Anakin7 Posted May 3, 2016 Posted May 3, 2016 On April 26, 2016 at 7:52 AM, Anakin7 said: Jim thank you for the correction on the official name - Lutheran Church Missouri synod, I was tired and typed the Church title name wrong. The cartoon does not do much for me other than some reminders of past conversations with reformed christians who love to try and trap LDS missionaries and members using reformed doctrinal criticisms of 2 Nephi 25:23. One response to this - http://www.yorkshiretales.com/allaboutmormonism/page_shafovaloff_flunks_the_2_nephi_2523_test.html Which from my lights is superior to your cartoon link. May True Grace be with you and those you love. Washing My Robes In His Blood The Atonement it Is The Central Doctrine In His Eternal Debt/Grace Anakin7 Jim I am also awaiting your response to the above link by my LDS Saint/Christian Kryptonian Brother In Christ Jesus.
Abulafia Posted May 3, 2016 Posted May 3, 2016 This thread is a good example of why I prefer history to systematic theology! My own take is that attempts to harmonise different strands of belief will always come up wanting because the early christian communities had different approaches, different emphasises, and subtly different theological outlooks. That initial diversity is well reflected in this thread. Not only that, there were different interpretations of the concepts that Halconero mentions within 2nd temple Judaism. 4qmmt from Qumran points to works of the law, but any correlation with the Pauline idea must remain speculative. Atonement and purification are Jewish ideas in my view, they predate Jesus. The early christian communities took Jewish ideas, rituals and practices and adapted them. Made them relevant to their time and adapted them to a gentile audience. I also agree with Maidservant way up thread who outlined basic differences in approach to faith and works in James and Pauline writing...and the fact that for the author of Matthew Jesus didn't come to destroy law. (Matt 5) Redefine and prioritise, yes. Destroy, no. But given Jesus came mainly for the house of Israel, how non covenant peoples were to behave was up for grabs, and grab many people did! 1
Jim Stiles Posted May 4, 2016 Posted May 4, 2016 On 5/3/2016 at 11:10 PM, Anakin7 said: Still on hold waiting for Jim Stiles response to my LDS Saint/Christian Kryptonian Brother in Christ Jesus Mike Griffith link. Washing My Robes In The Blood Of The Lamb The Atonement It Is The Central Doctrine In His Eternal Debt/Grace Anakin7 Mike Griffith seems to be under the misunderstanding that Protestants are advocating antinomianism. This is not true. Being justified by God by faith, the believer will then be sanctified. If someone claims to believe, but refuses to be sanctified, then he does not believe. This sanctification continues throughout the believer's life on earth and will not be complete until after they die. If someone tells you that they are without sin, then that person is a liar. If someone tells you that they have done all that they can do, then that person is a liar. The Gospel of Christ, the Covenant of Grace, is needed because we have ALL lived our lives NOT doing all that we can do. Quote WESTMINSTER CONFESSION OF FAITH CHAPTER 13 Of Sanctification 1. They, who are once effectually called, and regenerated, having a new heart, and a new spirit created in them, are further sanctified, really and personally, through the virtue of Christ's death and resurrection, by his Word and Spirit dwelling in them: the dominion of the whole body of sin is destroyed, and the several lusts thereof are more and more weakened and mortified; and they more and more quickened and strengthened in all saving graces, to the practice of true holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord. 2. This sanctification is throughout, in the whole man; yet imperfect in this life, there abiding still some remnants of corruption in every part; whence ariseth a continual and irreconcilable war, the flesh lusting against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh. 3. In which war, although the remaining corruption, for a time, may much prevail; yet, through the continual supply of strength from the sanctifying Spirit of Christ, the regenerate part doth overcome; and so, the saints grow in grace, perfecting holiness in the fear of God. Scriptural proof texts are available upon request.
