baptism, we form a new relationship with Him. He promises he will guide us to eternal life through his merits, if we promise a broken heart and a contrite spirit. This starts a special bond with Christ. In essence, we are learning how to become "one" with Him. He does all the hard work and asks in return that we have faith, forsake our sins through repentance, and be obedient. But because we are becoming "one" with Him, his merits are shared with us. 2
halconero Posted January 13, 2016 Author Posted January 13, 2016 My apologies for reneging on my promise to promptly get back to this. It's been a crazy few days, and without ready access to a computer I haven't been able to devote my time to any sort of substantial response (I can't do anything significant from mobile or tablet). I think it might be useful to go over Romans, an oft-mentioned text in this thread, in its relative completeness (I'll be skipping a few portions that mostly deal with Paul sorting out domestic issues or salutations, unless they're doctrinally relevant), or at least the first few chapters. This is because it provides one of the best elaborations on Paul's part regarding the interaction between grace, works, faith, and justification. Whereas Galatians had been composed to an almost entirely non-Jewish audience of Saints, Paul was dealing with a mixed congregation of Jewish and Gentile converts to Jesus. A careful analysis of the two works (which we might cover here), presents Paul as having a much more nuanced, conciliatory tone rather than his polemic in Galatians. I argue that Paul's greater goal in his letter to the Romans was maintaining and strengthening the unity of the Roman congregation, and advocating the development of a Jewish-Gentile covenant people, and that grace, works and faith actually take a backseat to this endeavor. Buuuttt...I'll strive to show that through the works, rather than just me babbling on. Btw, I'll be using the NRSV, as it renders the most accurate translation of the Bible, and is probably the most neutral of all the versions out there. Romans 1 1 Paul, a servant[a] of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, set apart for the gospel of God, 2 which he promised beforehand through his prophets in the holy scriptures, 3 the gospel concerning his Son, who was descended from David according to the flesh 4 and was declared to be Son of God with power according to the spirit of holiness by resurrection from the dead, Jesus Christ our Lord, 5 through whom we have received grace and apostleship to bring about the obedience of faith among all the Gentiles for the sake of his name, 6 including yourselves who are called to belong to Jesus Christ, Paul's salutation in the beginning of this letter takes a rather different tone than his others. I no others does he begin by tying his apostleship to the legacy of the Jewish prophets of the Hebrew Bible (what he refers to as the "holy scriptures" in verse 2). Also significant is the fact that this is the ONLY letter of his (Hebrews doesn't count. His authorship of the work wasn't really formalized until it was added to the KJV by the translators) with any mention of King David, whose ancestry of Jesus he proclaims here. This is important as it sets the tone right away for the work, and helps us understand the nature of his audience, for whom both the prophets and King David were important and familiar. It is also here that Paul ties obedience with faith, consistent in the Greco-Roman understanding of faith, otherwise known as "Pistis." 7 To all God’s beloved in Rome, who are called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. 8-15: Paul gives a prayer of thanksgiving. Says he's excited to come to them at some point to do some missionary work among the Gentile population. 16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel; it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who has faith, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 17 For in it the righteousness of God is revealed through faith for faith; as it is written, “The one who is righteous will live by faith.” Paul frames his desire to conduct missionary work within Rome by stating his lack of shame regarding the Gospel due to his salvatory nature among both Jew and Gentile. This is what connects the two groups: faith. Faith is the unifying glue which unites Jew and Gentile. So Paul says that salvation comes through the possession of faith, all good? In verse 17 he begins his explanation of HOW salvation and faith are connected. To paraphrase Paul, there is a revelation of righteousness that comes via "faith for faith." How is righteousness revealed, and what does Paul mean when he says "faith for faith"? To the Greek or Jew living in Rome this wouldn't have been that difficult to comprehend. During this era in Imperial Rome, roughly around the end of Claudius' reign and the beginning of Nero's, the patronage system was in full bloom. A Patron was a rich or politically powerful individual who graciously bestowed gifts on what were understood to be undeserving clients. The clients didn't merit this gift, and because of their undeserving nature could only pledge their faith, loyalty, and praise to the patron. Every morning, first thing, the clients of Rome would rise up and go see their patrons, who would be waiting to receive them at their homes. The client would arrive bearing thanks, songs of praise, and declarations of loyalty, and the Patron would give the client some sort of monetary, legal, or political aid. In the early era of the Principate (the term used to describe the political system of the early Roman Empire, wherein the Emperor wasn't an out-and-out monarch, but the "First Citizen" (princeps) of the Republic invested with tribunal and military power) this system of patronage also translated into votes for things like the consulship, legislation, or other