coolrok7 Posted November 19, 2016 Posted November 19, 2016 (edited) Bottom line is what Scripture means in a given context as this is where doctrine originates as recorded by those who were inspired to write down (Scripture) being moved on by God: Quote 14 But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them; 15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. 16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works. (2 Timothy 3:14-17) What you state here (bolded red) is not Biblical in attempting to hijack what I had said, the bolded black is and is obtained by grace, not our merit (not of works). Obedience is a given and a natural product of having faith: Quote If you really have faith in God you will obey him. So, clearly, eternal life IS A GIFT given to the obedient. So, by being obedient to God, according to HIS PROMISE we will receive eternal life. So, in a way, we merit the promise of eternal life by being obedient. That is what you are claiming with your statement and that is what we believe. So, WHAT IS YOUR PROBLEM????? What I actually believe is Biblical as I expressed here: Quote The Biblical gift of eternal life is gained as a promise of God through faith or belief in God. The Biblical teaching: Quote For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. (Romans 6:23) As contrasted with the Mormon teaching of meriting eternal life: Quote By revelation, our Savior made known again the plan of salvation and exaltation. Resurrection comes as a gift to every man through Jesus Christ, but the reward of the highest eternal opportunities you must earn. It is not just enough to believe in Jesus Christ. You must work and learn, search and pray, repent and improve, know his laws and live them. (YOUR PRE-EARTH LIFE pamphlet, p.10) Thus, brothers and sisters, along with the great and free gift of the universal and personal resurrection there is also the personal possibility of meriting eternal life. (The Ensign, Elder Neal A. Maxwell, 1997, p.23) The "PROBLEM" stems from this specifically Mormon non-Biblical teaching known as eternal progression: Quote As shown in this chapter our Father in heaven was once a man as we are now, capable of physical death. By obedience to eternal gospel principles, he progressed from one stage of life to another until he attained the state that we call exaltation or godhood. In such a condition, he and our mother in heaven were empowered to give birth to spirit children whose potential was equal to that of their heavenly parents. We are those spirit children. . . .It is this fact that makes marriage in a temple of God such an important step in our eternal progression. Elder Bruce R. McConkie has written this: “Celestial marriage is a holy and an eternal ordinance; . . .The most important things that any member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints ever does in this world are: 1. To marry the right person, by the right authority; and 2., to keep the covenant made in connection with this holy and perfect order of matrimony—thus assuring the obedient persons of an inheritance of exaltation in the celestial kingdom.” (Mormon Doctrine, p.118) (Achieving a Celestial Marriage, Salt Lake City: Church Education System, 1976, 1992, p.132) Edited November 19, 2016 by coolrok7
thesometimesaint Posted November 19, 2016 Posted November 19, 2016 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. Revelation 20:12
RevTestament Posted November 19, 2016 Posted November 19, 2016 1 hour ago, coolrok7 said: Bottom line is what Scripture means in a given context as this is where doctrine originates as recorded by those who were inspired to write down (Scripture) being moved on by God: What you state here (bolded red) is not Biblical in attempting to hijack what I had said, the bolded black is and is obtained by grace, not our merit (not of works). Obedience is a given and a natural product of having faith: What I actually believe is Biblical as I expressed here: The Biblical teaching: As contrasted with the Mormon teaching of meriting eternal life: The "PROBLEM" stems from this specifically Mormon non-Biblical teaching known as eternal progression: 50 minutes ago, thesometimesaint said: And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. Revelation 20:12 SometimesSaint - Protestants have Greek Linear glasses that see only one way to interpret Paul - that is to the exclusion of all the other scriptures - including Paul - which indicate we will be judged according to our works. They take about 3-4 verses out of Paul and build a whole gospel of do-nothingness "grace" out of it. They don't understand the Hebrew thinking was one of action. To believe on Christ is not just to accept Him with ur mouth, but to follow Him in one's actions. To be Christian is to love others, and to do that calls us to act. The fence sitter that accepts Christ with his mouth and then sits on the sidelines will be sadly disappointed in the last day of judgment. There are plenty of scriptures including Paul which support this fact... They ignore them to their own demise. 1
