Notions of Grace, Works, the Law, and Faith in the New Testament

[Five Solas]

On 8/2/2016 at 0:27 PM, boblloyd91 said:

Of course you would never make strawmen out of what I or other LDS were saying  so I'm going to assume you didn't realize that I read the bible and can differentiate between the Mosaic law and the higher law as taught by Jesus (such as his statements on adultery etc.) In regards to reading Piper and Keller, reading their works doesn't equal agreement.

For someone who claims they were once Mormon and understands our faith you sure do say some funny things.....

I may be guilty of taking your bait ("Evangelicals are averse to the idea of being obedient") but I haven't made any strawman-type arguments, boblloyd91. 

You speak of "higher law" as though it ought to be obvious to me or anyone else familiar with LDS beliefs.  But I promise you that isn't the case.  And btw, if you enter "higher law" into the search box on lds.org--it generates a few references to the Sermon on the Mount but it doesn't bother (at least not in the top five non-video references) to explain why LDS disregard certain requirements in the Old Testament (e.g., the fabric law of Leviticus 19:19) but adhere to others (e.g., the Sabbath day observance law found in Exodus 20:8).  

So, how about a little less distraction & bald-faced assertion and a little more explanation?  I suspect a few other readers might appreciate it as well.

:0)

--Erik

[boblloyd91]

8 hours ago, Five Solas said:

I may be guilty of taking your bait ("Evangelicals are averse to the idea of being obedient") but I haven't made any strawman-type arguments, boblloyd91. 

You speak of "higher law" as though it ought to be obvious to me or anyone else familiar with LDS beliefs.  But I promise you that isn't the case.  And btw, if you enter "higher law" into the search box on lds.org--it generates a few references to the Sermon on the Mount but it doesn't bother (at least not in the top five non-video references) to explain why LDS disregard certain requirements in the Old Testament (e.g., the fabric law of Leviticus 19:19) but adhere to others (e.g., the Sabbath day observance law found in Exodus 20:8).  

So, how about a little less distraction & bald-faced assertion and a little more explanation?  I suspect a few other readers might appreciate it as well.

:0)

--Erik

Don't feel guilty about taking the bait, I'm a very good fisherman. To answer your request of explaining more I would be very happy to. If you recall I mentioned Jesus discussion on adultery and how even thinking about other women is akin to adultery. Jesus gave the higher law that focused on the spirit of the law rather than obeying the 600 plus laws you were using as an example. I believe in reading the bible that Christ fulfilled the mosaic law, but also set out expectations and requirements of how we ought to live before him, which involves doing his will (not being those that say Lord, Lord). I understand as a Calvinist you probably adhere to TULIP with total depravity making the above statement I made about obedience to Christ and giving our will to him seem like a "work". However you would do well to read the Eastern Orthodox perspective on Synergy with God to see this idea isn't confined to LDS. In fact there is the "New Perspective of Paul" that had Reformed folks up in arms years ago when it came out. As you like John Piper you could look up his theological feud with NT Wright a few years ago, where Wright had the audacity (in Piper's eyes) to consider Paul and the meaning of his letters from a first century Jewish perspective rather than John Calvin's 16th century theological innovations. My phone is almost dead so I'll stop there and write more soon!

[Anakin7]

        http://www.thepaulpage.com 

Washing My Robes In The Blood of The Lamb

The Atonement It Is The Central Doctrine

In His Eternal Debt/Grace

Anakin7

[Vance]

8 hours ago, Five Solas said:

You speak of "higher law" as though it ought to be obvious to me or anyone else familiar with LDS beliefs. 

:0)

--Erik

Heb 7:11 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?

  12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.

 

Christ, having a higher priesthood, gave the higher law.