political positions, yet was steadily transforming into something of a measure of social mobility or power. Some individuals actually made their living off of being clients, sometimes to multiple people (this makes the "no man can serve two masters" line that much more significant, as the underlying motivation for multiple patrons was monetary rather than true loyalty). Faithfulness then became a two way street, in which the Patron-client relationship was based on a dual system of loyalty, obligations, trust, and aid. The Patron's faith was displayed through protections from legal, political, financial or military harm, and the client's faith was displayed through submission to the Patron's will, guiding hand, and family. That is not to say that the client was buying the Patron's loyalty. Such an understanding was looked on with contempt by the Greeks and the Romans. The client lost all in losing the Patronage of the powerful. The Patron lost nothing. The dual-faithfulness was not of equal nature. So there is a patronage exchange of "faith (from the client) for faith (from the patron)." In the act of the client rendering faithfulness as a result of the patron's faith, the righteousness of God is revealed. In participating in the divine patronage system, the client of God "lives by faith." "Live" here has connotations of survival rather than continuous action. In other words, the righteous will be saved, or will survive, by faith. To go back to the example of Rome, which Paul is employing here in his letter to the Romans, at the time of the Principate the grain dole has been firmly established among the poor of the city. Every day a measure of African, Sicilian, or Egyptian grain would be doled out to the poorest of Rome, yet even so it was often not enough and starvation was rampant among the urban poor. So the system of patronage often became a necessity for survival, as one of the only sure ways of putting food on the table. Patronage wasn't just to line your pockets, it was a method of survival. To summarize Paul's words in another way, given their historical context, the line could be read as "Your relationship with God, wherein you meet his faithfulness with your own, reveals righteous living. Those who are righteous will survive (be saved), by this relationship." 18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and wickedness of those who by their wickedness suppress the truth. 19 For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. 20 Ever since the creation of the world his eternal power and divine nature, invisible though they are, have been understood and seen through the things he has made. So they are without excuse; 21 for though they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their senseless minds were darkened. 22 Claiming to be wise, they became fools; 23 and they exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling a mortal human being or birds or four-footed animals or reptiles. 24 Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the degrading of their bodies among themselves, 25 because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever! Amen. 26 For this reason God gave them up to degrading passions. Their women exchanged natural intercourse for unnatural, 27 and in the same way also the men, giving up natural intercourse with women, were consumed with passion for one another. Men committed shameless acts with men and received in their own persons the due penalty for their error. 28 And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a debased mind and to things that should not be done. 29 They were filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, covetousness, malice. Full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, craftiness, they are gossips, 30 slanderers, God-haters,[f] insolent, haughty, boastful, inventors of evil, rebellious toward parents, 31 foolish, faithless, heartless, ruthless. 32 They know God’s decree, that those who practice such things deserve to die—yet they not only do them but even applaud others who practice them. This collection of verses serves to reinforce Paul's prior point: Wickedness stems from the abrogation of the Patron-client relationship. Notice that the "righteousness of God" is revealed through mutual faithfulness, while the "wrath of God" is revealed through "not honor[ing]," or "giv[ing] thanks" to him, and "not see[ing] fit to acknowledge" him. These are the acts of a client, and the abrogation of this relationship is what results in sinfulness. Surviving (salvation) is therefore tied to the Patron-client relationship between God and the disciple, with death (damnation) being the abrogation of it. So, patronage underlies Paul's message in Romans. What patronage means for salvation, who can enter the patronage system, and how, will be the theme for the rest of the epistle, and our discussion of it. 3
Anakin7 Posted January 13, 2016 Posted January 13, 2016 coolrok7 thank you again for your pridefull post it really does not inspire me once again, thank you. However there are a # of Sundays I have to work my temporal job in my local area so planning a talk on a certain Sunday is difficult due to to my knowlege of my work schedual not being known until the week before or them calling me in on a Sunday morning to work and the Gospel Priniples class lessons pre arrainged. Sorry to disappoint you but your arrogant use of "Awesome" to my reference to "Awesome" to the talk I gave a # of weeks ago is so unchristlike/charitable it is not worth the time/effort to communicate to your eternal soul things that you mock. And I now currently attend the Gospel Doctrine class. I am trying by way of True Grace [sorry that term finds you bewidiered] to allow it to change my adamic nature so as to be more Christlike/Charitable in my dealings with my fellow man, The Father/Jesus Christ/Holy Ghost Spirit