Anakin7 Posted May 5, 2016 Posted May 5, 2016 (edited) J.S thank you for your comments, some protestants do advocate antinomianism some do not claim antinomianism [Michael T. Griffith is a former Evangelical himself from my understanding]. One must accept/access/activate/grab hold of/obtain/receive/hold on to True Grace [Grace - which has approx 50 definitions within the spiritual/temporal realm] by way of True Faith [ Faith - which has approx 25 definitions within the spiritual/temporal realm, 10 of which are allegiance, commitment,confidence,dedication,devotion,faithfulness,fidelity,loyalty,obedience,trust]. One must endure in True Faith to receive the Person and work of Jesus Christ [His awesome Love/Belief/Faith/Covenant of Obedience atoning sacrifice - True Grace] on there behalf. If you live in a Calvinistic tent then it is just predestined to happen either way. But the post by Michael T. Griffith and his links to important ancient Church Leaders/Authorities support the LDS position. Try reading the context of 2 Nephi 25:23 and not in isolation. True LDS accept/believe in the Justification/Sanctification teachings. We wash our garments/robes in The Blood of the True Lamb of God by way of True Faith in His person. You still did not address the teachings of the ancient N.T /Authorities/Leaders statements and post N. T Authorities/Leaders statements that Michael T. Griffith linked to.Thank you for your concern for us it is appreciated. Have a Grace filled day. In His Eternal Debt/Grace Anakin7 Edited May 5, 2016 by Anakin7
Anakin7 Posted May 5, 2016 Posted May 5, 2016 A quote from John Wesley one of the founders of Methodism on his Rules of Conduct : Do all the good you can By all the means you can In all the ways you can In all places you can At all times you can As long as you can. In His Eternal Debt/Grace Anakin7 1
coolrok7 Posted July 2, 2016 Posted July 2, 2016 (edited) format wrong, will redo Edited July 2, 2016 by coolrok7 format wrong
coolrok7 Posted July 2, 2016 Posted July 2, 2016 Again, your “So?” objection thesometimesaint, in my view, isn’t valid in the context of Biblical Scripture (in which you are of course free to choose who/what you believe but Joseph Smith is not free to rewrite Scripture as he and others that followed him did and still do). Coolroc7: So? For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive”. SEE 1 Corinthians 15:22 Parable of Sheep and Goats SEE Matthew 25-31-46 The point being made is that the Mormonism of Joseph Smith, which derives from his specific teaching (which does not imply that he didn’t teach some truth), does not accurately reflect Biblical teaching at critical points of doctrine. I had initially responded to your “So”, quoting Jesus’ statement concerning those resurrected (resurrection is not necessarily to “eternal life” in what that means for a believer which is the point I think you’re missing): Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. (John 5:28-29) Spirits don’t die, bodies do (James 2:26a). God as spirit was not a man but Jesus, not the Father/Holy Spirit, as one of the Godhead, became a man as taught in Matthew 1 as Emmanuel which means, God with us, in order to suffer death: 23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us. (Matthew 1:23) 30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God. 31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name Jesus. (Luke 1:30-31) 9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, for the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, that He, by the grace of God, might taste death for everyone. (Hebrews 2:9) Joseph Smith’s statement, concerning the Father having a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man’s, is not the Biblical teaching. Your response was: Salvation for the dead is resurrection, and Resurrection is for all. Eternal Life is God’s life. No. We don’t turn into goats and sheep. It is a parable of what happens after we die. (April 24) Are you not aware of Jesus using the analogy of His followers being sheep, He being the shepherd of the sheep? Eternal life (for the sheep), in contrast to eternal punishment (for the goats) are juxtaposed. Both groups are raised from the dead, the distinction being eternal life for the believer which will be in a resurrected, glorified body, receiving for eternity what God has promised. The unbeliever, being in a resurrected unglorified body, being in an eternal torment state of existence referred to by Jesus as hell: And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. (Matthew 10:28) The resurrection of Jesus did take place which guarantee’s eternal life for all believers. In the two verses you referred to, Paul’s context is arguing for the reality of our promised resurrection to eternal life in a glorified body (“we shall be like him” as John says below which is His resurrected form, not His Deity), because of Jesus’ resurrection from the dead: Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not. 2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. (1 John 3:2) It is the believing the Gospel, the Good News of Jesus Christ dying for our sins, not the following of Old Testament Law which only condemns as one does not have the ability to perfectly obey them without sinning as Jesus did. For: 19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. 20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin. 21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; 22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: 23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; 24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: 25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; 26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. 27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. 28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. 