Vance Posted November 19, 2016 Posted November 19, 2016 54 minutes ago, coolrok7 said: Bottom line is what Scripture means in a given context as this is where doctrine originates as recorded by those who were inspired to write down (Scripture) being moved on by God: Quote 14 But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them; 15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. 16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works. (2 Timothy 3:14-17) Ok, so? "instruction in righteousness" means learning to be obedient. And "That the man of God may be perfect," means to be complete in obedience. And "thoroughly furnished unto all good works." also means to be obedient. So your whining about Mormonism is totally meaningless and baseless. What you state here (bolded red) is not Biblical in attempting to hijack what I had said, the bolded black is and is obtained by grace, not our merit (not of works). Obedience is a given and a natural product of having faith: Quote If you really have faith in God you will obey him. So, clearly, eternal life IS A GIFT given to the obedient. So, by being obedient to God, according to HIS PROMISE we will receive eternal life. So, in a way, we merit the promise of eternal life by being obedient. That is what you are claiming with your statement and that is what we believe. So, WHAT IS YOUR PROBLEM????? We ARE saved by grace not by works (of the law of Moses), nor by works of righteousness. BUT grace IS GIVEN to the obedient. Can you show a single instance were the righteous are not saved? No, and as John says, (1 John 3:7) Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. What I actually believe is Biblical as I expressed here: Quote The Biblical gift of eternal life is gained as a promise of God through faith or belief in God. Talk about Bible worship!!! The Bible doesn't give eternal life, only God can do that. It is true that eternal life is a gift that is gained through faith. But to have faith you must be obedient. Believing in God isn't enough, you must also demonstrate your faith by obedience. Faith without works is not real faith it is just DEAD. The Biblical teaching: Quote For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. (Romans 6:23) That is a Mormon teaching. Eternal life is the greatest GIFT of God. It is a gift that God gives to the obedient. As contrasted with the Mormon teaching of meriting eternal life: Quote By revelation, our Savior made known again the plan of salvation and exaltation. Resurrection comes as a gift to every man through Jesus Christ, but the reward of the highest eternal opportunities you must earn. It is not just enough to believe in Jesus Christ. You must work and learn, search and pray, repent and improve, know his laws and live them. (YOUR PRE-EARTH LIFE pamphlet, p.10) Thus, brothers and sisters, along with the great and free gift of the universal and personal resurrection there is also the personal possibility of meriting eternal life. (The Ensign, Elder Neal A. Maxwell, 1997, p.23) "know his laws and live them" is simply what Jesus taught. Jesus gave commandments for a reason. And he clearly taught what obedience to his commandments would result in. It is no clearer than in this statement, And, if you keep my commandments and endure to the end you shall have eternal life, which gift is the greatest of all the gifts of God. That is what Jesus taught, Rev 22"14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. "right to the tree of life" is the same as "meriting eternal life". So your continual whining about statements that do not conflict with the teachings of Jesus is just plain juvenile. The fact that they conflict with your personal (and faulty mis) interpretation of scripture is of no concern. The "PROBLEM" stems from this specifically Mormon non-Biblical teaching known as eternal progression: I have already demonstrated that the "biblical" Jesus is a progressing God. So, just stop your juvenile whining. 1
Anakin7 Posted November 21, 2016 Posted November 21, 2016 For coolrok The LDS Evangelical in me - http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/destiny.htm . Thank you for your consistent reminding us of our faulty Doctrine of salvation it is appreciated. May you obtain The True Grace of Jesus Christ by way of a True Faith in Jesus Christ. May you and your family be Blessed this day. The Atonement It Is The Central Doctrine Washing my Garment/Robe In The Blood of The Lamb In His Eternal Debt/Grace Anakin7
thesometimesaint Posted November 21, 2016 Posted November 21, 2016 On 11/19/2016 at 11:59 AM, RevTestament said: SometimesSaint - Protestants have Greek Linear glasses that see only one way to interpret Paul - that is to the exclusion of all the other scriptures - including Paul - which indicate we will be judged according to our works. They take about 3-4 verses out of Paul and build a whole gospel of do-nothingness "grace" out of it. They don't understand the Hebrew thinking was one of action. To believe on Christ is not just to accept Him with ur mouth, but to follow Him in one's actions. To be Christian is to love others, and to do that calls us to act. The fence sitter that accepts Christ with his mouth and then sits on the sidelines will be sadly disappointed in the last day of judgment. There are plenty of scriptures including Paul which support this fact... They ignore them to their own demise. I dislike telling others what they believe. But I am fine with what I believe.