have been patient with me. Within the Archives of Heaven is written the Talk I gave a # of weeks ago to my local congregation on Jesus Christ and his Awesome Blood Sacrifice on our behalf, and after the talk not expecting any praise/glory/recognition I was approached by a # of Church leaders amd lay members who thanked me for my " Awesome" talk and wanted to become better followers of Jesus Christ. In conclusion I wonder if there is any relationship with you and Martin Luther ?, I ask because out of Love and curiosity because you both have a mocking/ridicule style of writting to those who you religiously write to whom you disgree. May you recieve True Grace [The Grace of Christ, not the grace of the protestant critics] by way of True Faith. Washing My Robes In The Blood Of The Lamb, The Atonement It Is The Central Doctrine, Salvation Is Free But It Costs You Your Very Life. In His Eternal Debt/Grace Anakin7
Anakin7 Posted January 13, 2016 Posted January 13, 2016 filovirus and halconero great observations. In response to coolrok7 We believe in a patron/client Salvation soteriological form/model not a employer/employee form/model as is portrayed by our critcs such as coolrok7. In His Eternal Debt/Grace Anakin7
halconero Posted January 15, 2016 Author Posted January 15, 2016 In starting Romans 2 I think it's important to throw in the last few lines from the previous chapter, as these were letters meant to be read continuously, even though we've separated them out for convenience in studying: God talking about those who have rejected God's patronage: 26 For this reason God gave them up to degrading passions. Their women exchanged natural intercourse for unnatural, 27 and in the same way also the men, giving up natural intercourse with women, were consumed with passion for one another. Men committed shameless acts with men and received in their own persons the due penalty for their error. 28 And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a debased mind and to things that should not be done. 29 They were filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, covetousness, malice. Full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, craftiness, they are gossips, 30 slanderers, God-haters,[f] insolent, haughty, boastful, inventors of evil, rebellious toward parents, 31 foolish, faithless, heartless, ruthless. 32 They know God’s decree, that those who practice such things deserve to die—yet they not only do them but even applaud others who practice them. 2 Therefore you have no excuse, whoever you are, when you judge others; for in passing judgment on another you condemn yourself, because you, the judge, are doing the very same things. 2 You say, “We know that God’s judgment on those who do such things is in accordance with truth.” 3 Do you imagine, whoever you are, that when you judge those who do such things and yet do them yourself, you will escape the judgment of God? 4 Or do you despise the riches of his kindness and forbearance and patience? Do you not realize that God’s kindness is meant to lead you to repentance? 5 But by your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath, when God’s righteous judgment will be revealed. 6 For he will repay according to each one’s deeds: 7 to those who by patiently doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; 8 while for those who are self-seeking and who obey not the truth but wickedness, there will be wrath and fury. 9 There will be anguish and distress for everyone who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek, 10 but glory and honor and peace for everyone who does good, the Jew first and also the Greek. 11 For God shows no partiality. So here are these people, going around and doing all kinds of vicious things, and Paul says not to judge them because you're potentially under the same condemnation if you do them. Remember, Paul is not talking to those who have never been part of the Patron-client relationship, but to those currently within it, yet who are abrogating their obligations as clients. To clarify his statement in verse 4 of chapter 2, these are some of the things which encapsulate divine grace, "Charis" in Greek, and which signifies favour. God is favouring his clients through his kindness, forebearance, and patience, thereby showing them grace. Grace which is undeserved, and which God does not need to show. Yet this grace is not only a saving power, but but one which is designed to instill repentance in the receiver of it. Remember the phrase "faith for faith," in the first section? God shows faith through his grace towards the client, and the client returns such grace through his/her own faith. "Doing good," and "seek[ing] glory, honor, and immorality," is the return of this faith, and results in eternal life. Jews first, because they have been clients of God through the covenant relationship, but Gentiles as well. 12 All who have sinned apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law. 13 For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but the doers of the law who will be justified. 14 When Gentiles, who do not possess the law, do instinctively what the law requires, these, though not having the law, are a law to themselves. 