 

 

[boblloyd91]

Okay I'm continuing. Like Vance was saying the law was changed, but that doesn't negate the importance of obedience. Not only is this found in the bible but also in the writings of the Early Church Fathers, where obedience is a part of salvation. Of course I'm in no way shape or form minimizing grace. I rely on it every day! However true faith involves obeying Jesus and doing his will, not merely saying "Lord, Lord". This isn't anything new, I would bet the Anti Mormons on this board have heard this before from us plenty of times. The burden of proof is on them (Coolrok7, FormerLDS, Five Solas) to prove to us that obedience is irrelevant to our salvation. Prove to us why we should not obey the commandments! Prove to us why obedience is irrelevant to our relationship with Christ! Because we believe in Christ we follow his commandments, and believe that it does have a part in our salvation, even though compared to his grace it is very minuscule. Nonetheless we are giving him our will, our trust and our faith by obeying him, which allows him to change us and make is in His image.

[boblloyd91]

9 hours ago, Five Solas said:

I may be guilty of taking your bait ("Evangelicals are averse to the idea of being obedient") but I haven't made any strawman-type arguments, boblloyd91. 

You speak of "higher law" as though it ought to be obvious to me or anyone else familiar with LDS beliefs.  But I promise you that isn't the case.  And btw, if you enter "higher law" into the search box on lds.org--it generates a few references to the Sermon on the Mount but it doesn't bother (at least not in the top five non-video references) to explain why LDS disregard certain requirements in the Old Testament (e.g., the fabric law of Leviticus 19:19) but adhere to others (e.g., the Sabbath day observance law found in Exodus 20:8).  

So, how about a little less distraction & bald-faced assertion and a little more explanation?  I suspect a few other readers might appreciate it as well.

:0)

--Erik

By the way, I feel it would be beneficial if you told us from your perspective how obedience/salvation intersect. If I missed it in an earlier posting on your part please point it out to me 

[Five Solas]

55 minutes ago, boblloyd91 said:

Don't feel guilty about taking the bait, I'm a very good fisherman. To answer your request of explaining more I would be very happy to. If you recall I mentioned Jesus discussion on adultery and how even thinking about other women is akin to adultery. Jesus gave the higher law that focused on the spirit of the law rather than obeying the 600 plus laws you were using as an example. I believe in reading the bible that Christ fulfilled the mosaic law, but also set out expectations and requirements of how we ought to live before him, which involves doing his will (not being those that say Lord, Lord). I understand as a Calvinist you probably adhere to TULIP with total depravity making the above statement I made about obedience to Christ and giving our will to him seem like a "work". However you would do well to read the Eastern Orthodox perspective on Synergy with God to see this idea isn't confined to LDS. In fact there is the "New Perspective of Paul" that had Reformed folks up in arms years ago when it came out. As you like John Piper you could look up his theological feud with NT Wright a few years ago, where Wright had the audacity (in Piper's eyes) to consider Paul and the meaning of his letters from a first century Jewish perspective rather than John Calvin's 16th century theological innovations. My phone is almost dead so I'll stop there and write more soon!

You actually don't know, do you?  You thought you could just type "higher law" and it would be an obvious & satisfactory resolution to the question.  And now you see your error and so you're typing about TULIP and "New Perspective" and "theological innovations"--all in apparent hope your reader will forget the question you can't answer and focus on something (anything!) else.

What do you think this is, boblloyd91, a political debate?

;0)

How about you use the verses I gave you and kindly give it one more try: Why do LDS disregard certain requirements in the Old Testament (e.g., the fabric law of Leviticus 19:19) but adhere to others (e.g., the Sabbath day observance law of Exodus 20:8)?  And please note a Sabbath day observance admonition wasn't made in the Sermon on the Mount--so appealing to Matthew chapters 5 - 7 isn't likely to be of much help here.    

Why is this important?  It's important because you charged: "Evangelicals are averse to the idea of being obedient."  So if you don't have a crisp, clear answer why LDS disregard/disobey Biblical requirements, then that exposes you to a charge: Hypocrisy. 

Make sense?

--Erik

[boblloyd91]

4 hours ago, Five Solas said:

You actually don't know, do you?  You thought you could just type "higher law" and it would be an obvious & satisfactory resolution to the question.  And now you see your error and so you're typing about TULIP and "New Perspective" and "theological innovations"--all in apparent hope your reader will forget the question you can't answer and focus on something (anything!) else.