coolrok7 Posted April 3, 2017 Posted April 3, 2017 Quote Christians speak often of the blood of Christ and its cleansing power. Much that is believed and taught on this subject, however, is such utter nonsense and so palpably false that to believe it is to lose one’s salvation. For instance, many believe or pretend to believe that if we confess Christ with our lips and avow that we accept him as our personal Savior, we are thereby saved. They say that his blood, without any other act than mere belief, makes us clean. (“WHAT THE MORMONS THINK OF CHRIST” pamphlet, pp.19-20) Quoting about the blood of Jesus in your sign off Anakin7, is it the Mormon version or the Christian Biblical version (it's not just "mere belief" but belief in the truth)? Quote If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin. (1 John 1:6-7) In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace; . . . But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. . . . And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh. (Ephesians 1:7; 2:13, 16-17) Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life. (Romans 5:9-10) Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: (1 Peter 1:18-19) Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood. (Acts 20:28) For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect. For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God. For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the under-standing of the prudent. Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe. For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom: But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumbling block, and unto the Greeks foolishness; (1 Corinthians 1:17-23)
Anakin7 Posted April 4, 2017 Posted April 4, 2017 (edited) coolrok7 welcome back. Well right out of the gate again you attack/criticize LDS True Christian and Biblical Doctrine/Teaching/Thought/Practice/Walk/Run/Journey with your arrows and darts, thank you again I feel blessed for so being so persecuted. Your question regarding my True sign off salutation of which you question and criticize is Christian and Biblical. I noticed no criticism in my - " The Atonement It Is The Central Doctrine" which is a statement by a past LDS Church leader [ I will let you research who that is ] which is Christian and Biblical, and also my parting -"In His Debt/Grace" which I have read/seen other non LDS Christians use. My Washing my Garment/Robe is also Christian and Biblical as you know, were you aware that it also is found in The Book of Mormon as well ?. The same Truth is found in both volumes of scripture - The Bible and The Book of Mormon.To wash one's Garment/Robe -Rev 21:14 [Some Bible versions have "keep my commandments" in 21:14]. There is no problem with these 2 different readings, if you are washing your robe in Jesus Christs Blood you are keeping the commandments, if you are keeping the commandments you are washing your robe in Jesus Christ Blood, they are interchangeable. Belief in the Truth also demands obeying The Truth, True Belief/Believing are action words of obedience. [See link in next post below]. Well must depart now have a True Grace filled day. May you accept/access/activate/grab hold of/receive/hold on to True Grace by way of True Faith. The Atonement It Is The Central Doctrine Washing My Garment/Robe In His Blood In His Eternal Debt/Grace Anakin7 Edited April 4, 2017 by Anakin7
Anakin7 Posted April 4, 2017 Posted April 4, 2017 If you Believe on Jesus Christ it is the same as obeying Him. http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/believing.htm The Atonement It Is The Central Doctrine Washing My Garment/Robe In His Blood In His Eternal Debt/Grace Anakin7
filovirus Posted April 4, 2017 Posted April 4, 2017 By revelation, our Savior made known again the plan of salvation and exaltation. Resurrection comes as a gift to every man through Jesus Christ, but the reward of the highest eternal opportunities you must earn. It is not just enough to believe in Jesus Christ. You must work and learn, search and pray, repent and improve, know his laws and live them. (YOUR PRE-EARTH LIFE pamphlet, p.10) Thus, brothers and sisters, along with the great and free gift of the universal and personal resurrection there is also the personal possibility of meriting eternal life. (The Ensign, Elder Neal A. Maxwell, 1997, p.23) - I interpret this differently than you. I understand is more as how Matthew put it: "This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me." The gospel is one of action, not just an expression of belief.
clarkgoble Posted April 4, 2017 Posted April 4, 2017 It seems to me it's not clear if there's a difference in doctrine or rhetoric. It seems to me the two are being conflated. The main idea within Mormonism is that part of the atonement made us free to be able to choose God or reject him. Further God granted us a probationary time so we could freely make that choice. We are then restored to be the type of person we choose to be. The atonement thus has three components. First to enable us to be free to choose liberty and eternal life or reject it. Second to restore us to be the type of being we wish to be. Finally to, if we choose it, have a perfection of glory.