15 They show that what the law requires is written on their hearts, to which their own conscience also bears witness; and their conflicting thoughts will accuse or perhaps excuse them 16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God, through Jesus Christ, will judge the secret thoughts of all. Notice here that Paul indicates that you can still perish (be damned) without law, and that sin is still possible without it. This indicates that the action of both sin and righteousness, things either damning or saving, are something not wholly interconnected with the law. The law therefore CANNOT be the moral commandments of God, as Paul indicates that morality and judgement thereby still exists without it. Given that in 14 he indicates that it is Gentiles which do not possess the law, and since Paul has lumped these in textually with Jews throughout the first part of his writings, the law must be something possessed by Jews. The law talked about here is established as the Law of Moses, including the rites, ceremonies, dietary restrictions, etc. This fact is important to establish right now because it is the reference point from which Paul will talk about justification, reconciliation, grace, and faith for the rest of his epistle. Paul is inconsistent in some areas, but with this is remarkably consistent, the law isn't morality, something vital to salvation and divine Patronage. The law is the Mosaic covenant. These verses are fascinating regarding Paul's view on the law. Paul's primary argument and goal throughout all his writings seems to be the establishment of a covenant people in preparation for the return of Jesus. His difficulty is that there are two different systems of patronage whereby an individual might enter into the Patronage of God. In fact, Paul stills sees the Law of Moses as a means whereby someone might enter God's clientele. In none of his writings does he disparage the covenant-forming ability of the Law, but that its difficulty, requirements, and rites make discipleship overtly difficult and are entirely unnecessary if its the Patronage of God you're after. In other words, the Law works, but you're making more obligations and requirements for yourself than what you really need and that it will be a hindrance to you in salvation. This is supported in Galatians, wherein Paul states that those Gentiles who choose to live the Law are taking on obligations to obey the entirety of it, obligations which Christ will not help them with. Again...he still sees the Law as having covenantal significance...but not a yoke anybody should really want. Here in Romans he says "hey...undergoing the ceremonies are unnecessary as those righteous gentiles who do those things anyways will be justified, and if there are any conflicts with the law...well...God and Jesus will sort it out." ----- Part 2 of Romans 2 will come tomorrow. I'm running out of time today, and still have some things which I need to accomplish. Cheers. 3
coolrok7 Posted January 23, 2016 Posted January 23, 2016 Halconero’s opening point of the thread: I don't want to derail Five Solas' thread, so I'll continue the conversation here. My position: A proper understanding of Faith, Grace, Works, and the Atonement are properly rooted in understanding the Culture and Language in which they were first described by the New Testament. Specifically, these concepts are rooted in an understanding of Greco-Roman patronage systems, gift economies, divine favour, and their interplay with Jewish Torah laws and rites. Paul did not seek to derail the place of righteous and pious living in the New Testament, and in fact advocated a kinship/patronage system with God out of loving obedience, submission, and action enabled by divine favour, otherwise known as grace. Such notions were translated properly into the King James Version of the Bible, which predated the rise of Cartesian though and Enlightenment rationality. The connotations regarding faith and belief were accurately reflected in the scripture. Human interpretation thereof became muddled by the rise of empirical agnosticism combined with a premium on human thought. Faith and belief this became more associated with concepts of intellectual assent and agreement, and when combined with Protestant beliefs regarding the salvatory nature of Faith resulted in the common notion the a declaration of belief in Jesus as the Son of God was sufficient for salvation. This notion is incorrect and contrary to scripture. My first response was to Anakin7 in the context of agreeing with what he had stated, in which I summed up as “Sanctification” the key term is “staying” which is the context of Sanctification not Justification (in a more narrow context): A better understanding is that we believe in obtaining and staying in True Grace [charis] for our Salvation by way of True Faith [pistis allegience/commitment/confidence/devotion/dedication/faithfulnes/fidelity/loyalty/obediece/trust to the Person and work of Christ Jesus. We accept/access/activate/grab hold of/hold on to True Grace by True Faith http://www.biblestudyonjesuschrist.com/index-pc.html .We labor for the Lord. . . . After my initial responses to Anakin7, I answered halconero’s post with: . . . I believe, as I will explain not a notion but the Biblical teaching (19 Dec,2015) I had also asked this question to Anakin7 (as it relates to the Mormon Church’s teaching (in how it relates to the thread position): On 12/19/2015 at 7:24 AM, coolrok7 said: Anakin7, do you agree with your church's teaching concerning eternal progression and is it the result of grace or works (merit, earning it)? In order to arrive at the biblical teaching in the context of what “salvation” is and how it is obtained, there are two Biblical terms directly related to understanding the who, what, where, when, and why of properly understanding this Biblical teaching. These are Justification/Sanctification which ultimately explains how one is saved/maintains ones proper position before God in this life, once one becomes a believer in Jesus Christ. Jesus had stated: And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. (Matthew 10:28) Salvation is ultimately escaping the sentence of an eternal punishment in hell as a “goat” (which is a conscious state of existence, in a non-glorified, physically resurrected body for for one’s rejection of God’s grace in Jesus Christ offered to all but in which not all will receive) and receiving eternal life as a “sheep” in the presence of God for eternity. A summarization of this is on pages 5&6 of this thread.