29 Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also: 30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith. 31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law. (Romans 3:19-31) I would say that most Mormons are unaware that they are using the same terminology with different assigned meanings as in the Mormon “Punishment” statement I posted from a pamphlet, published by the Mormon Church, which is inconsistent with and in which accomplishes the distorting/twisting of the truth of God. The “gift” is not “Resurrection” and the promised “eternal life” is not earned, merited, or worked for as in Mormonism, known as exaltation to godhood/eternal progression: By revelation, our Savior made known again the plan of salvation and exaltation. Resurrection comes as a gift to every man through Jesus Christ, but the reward of the highest eternal opportunities you must earn. It is not just enough to believe in Jesus Christ. You must work and learn, search and pray, repent and improve, know his laws and live them. (YOUR PRE-EARTH LIFE pamphlet, p.10) Thus, brothers and sisters, along with the great and free gift of the universal and personal resurrection there is also the personal possibility of meriting eternal life. (The Ensign, Elder Neal A. Maxwell, 1997, p.23) . . .God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, . . . (History of the Church, Joseph Smith Jr., April 1844, 6:305) The first principles of men are self-existent with God. God himself, finding he was in the midst of spirits and glory, because he was more intelligent, saw proper to institute laws whereby the rest could have a privilege to advance like himself. . . . (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p.354) The Gospel of the Son of God that has been revealed is a plan or system of laws and ordinances, by strict obedience to which the people who inhabit this earth are assured that they may return again into the presence of the Father and the Son. (quoted in the pamphlet entitled, BRIGHAM YOUNG PROPHET STATESMAN PIONEER, 11/81; JOURNAL OF DISCOURSES, 13:233, Brigham Young) Our Heavenly Parents have through aeons of time and a multitude of experiences gradually become acquainted with and applied in Their lives an untold number of these everlasting laws. As they learned these verities and how to operate them, these laws thereby became subject unto Elohim and henceforth were His laws—or, in other words, the Gospel of Jesus Christ. (The Gospel Through the Ages, Milton R. Hunter, p.4) Jesus became a God and reached His great state of understanding through consistent effort and continuous obedience to all the Gospel truths and universal laws. (The Gospel Through the Ages, Milton R. Hunter, p.51) The following refutes the above Mormon teaching stated above: For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. (Romans 6:23) For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. (Ephesians 2:8-10) Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures (1 Corinthians 15:1-4)
RevTestament Posted July 2, 2016 Posted July 2, 2016 The statement in John 4 about the father being spirit is not a statement about his ontological being. He is the father of spirits, and therefore if a literal Greek reading was to be followed we are all spirit. In Exodus the father tells Moses that he cannot see him, but allows him to see his back parts. In fact he says no man can see him and live. This is a very funny statement for an invisible Spirit to say. Because an invisible Spirit would not be concerned about men's seeing him and therefore dying. In John 4 Jesus was merely teaching that the Father wishes to be worshiped in spirit, and goes on to indicate in John 5 that He has shape. The insistence that the Father has no body or physical form is an example of literal reading gone amok. 2
Vance Posted July 4, 2016 Posted July 4, 2016 coolrok7, May I suggest that you go and get your definition of grace correct FIRST, then come and talk to us.
TheSkepticChristian Posted July 4, 2016 Posted July 4, 2016 1 hour ago, Vance said: coolrok7, May I suggest that you go and get your definition of grace correct FIRST, then come and talk to us. You guys look like them
Anakin7 Posted July 4, 2016 Posted July 4, 2016 True LDS Doctrine/Teaching/Thought/Practice/Walk/Run is that we are Saved by True Grace [charis] Alone through True Faith [pistis[] alone as understood by the Ancheint N.T Saints/Christians. In His Eternal Debt/Grace Anakin
Anakin7 Posted July 4, 2016 Posted July 4, 2016 2 hours ago, Vance said: coolrok7, May I suggest that you go and get your definition of grace correct FIRST, then come and talk to us. Vance have we not asked this of him in times past ?. We still need to Love him. In His Eternal Debt/Grace Anakin7
coolrok7 Posted July 4, 2016 Posted July 4, 2016 (edited) How about answering the quotes in context? I provided what Mormon general Authorities teach in adding to, taking away from clear biblical statements in context. Edited July 4, 2016 by coolrok7
Vance Posted July 5, 2016 Posted July 5, 2016 9 hours ago, coolrok7 said: How about answering the quotes in context? I provided what Mormon general Authorities teach in adding to, taking away from clear biblical statements in context. How about getting your definition of grace correct. Once you have the correct definition of grace the statements of Mormon General Authorities fit perfectly with the teachings of Jesus. Your continued misrepresentation of Mormon theology and your misinterpretation of biblical statements are not accepted. When one correctly understands the teaching found in the bible and one correctly represents Mormon theology is when one begins to understand the truth. Quite frankly, Jesus taught the same thing as Mormon General Authorities. John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. Matt 19:16 ¶ And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? 17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. Matt 25:31 ¶ When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: 32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: 33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: 36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. 37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? 38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? 39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? 40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me. 41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: 42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: 43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. 44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? 45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. 46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal. The clear and plain teachings of Jesus ARE PREEMINENT to all of your misunderstanding of the words of Paul. So, go and get your definition of grace cleaned up before you waste our time with your drivel.