Vance Posted April 7, 2017 Posted April 7, 2017 Quote For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect. For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God. For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the under-standing of the prudent. Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe. For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom: But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumbling block, and unto the Greeks foolishness; (1 Corinthians 1:17-23) I was just looking at this and the 4 other verses that seem to indicate that salvation had been completed. When I looked at the interlinear Greek, I got a totally different take. In all five cases, the real meaning was not "are saved" but rather "are being saved", indicating an unfinished process. That being said, it is no surprise that colrok again puts forth the false dichotomy of Quote Mormon version or the Christian Biblical version Mosiah 3: 16, 18 16 And even if it were possible that little children could sin they could not be saved; but I say unto you they are blessed; for behold, as in Adam, or by nature, they fall, even so the blood of Christ atoneth for their sins. • • • 18 For behold he judgeth, and his judgment is just; and the infant perisheth not that dieth in his infancy; but men drink damnation to their own souls except they humble themselves and become as little children, and believe that salvation was, and is, and is to come, in and through the atoning blood of Christ, the Lord Omnipotent. Mosiah 4: 2 2 And they had viewed themselves in their own carnal state, even less than the dust of the earth. And they all cried aloud with one voice, saying: O have mercy, and apply the atoning blood of Christ that we may receive forgiveness of our sins, and our hearts may be purified; for we believe in Jesus Christ, the Son of God, who created heaven and earth, and all things; who shall come down among the children of men. Alma 5: 27 27 Have ye walked, keeping yourselves blameless before God? Could ye say, if ye were called to die at this time, within yourselves, that ye have been sufficiently humble? That your garments have been cleansed and made white through the blood of Christ, who will come to redeem his people from their sins? Hel. 5: 9 9 O remember, remember, my sons, the words which king Benjamin spake unto his people; yea, remember that there is no other way nor means whereby man can be saved, only through the atoning blood of Jesus Christ, who shall come; yea, remember that he cometh to redeem the world. Moro. 10: 33 33 And again, if ye by the grace of God are perfect in Christ, and deny not his power, then are ye sanctified in Christ by the grace of God, through the shedding of the blood of Christ, which is in the covenant of the Father unto the remission of your sins, that ye become holy, without spot.
Vance Posted April 7, 2017 Posted April 7, 2017 Quote If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin. (1 John 1:6-7) . . . In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace; . . . Wherein in time past ye walked (notice past tense) according to the course of this world . . . in times past in the lusts of our flesh (notice past tense). . . created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them . . . But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. . . . And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh. (Ephesians 1:7; 2:13, 16-17) (God) Who will render to every man according to his deeds: To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, . . .Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life. (Romans 2:6-8,5:9-10) . . . through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience. . . As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts (notice past tense) in your ignorance: . . .so be ye holy in all manner of conversation; Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy. And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man’s work . . . Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: (1 Peter 1:2, 14-19) Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood. For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock. Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them. (Acts 20:28-30) For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect. For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God. For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the under-standing of the prudent. Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe. For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom: But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumbling block, and unto the Greeks foolishness; (1 Corinthians 1:17-23) Just a few things colrok missed. 1
Vance Posted April 7, 2017 Posted April 7, 2017 1 Ne. 11: 33 33 And I, Nephi, saw that he was lifted up upon the cross and slain for the sins of the world. Jacob 1: 8 8 Wherefore, we would to God that we could persuade all men not to rebel against God, to provoke him to anger, but that all men would believe in Christ, and view his death, and suffer his cross and bear the shame of the world; wherefore, I, Jacob, take it upon me to fulfil the commandment of my brother Nephi. 3 Ne. 27: 14 14 And my Father sent me that I might be lifted up upon the cross; and after that I had been lifted up upon the cross, that I might draw all men unto me, that as I have been lifted up by men even so should men be lifted up by the Father, to stand before me, to be judged of their works, whether they be good or whether they be evil—
coolrok7 Posted May 10, 2017 Posted May 10, 2017 Anakin7, It was a simple question in reference to your signoff concerning: "Washing My Garment/Robe In The Blood of the Lamb". This was in contrast to what I had quoted before your response saying I was attacking/criticizing LDS. The emphasis was the bolded part: Quote Christians speak often of the blood of Christ and its cleansing power. Much that is believed and taught on this subject, however, is such utter nonsense and so palpably false that to believe it is to lose one’s salvation. For instance, many believe or pretend to believe that if we confess Christ with our lips and avow that we accept him as our personal Savior, we are thereby saved. They say that his blood, without any other act than mere belief, makes us clean. (pp.19-20)” “WHAT THE MORMONS THINK OF CHRIST” pamphlet It is based on our Mariner meeting some time ago when we first met in person I had mentioned in earlier threads before I actually knew who you were at these meetings where to me it sounded like (I wasn't involved in your discussion with others, just listening) you were using evangelical terminology explaining Mormon doctrine.