Anakin7 Posted January 23, 2016 Posted January 23, 2016 Thank you coolrok, we believe in the reception of True Grace [charis] by way of True Faith [pistis] as found in Holy writ. Must go to work, have a blesed day. In His Eternal Debt/Grace Anakin7
coolrok7 Posted January 23, 2016 Posted January 23, 2016 So Anakin7, in your usual misrepresentation of my position, I offered to attend, if it could be arranged (within reason of course) a re-teaching of the subject matter (at your convenience) is what I had initially requested of you. I had pointed out previously to you that your use of Protestant terminology in the Mariner meetings (not far from the Newport Beach temple open house time period (in which I had previously heard you in conversation with others, before I knew who you were, to argue for the Mormon position is not accurately representing the Mormon context of understanding): From ZLMB: coolrok7 and Tanyan meet. Last night at Mariners Church in Irvine Ca. there was an Evangelical/LDS Discussion group that met at Mariners Church. There were 6 in attendance [2 moderators, Charlotte Pardee of EXMFJ and her Husband, coolrok7, and 1 LDS/Mormon - ME !-OUCH]. Is was a positive experience for everone involved. Looking forward to the next one next week [As far as I know I will be able to attend] Just a shout out to coolrok7 thanks again for carrying that bag for me !. For some stange reason everyone there thought that I was a somewhat different LDS than they had ever met in the past. Anyway may Grace Rain on all this day. In His Debt/Grace, Tanyan, LDS JEDI KNiGHT.” It was in the follow-up meetings where Mormons were invited to participate if they wanted to, in which you showed up (a small group setting). It was determined by those listening to you (myself included), based on what you were saying, that you don’t accurately reflect the Mormon view of God, although you do consider yourself to be “Mormon” in belief (unless I’ve misunderstood you). I had forgot the context of your "awesome" teaching (I was only quoting what you had stated) being in the setting of a sacrament meeting. After your following posts (it was sort of tongue in cheek, playing off you terminology when I had made the comment about depriving me of your awesome teaching so I apologize if this was offensive to you which seemed to me to show up in your responses.) I had stated before your responses below: On 1/10/2016 at 8:42 AM, coolrok7 said: . . .By the way, if you can arrange to teach the class again, in a previous thread where you had stated that you taught a class on grace at you own Ward (using the kind of language a Protestant would use and not receiving any reprimand from you own leaders, if I understood you correctly). I would be more than happy to come, keep quiet and listen respectfully to what you would have to say. Perhaps we could even go out for some lunch later at an appropriate time that would work for you. Let me know. Your responses (I believe are unwarranted as I had stated above, "if I had understood you correctly") in which I wasn't mocking or bewildered (maybe just a little frustrated would be a better choice of words in my view): On 1/13/2016 at 7:08 AM, Anakin7 said: coolrok7 thank you again for your pridefull post it really does not inspire me once again, thank you. However there are a # of Sundays I have to work my temporal job in my local area so planning a talk on a certain Sunday is difficult due to to my knowlege of my work schedual not being known until the week before or them calling me in on a Sunday morning to work and the Gospel Priniples class lessons pre arrainged. Sorry to disappoint you but your arrogant use of "Awesome" to my reference to "Awesome" to the talk I gave a # of weeks ago is so unchristlike/charitable it is not worth the time/effort to communicate to your eternal soul things that you mock. And I now currently attend the Gospel Doctrine class. I am trying by way of True Grace [sorry that term finds you bewidiered] to allow it to change my adamic nature so as to be more Christlike/Charitable in my dealings with my fellow man, The Father/Jesus Christ/Holy Ghost Spirit have been patient with me. Within the Archives of Heaven is written the Talk I gave a # of weeks ago to my local congregation on Jesus Christ and his Awesome Blood Sacrifice on our behalf, and after the talk not expecting any praise/glory/recognition I was approached by a # of Church leaders amd lay members who thanked me for my " Awesome" talk and wanted to become better followers of Jesus Christ. In conclusion I wonder if there is any relationship with you and Martin Luther ?, I