Vance Posted July 5, 2016 Posted July 5, 2016 John 6:27 Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed. There that Jesus goes again. Totally destroying you argument.
Vance Posted July 5, 2016 Posted July 5, 2016 Luke 10:25 ¶ And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? 26 He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou? 27 And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself. 28 And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live. 29 But he, willing to justify himself, said unto Jesus, And who is my neighbour? 30 And Jesus answering said, A certain man went down from Jerusalem to Jericho, and fell among thieves, which stripped him of his raiment, and wounded him, and departed, leaving him half dead. 31 And by chance there came down a certain priest that way: and when he saw him, he passed by on the other side. 32 And likewise a Levite, when he was at the place, came and looked on him, and passed by on the other side. 33 But a certain Samaritan, as he journeyed, came where he was: and when he saw him, he had compassion on him, 34 And went to him, and bound up his wounds, pouring in oil and wine, and set him on his own beast, and brought him to an inn, and took care of him. 35 And on the morrow when he departed, he took out two pence, and gave them to the host, and said unto him, Take care of him; and whatsoever thou spendest more, when I come again, I will repay thee. 36 Which now of these three, thinkest thou, was neighbour unto him that fell among the thieves? 37 And he said, He that shewed mercy on him. Then said Jesus unto him, Go, and do thou likewise. That Jesus guy totally destroys your argument, AGAIN!!!
Vance Posted July 5, 2016 Posted July 5, 2016 Luke 18:18 And a certain ruler asked him, saying, Good Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? 19 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is, God. 20 Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother. . . . Notice that Jesus didn't say "do nothing, just sit back and accept the unmerited grace that I give to the totally indolent". 21 And he said, All these have I kept from my youth up. 22 Now when Jesus heard these things, he said unto him, Yet lackest thou one thing: sell all that thou hast, and distribute unto the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me. He had to DO one more thing. He had to OBEY one more commandment. That Jesus guy totally destroys your argument, AGAIN!!!
Vance Posted July 5, 2016 Posted July 5, 2016 John 4:35 Say not ye, There are yet four months, and then cometh harvest? behold, I say unto you, Lift up your eyes, and look on the fields; for they are white already to harvest. 36 And he that reapeth receiveth wages, and gathereth fruit unto life eternal: that both he that soweth and he that reapeth may rejoice together. That Jesus guy totally destroys your argument, AGAIN!!!
Vance Posted July 5, 2016 Posted July 5, 2016 John 12:49 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. 50 And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak. That Jesus guy totally destroys your argument, AGAIN!!!
Vance Posted July 5, 2016 Posted July 5, 2016 Act 11:18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life. There that Peter guy goes, destroying your argument. Of course, it would be helpful for you if you had the correct understanding of repentance.
Vance Posted July 5, 2016 Posted July 5, 2016 Rom 2:6 (God) Who will render to every man according to his deeds: 7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: 8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, 9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; 10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: There that Paul guy goes, destroying your argument.
Vance Posted July 5, 2016 Posted July 5, 2016 Rom 6:22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life. There that Paul guy does it again, destroying your argument. Just go get your definition of grace corrected, and your understanding of repentance, then we can have a real conversation.
Vance Posted July 5, 2016 Posted July 5, 2016 10 hours ago, coolrok7 said: How about answering the quotes in context? I provided what Mormon general Authorities teach in adding to, taking away from clear biblical statements in context. How about you answering the quotes of Jesus, Peter and Paul, in context? I provided what Jesus, Peter and Paul teach from clear biblical statements in context that TOTALLY destroy your argument. 1
Anakin7 Posted July 5, 2016 Posted July 5, 2016 (edited) Have been gone for a period of time Washing my Garments and other Labors. Great response to coolrok7 Vance my LDS Brother in Christ Jesus. Also inviting coolrok again to obtain True Grace by way of True Faith. Washing My Garments In His Blood The Atonement it is The Central Doctrine In His Eternal Debt/Grace Anakin7 Edited July 5, 2016 by Anakin7
Vance Posted July 13, 2016 Posted July 13, 2016 On 7/4/2016 at 9:20 AM, coolrok7 said: How about answering the quotes in context? You haven't answered my quotes in context. I am confident that when you answer my quotes in context, you will have the answer to your quotes in context. It has been rather quiet around here, I hope you are well.
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