Anakin7 Posted May 11, 2017 Posted May 11, 2017 (edited) I will get back to this later when time allows. The Atonement It Is The Central Doctrine Washing My Garment/Robe In The Blood Of The Lamb In His Eternal Debt/Grace Anakin7 Edited May 11, 2017 by Anakin7
Anakin7 Posted May 15, 2017 Posted May 15, 2017 Coolrok7 and all others, I have a brief few moments in time now, my family has been having some physical medical trials but by The True Grace of Christ [ Yes coolrok7 The LDS Saintly/Christian/Biblical Form/model which is The Truth ] we are recovering with strength from THE LORD Of LIFE/LORD/REDEEMER/SAVIOR/GOD/KING/MASTER CHRIST JESUS and we are doing better. I have gone back and read a # of responses to your polemics against us by way of other LDS Sentinels/Sons of Thunder in this thread and I find them in concert with what is found in Holy writ as contained in The Holy Bible. Halcanero in a past post has shown that we do not have a employer - employee form/model of salvation soteriology as you accuse us of but an ancient Biblical Patron/Client form/model salvation soteriology. Vance as well has shown your responses lack the original understanding of Grace/Faith in The N.T and Paul's understanding ingrained in his heart/mind concerning these word, not mere words but True Grace infused nature ingrained in the spirit and soul of an individual. He has shown also context of scripture which you seem not to see. I as well have linked to LDS and non LDS Christian sites that support our Christian Biblical position. As a Lutheran, you yourself are shown the errors of your forms/models of worship by other non LDS christians - Catholic/Eastern Orthodox/ other protestant churches/denominations, do you not answer there call to you at your front/back/side doors,windows concerning the claims of non christianity, cultish practices, errors of theology and the problems with Lutheranism's grandfather Martin Luther and his character ?. Must go now, will post more when time allows. Salvation is absolutely free 2 Nephi 2:4 but it costs us our very life Luke 14:25-35. Our old Natures must be crucified with Christ regularly on a daily basis. As the song says - : "I need Thee every hour", amen to that. May you and all who read this have a True Grace filled day. The Atonement It Is The Central Doctrine Washing My Garment In The Blood Of The Lamb In His Eternal Debt/Grace Anakin7
coolrok7 Posted May 16, 2017 Posted May 16, 2017 Sorry to hear about your medical issues Anakin7. Glad to see you're doing better (or "we", whoever it applies to). I do have problems though with the in part quotes from the New testament time period, the first 100 years A.D. (from between 588 and 570 B.C. as stated in the BofM Intro to 2 Nephi 2). The term "free" of "salvation is free" has a note c in verse 4 which in a list of applicable verses refers to the term "grace" of Ephesians 2:8 in which it is listed as one of eighty Bible and BofM references provided I counted correctly: c TG Grace. Also when you get a chance, what model is reflected in Romans chapter 4? (more specifically 4:2). What is specifically being addressed in the thread was stated in the beginning by Halconero of which I disagree with his premise. What brought me into the discussion was when I responded to your post on page 3 of this thread concerning Sanctification (Your post dated 12/13/15). You had stated: Quote A better understanding is that we believe in obtaining and staying in True Grace [charis] for our Salvation by way of True Faith [pistis - allegience/commitment/confidence/devotion/dedication/faithfulnes/fidelity/loyalty/obediece/trust to the Person and work of Christ Jesus. We accept/access/activate/grab hold of/hold on to True Grace by True Faith http://www.biblestudyonjesuschrist.com/index-pc.html .We labor for the Lord. I had responded in the next post after yours: Quote Or in another word, "Sanctification" On page 4 you then posted this Posted December 13, 2015 (edited)(not sure where this came from): Quote And to show we wish to remain Justified and stay in True Grace by way of True Faith coolrok7. No OSAS. In His Eternal Debt/Grace. Anakin7 In which I responded with (to which Sanctification is in reference to "remain Justified" is applicable I believe in my above comment): Quote I thought we finished the OSAS. I'm not a promoter of the term. The Biblical teaching is that God's declared Judgment on all those (even those who walk away form God's general revelation in Romans 1) who choose not to accept His Son's sacrifice in the atonement, can walk away from that after having been confronted by the message of the Gospel, what Jesus accomplished on the cross, for our Justification (which is what Mormonism does in, "after all we can do" Joseph Smith's addition to "by grace are we saved. . .not of works"). . . . If one is not Justified by faith either in general or specific revelation of Romans 1&2, then Sanctification is not even relevant.