ask because out of Love and curiosity because you both have a mocking/ridicule style of writting to those who you religiously write to whom you disgree. May you recieve True Grace [The Grace of Christ, not the grace of the protestant critics] by way of True Faith. Washing My Robes In The Blood Of The Lamb, The Atonement It Is The Central Doctrine, Salvation Is Free But It Costs You Your Very Life. In His Eternal Debt/Grace Anakin7 Eternal life is the free gift which is not earned, merited, or even worked for as is taught in the Mormon teaching on Exaltation/Eternal Progression On 1/11/2016 at 8:08 PM, Anakin7 said: coolrok I hope and pray that you and those you love are well. Yes we go back a # of years starting at ZLMB and many posts have been posted between the both of us and yes there is a posting history of a # of Christian/Biblical topics. If you had read my post on the talk I gave a # of weeks ago on Salvation it was in my Awesome Ward/congregation Sacrement meeting and not in a regular class setting, so as to repeat that would not come to pass due to pre arrainged future talks are in place in LDS Sacrement meetings [ I thought you knew this ?], sorry to diappoint you. Yes at times I have invited you to recieve True Grace by way of True Faith in the main text of my posts to you, however I exhort others - LDS Christian and my non LDS Christian friends to - " Recieve True Grace by way of True Faith " as an Admonition/Exhortation and at times as an invite. So you are not alone, so please your thoughts are unwarrented. My limited time is focused on Jesus Christ and serving him, my wife,work [ 2 jobs ] so time is precious, working on the wall. Thank you for your time, have a True Grace filled evening and day. 2 Nephi 2:4. In His Eternal Debt/Grace Anakin7 .
Anakin7 Posted January 24, 2016 Posted January 24, 2016 coolrok7 thank you again for your thoughts, not much time since I have just returned from my 1st job in which I work with and serve my non LDS christian and non LDS evangelical friends. Must get ready for my 2nd job and possibly seeing more of my non evangelical friends. Salvation is absolutly Free But it costs you your very life. In His Eternal Debt/Grace Anakin7
coolrok7 Posted January 24, 2016 Posted January 24, 2016 (edited) 22 hours ago, Anakin7 said: Thank you coolrok, we believe in the reception of True Grace [charis] by way of True Faith [pistis] as found in Holy writ. Must go to work, have a blesed day. In His Eternal Debt/Grace Anakin7 The bolded above is born out in the Mormon teaching of meriting eternal life which is not the Biblical teaching (Holy writ of the first century). You can say you, as well as other Mormons, believe this but it is denied by the adding of "after all we can do" to Ephesians 2:8-10 (where the saved by grace through faith, not of works statement of Paul comes from) by Joseph Smith, the words in letters of light, he read off the stone, not actually translated, in the hat (BofM not in the KJV) in the Mormon teaching of Exaltation/Eternal Progression of Gods which is seeking o be justified by law in which Mormons have fallen from grace: Quote 8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. (Ephesians 2:8-10) You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace. (Galatians 5:4) For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. (Romans 6:23) Faith in Jesus Christ, the Messiah of Biblical revelation, produces the good works. Luther stated the following of which I already quoted earlier (which answers James 2 in the context of dead works): On 1/12/2016 at 8:00 AM, coolrok7 said: works are not absent where faith is Edited January 24, 2016 by coolrok7 increased line spacing
Anakin7 Posted January 24, 2016 Posted January 24, 2016 Coolrok I meant going to work at my 2nd temporal "work job" not salvation. Will get back to his later. In His Eternal Debt/Grace Anakin7
Anakin7 Posted January 25, 2016 Posted January 25, 2016 Hummm, that is not the meaning I got from your polemical post, reread it and still reads polemical about my salvation not my 2nd job. Paul in prison wrote his letter to the Ephesian Saints who were being confronted by Judiizing Saints who were preaching to the True Saints that they needed to keep the Law of Moses along with the Gospel in which they were boasting of themselves keeping. That was Pauls point - no Law of Moses or self rightiousness were compatible with the True Gospel . True LDS have no O,T Mosaic code or self rightiousness that one must perform to gain Heaven. Once again you get 2 Nephi 25:23 wrong and out of context. It is not a employer - employee form model but that of a patron - client form model. halconero has provided material to you in reponse to your polemic, Our Heavenly Celestial Kingdom Mansion Gates, walls have repelled your fiery arrows and darts thrown at us along with our Shields of Faith, Breastplates of Rightiousness and Holy armour. Thank you for your concern. May you accept True Grace by way of True faith. The Atonement It Is the Central Doctrine Washing My Robes in The Blood of The Lamb Counting The Cost To Follow Him In His Eternal Debt/Grace Anakin7