FormerLDS Posted May 17, 2017 Posted May 17, 2017 Hello Friends, "Eternal Life" is somewhat difficult for non-LDS believers to try explain because LDS Christians have been taught very different salvation concepts and definitions for words. [It's been by experience that it is easiest for LDS to comprehend biblical "eternal life" by focusing on the words of Jesus Christ rather than passages that paraphrase or expound upon His foundational doctrine of "eternal life". You cannot use "salvation" because that means something totally different to LDS Christians, but LDS "eternal life" is unique with only one definition and that being the very highest form of salvation possible which we all will agree.] With that in mind, the "eternal life" that Jesus Christ offers drastically and completely different from the LDS doctrine of "eternal life" many ways. Here are two key differences: 1. The "eternal life" that Jesus Christ offers is given during mortality, not after mortality. John 6:47 "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life." John 6:54 "Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day." 2. The "eternal life" that Jesus Christ gives changes a dead man into a new man during mortality, not after mortality. It is literally a resurrection from the dead, but during mortality. John 5:24 "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life." John 6:53 "Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you." Those who receive the "eternal life" that Jesus Christ gives receive His sinless perfection within their new, living man within, thus meeting 100% of heavenly Father's sinless perfection/obedience requirement. The "new man" is sinless just as if he obeyed all commandments perfectly. Knowing this should help answer the other questions and concerns shared by many LDS Christians and brought up on this and similar discussions. All other religions can only offer a "promise" or hope-so/one-day/maybe-so "eternal life", but only Jesus offers an iron-clad guarantee gift of eternal life to all right now.
RevTestament Posted May 17, 2017 Posted May 17, 2017 23 minutes ago, FormerLDS said: Hello Friends, "Eternal Life" is somewhat difficult for non-LDS believers to try explain because LDS Christians have been taught very different salvation concepts and definitions for words. [It's been by experience that it is easiest for LDS to comprehend biblical "eternal life" by focusing on the words of Jesus Christ rather than passages that paraphrase or expound upon His foundational doctrine of "eternal life". You cannot use "salvation" because that means something totally different to LDS Christians, but LDS "eternal life" is unique with only one definition and that being the very highest form of salvation possible which we all will agree.] With that in mind, the "eternal life" that Jesus Christ offers drastically and completely different from the LDS doctrine of "eternal life" many ways. Here are two key differences: 1. The "eternal life" that Jesus Christ offers is given during mortality, not after mortality. John 6:47 "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life." John 6:54 "Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day." 2. The "eternal life" that Jesus Christ gives changes a dead man into a new man during mortality, not after mortality. It is literally a resurrection from the dead, but during mortality. John 5:24 "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life." John 6:53 "Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you." Those who receive the "eternal life" that Jesus Christ gives receive His sinless perfection within their new, living man within, thus meeting 100% of heavenly Father's sinless perfection/obedience requirement. The "new man" is sinless just as if he obeyed all commandments perfectly. Knowing this should help answer the other questions and concerns shared by many LDS Christians and brought up on this and similar discussions. All other religions can only offer a "promise" or hope-so/one-day/maybe-so "eternal life", but only Jesus offers an iron-clad guarantee gift of eternal life to all right now. There is nothing in LDS doctrine which prevents us from having life in Christ right now. Your whole premise is mistaken.
FormerLDS Posted May 17, 2017 Posted May 17, 2017 1 hour ago, RevTestament said: There is nothing in LDS doctrine which prevents us from having life in Christ right now. Your whole premise is mistaken. The above was not directed toward "life in Christ", but "eternal life", which, according to LDS theology, can only be obtained after the final judgement (post-mortem).
RevTestament Posted May 17, 2017 Posted May 17, 2017 3 minutes ago, FormerLDS said: The above was not directed toward "life in Christ", but "eternal life", which, according to LDS theology, can only be obtained after the final judgement (post-mortem). First there is not really a set LDS "theology." Second there is no Church doctrine which says eternal life can only be obtained after the final judgment. Third, Eternal life is to know Christ, the Tree of Life or at least the root thereof, since eternal life grows from Him. As with many people who leave the Church, you are making a mountain out of a molehill or nothing in particular. Every member of the Church who is repentant can know through their companion, the Holy Spirit, that they have Eternal Life. You just want to say it is not guaranteed, which it is not. They can fall. They can't decide to become a murderous pillager and break their covenants and still have life. Let's just not go to those silly arguments.... 2
blueglass Posted May 17, 2017 Posted May 17, 2017 On 12/13/2015 at 0:41 AM, stephenpurdy said: Many believe that justification comes by faith in Christ’s grace alone Remember Joseph Smith changed Romans 3:28 to match that definition exactly. JST Romans 3:27-28 says, "Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay, but by the law of faith. 28 Therefore, we conclude that a man is justified by faith alone without the deeds of the law." http://www.centerplace.org/hs/iv/iv-rom.htm#v3.28 This also matches Joseph's earliest doctrinal work Doctrine and Covenants section 20. In vs. 30 and 31, it states "30 And we know that justification through the grace of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ is just and true; 31 And we know also, that sanctification through the grace of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ is just and true, to all those who love and serve God with all their mights, minds, and strength." I think adding the Mark 12:30 commandment from the doctrine of love in the law is a good link to settling how salvation through grace is sufficient; 30 "And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment." As we love God he doeth the works within us, Colossians 1:29 "For this I toil, struggling with all his energy that he powerfully works within me." Then we can connect well the question of Luke 10 “what must I do to inherit eternal life?” with the answer of love by jesus or the Royal law and "law of the gospel" of James 2:17, "So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead." This could be written, "Faith without [love for your neighbor] is dead". 1 Corinthians 13:2 "if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing." As Luther said, "We are beggars, it is true". Thus we see the connection between Luther's Romans 3:28 change to "faith alone" which the JST was changed to match Luther, and the "are we not all beggars" of king benjamin in Mosiah 4, where he raises the same Luke 10 and James 2 questions about what true faith and love looks like. 1
Anakin7 Posted May 17, 2017 Posted May 17, 2017 (edited) On May 15, 2017 at 6:01 PM, coolrok7 said: Sorry to hear about your medical issues Anakin7. Glad to see you're doing better (or "we", whoever it applies to). I do have problems though with the in part quotes from the New testament time period, the first 100 years A.D. (from between 588 and 570 B.C. as stated in the BofM Intro to 2 Nephi 2). The term "free" of "salvation is free" has a note c in verse 4 which in a list of applicable verses refers to the term "grace" of Ephesians 2:8 in which it is listed as one of eighty Bible and BofM references provided I counted correctly: c TG Grace. Also when you get a chance, what model is reflected in Romans chapter 4? (more specifically 4:2). What is specifically being addressed in the thread was stated in the beginning by Halconero of which I disagree with his premise. What brought me into the discussion was when I responded to your post on page 3 of this thread concerning Sanctification (Your post dated 12/13/15). You had stated: I had responded in the next post after yours: On page 4 you then posted this Posted December 13, 2015 (edited)(not sure where this came from): In which I