Five Solas Posted January 25, 2016 Posted January 25, 2016 Hey halconero-- Just wanted to express my appreciation for you launching this thread in an effort to avoid derailing a previous thread I had going (which probably no one remembers at this point). And I want to apologize for getting a bit combative over a particular word choice & then not keeping up with subsequent posts. I'm still recovering from the holidays... :0) --Erik
coolrok7 Posted February 13, 2016 Posted February 13, 2016 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. (Ephesians 2:8-10) Anakin7, the first part of what you state below is correct but your claim (bolded below) is in fact what Mormonism ends up doing what you are denying (Paul wasn’t teaching “after all we can do”, this addition to what Paul actually wrote is not to be found anywhere in Biblical Scripture). I totally agree with what Paul wrote which includes walking in good works as the result of having faith in the Jesus of Biblical Revelation, brought about by the Holy Spirit, indwelling the believer: . . .Paul in prison wrote his letter to the Ephesian Saints who were being confronted by Judiizing Saints who were preaching to the True Saints that they needed to keep the Law of Moses along with the Gospel in which they were boasting of themselves keeping. That was Pauls point - no Law of Moses or self rightiousness were compatible with the True Gospel . True LDS have no O,T Mosaic code or self rightiousness that one must perform to gain Heaven. Once again you get 2 Nephi 25:23 wrong and out of context. . . . 2 Nephi 25:23 (red is the plagiarized part, bold is adding to the plagiarized part) below is a contradiction to what Paul taught above in the Biblical context of Ephesians 2:8-10 (speaking about how one is saved): . . .it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do. . . (2 Nephi 25:23b; JOSEPH SMITH JUNIOR, AUTHOR AND PROPRIETER- from the first printing of the Book of Mormon) It is not incumbent on anyone to accept other than the sixty-six canonical books of the Old/New Testaments as coming from God as far as Biblical truth goes. You subscribe to Mormon so-called “Scripture” (some of which is plagiarized from the KJV and then twisted by Joseph Smith and those that follow him, teaching a non-Biblical “Gospel”), I don’t: The first principles of men are self-existent with God. God himself, finding he was in the midst of spirits and glory, because he was more intelligent, saw proper to institute laws whereby the rest could have a privilege to advance like himself. . . . (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p.354) The Gospel of the Son of God that has been revealed is a plan or system of laws and ordinances, by strict obedience to which the people who inhabit this earth are assured that they may return again into the presence of the Father and the Son. (quoted in the pamphlet entitled, BRIGHAM YOUNG PROPHET STATESMAN PIONEER, 11/81; JOURNAL OF DISCOURSES, 13:233, Brigham Young) This is the Biblical Gospel and the result of believing it: Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures (1 Corinthians 15:1-4) 8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach; 9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. 10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. (Romans 10:8-10)
coolrok7 Posted February 13, 2016 Posted February 13, 2016 (edited) Mormons have their own laws and ordinances (in place of the Mosaic Law), a required righteousness of their own making (to gain the celestial kingdom, their version of heaven). This is purported to be accomplished in Mormon temples which leads to the following: Quote You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace. (Galatians 5:4) These were never a part of the Old Testament Levitical priesthood order in which one was required to be born of a certain tribe of Israel in order to do the required ordinances of the portable tabernacle. This while they were wandering in the wilderness and then in Jerusalem, once they settled there: Quote REQUIREMENTS FOR EXALTATION . . .There are specific ordinances we must have received to be exalted: 1. We must be baptized and confirmed a member of the Church of Jesus Christ. 2. We must receive the Holy Ghost. 3. We must receive the temple endowment. 4. We must be married for time and eternity. In addition to the required ordinances, there are also many laws we have to obey to qualify for exaltation—We must. . . (p.291) This is the way our Heavenly Father became a God. . . .Joseph Smith taught, “it is the first principle of the Gospel to know for a certainty the character of God. . .he was once a man like us, . . .God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ himself did” (p.293; Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, pp.345-46[King Follet Discourse]) As shown in this chapter our Father in heaven was once a man as we are now, capable of physical death. By obedience to eternal gospel principles, he progressed from one stage of life to another until he attained the state that we call exaltation or godhood. In such a condition, he and our mother in heaven were empowered to give birth to spirit children whose potential was equal to that of their heavenly parents. We are those spirit children. . . .It is this fact that makes marriage in a temple of God such an important step in our eternal progression. Elder Bruce R. McConkie has written this: “Celestial marriage is a holy and an eternal ordinance;. . .The most important things that any member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints ever does in this world are: 1. To marry the right person, by the right authority; and 2., to keep the covenant made in connection with this holy and perfect order of matrimony--thus assuring the obedient persons of an inheritance of exaltation in the celestial kingdom.” (Mormon Doctrine, p.118) (Achieving a Celestial Marriage, Salt Lake City: Church Education System, 1976, 1992, p.132) In regards to what you had stated below: Quote Thank you coolrok, we believe in the reception of True Grace [charis] by way of True Faith [pistis] as found in Holy writ. Must go to work, have a blesed day. In His Eternal Debt/Grace Anakin7 It was a play off the bolded part to illustrate the Mormon position on the teaching concerning Exaltation: we believe. . .Must go to work (I understood what you meant about your second job as I said, “I understood that”. The redefinitions of Biblical terminology engaged in by Mormons, for instance, “salvation” is referred to as “resurrection” being the gift which is not what the Bible teaches. Eternal life in Mormon Exaltation teaching is merited (as in “You May Earn Salvation” in the pamphlet I had quoted from): Quote You May Earn Salvation through Christ (THE PURPOSE OF LIFE pamphlet, p.4) By revelation, our Savior made known again the plan of salvation and exaltation. Resurrection comes as a gift to every man through Jesus Christ, but the reward of the highest eternal opportunities you must earn. It is not just enough to believe in Jesus Christ. You must work and learn, search and pray, repent and improve, know his laws and live them. (YOUR PRE-EARTH LIFE pamphlet, p.10) Thus, brothers and sisters, along with the great and free gift of the universal and personal resurrection there is also the personal possibility of meriting eternal life. (The Ensign, Elder Neal A. Maxwell, 1997, p.23) The above statement, “It is not just enough to believe” “You must work” juxtaposed to “not of works” is the crux of the issue. Paul in response to the Philippian jailer’s question, who was just about to kill himself, “what must I do to be saved?” Is, “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.” The Biblical gift of eternal life is gained as a promise of God through faith or belief in God. This is arrived at by grace through faith, not of yourselves, not of works” (in Mormonism, eternal life/exaltation is merited, the opposite of “not of works”): Quote For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. (Romans 6:23) But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life. This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men. (Titus 3:4-8) Edited February 13, 2016 by coolrok7
Anakin7 Posted February 14, 2016 Posted February 14, 2016 coolrok 7 it is a busy weekend, will post in the next few days. thank you for your polemical posts coolrok and your never ending criticisms that have been responded to adinfinentum. Thank you for caring enough to warn us it is appriciated. May you recieve True Grace. Perhaps others can continue to share with you. In His Eternal Debt/Grace Washing My Robes The Atonement It Is The Central Doctrine Anakin7
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