responded with (to which Sanctification is in reference to "remain Justified" is applicable I believe in my above comment): If one is not Justified by faith either in general or specific revelation of Romans 1&2, then Sanctification is not even relevant. A few brief moments in time again. Thank you coolrok7 my wife and I are better now and under control by The True Grace Of Christ Jesus. in response to your criticisms and polemics concerning LDS Salvation/Soteriology which is Christian/Biblical, I cannot add much more than what I have posted above which you either did not read or skimmed over. True LDS Doctrine/ Teaching/Thought/Practice/Walk/Run/Lifestyle is one of a True Grace empowered Covenant of Love, Belief, Faith, Endurance, Obedience to The person and work of Christ Jesus, by way of The New Covenant written in our Hearts, Grace for Grace, giving our life to Him as a gift and in return we receive Eternal Life from Him, which is an ancient middle eastern patron/client form/model, why we do labors of Love that are Grace empowered see - http://www.jefflindsay.com/faith_works.html . For covenants we do to Stay in True Grace [The Light] see - http://www.jefflindsay.com/covenants.shtml Other non LDS Christians would disagree with your analysis with your protestant/Lutheran interpretation - see my non LDS Brother In Christ Jesus materials that directly respond to your interpretation via Martin Luther and Lutheranism http://matt1618.freeyellow.com/commandments.html http://matt1618.freeyellow.com/ephesians2.html http://matt1618.freeyellow.com/merit.html . The ancient belief of the word believe/believing was directly connected to obedience - http://evangelicaloutreach.org/believingobeyingPDF.pdf . We keep The Law of Christ - Gal 6:2, and know that his commandments are not burdensome - 1 John 5:3. Your question regarding what I thought of the Form/Model of Romans 4:2 is answered by my non LDS Brother In Christ Jesus in one of his links above. I have also noticed that still you have not shown where Vance has corrected you in his posts above to be in error, maybe in the near future. Thank you for your time and concern for us, it is appreciated. May The True Grace of Christ Jesus be with you and those you love. The Atonement It Is The Central Doctrine Washing My Garment/Robe In The Blood Of The Lamb In His Eternal Debt/Grace Anakin7 Edited May 18, 2017 by Anakin7
Anakin7 Posted May 17, 2017 Posted May 17, 2017 18 minutes ago, blueglass said: Remember Joseph Smith changed Romans 3:28 to match that definition exactly. JST Romans 3:27-28 says, "Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay, but by the law of faith. 28 Therefore, we conclude that a man is justified by faith alone without the deeds of the law." http://www.centerplace.org/hs/iv/iv-rom.htm#v3.28 This also matches Joseph's earliest doctrinal work Doctrine and Covenants section 20. In vs. 30 and 31, it states "30 And we know that justification through the grace of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ is just and true; 31 And we know also, that sanctification through the grace of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ is just and true, to all those who love and serve God with all their mights, minds, and strength." I think adding the Mark 12:30 commandment from the doctrine of love in the law is a good link to settling how salvation through grace is sufficient; 30 "And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment." As we love God he doeth the works within us, Colossians 1:29 "For this I toil, struggling with all his energy that he powerfully works within me." Then we can connect well the question of Luke 10 “what must I do to inherit eternal life?” with the answer of love by jesus or the Royal law and "law of the gospel" of James 2:17, "So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead." This could be written, "Faith without [love for your neighbor] is dead". 1 Corinthians 13:2 "if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing." As Luther said, "We are beggars, it is true". Thus we see the connection between Luther's Romans 3:28 change to "faith alone" which the JST was changed to match Luther, and the "are we not all beggars" of king benjamin in Mosiah 4, where he raises the same Luke 10 and James 2 questions about what true faith and love looks like. I wonder if our Lutheran LDS critic coolrok7 will read this ? The Atonement It Is The Central Doctrine Washing My Garment/Robe In The Blood Of The Lamb In His Eternal Debt/Grace Anakin7 1
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