What do you think this is, boblloyd91, a political debate?

;0)

How about you use the verses I gave you and kindly give it one more try: Why do LDS disregard certain requirements in the Old Testament (e.g., the fabric law of Leviticus 19:19) but adhere to others (e.g., the Sabbath day observance law of Exodus 20:8)?  And please note a Sabbath day observance admonition wasn't made in the Sermon on the Mount--so appealing to Matthew chapters 5 - 7 isn't likely to be of much help here.    

Why is this important?  It's important because you charged: "Evangelicals are averse to the idea of being obedient."  So if you don't have a crisp, clear answer why LDS disregard/disobey Biblical requirements, then that exposes you to a charge: Hypocrisy. 

Make sense?

--Erik

Deleted....sent you a PM. I feel we are talking past each other and it's getting more and more heated

Edited August 4, 2016 by boblloyd91

[Anakin7]

Hebrews 5:9.

Washing My Robes In The Blood Of The Lamb

The Atonement It Is The Central Doctrine

In His Debt/Grace

Anakin7

 

[sam]

Interesting

[coolrok7]

The terms used in the verses you quoted Vance, such as “DO. . .OBEY”, “keep the commandments”, “patient continuance in well doing”, “but the righteous into life eternal”, etc., are all the result of the Holy Spirit indwelling the believer.

 

The “lust of the flesh” the opposite of “Walk in the spirit”, are contrasted here with “the fruit of the Spirit”:

 

¹⁶ This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. ¹⁷ For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. ¹⁸ But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law. ¹⁹ Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, ²⁰ idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, ²¹ envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. ²² But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, ²³ meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. ²⁴ And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. ²⁵ If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. ²⁶ Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another. (Galatians 5:16-26)

 

Discerning of spirits (a gift of the Spirit) is a by-product of what it means to walk in the spirit:

 

But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal. ⁸ For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit; ⁹ To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit; ¹⁰ To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues: ¹¹ But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will. (1 Corinthians 12:7-11)

 

Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world. . . .They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them. We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error. (1 John 4:1, 5-6)

 

But solid food is for the mature, who because of practice have their senses exercised to discern good and evil. (Hebrews 5:14)

 

The Holy Spirit is active in the causation of bringing about these results of faith to the believer, none of which contradict what I actually believe (not what it is represented as by Mormonism/some of those here on this discussion board).

 

Back from a vacation, other things.

[Anakin7]

Welcome back and thanks be To God for your safe return. Showing us the errors of our ways again, thank you for caring. Romans 8:13, Galatians 6:8-9 come to mind in regards to your love polemic.

The Atonement It Is The Central Doctrine

Washing my Robe/Garment

In His Eternal Debt/ Grace

Anakin7    

Edited August 26, 2016 by Anakin7

[Vance]

23 hours ago, coolrok7 said:

The terms used in the verses you quoted Vance, such as “DO. . .OBEY”, “keep the commandments”, “patient continuance in well doing”, “but the righteous into life eternal”, etc., are all the result of the Holy Spirit indwelling the believer.

 

The “lust of the flesh” the opposite of “Walk in the spirit”, are contrasted here with “the fruit of the Spirit”:

 

Nah, if that was the case then Jesus would not have responded with "Thou knowest the commandments" to the question "what shall I do to inherit eternal life?"

Also, according to the Bible, the spirit is given to the obedient.

Acts 5:32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

So, according to the Bible, you have it backwards.  Obedience first, then reception of the Spirit.

 

[Vance]

 Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Here again, Peter teaches obedience first, then reception of the Spirit.

 

PS To repent, one must change from disobedience to obedience.

 

Edited August 28, 2016 by Vance

[Vance]

John 20:21 Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you.

  22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:

 

Here Jesus gives the Spirit to his obedient disciples.

 

Obedience first, then the Spirit.

[Vance]

 Acts 9:6 And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do.

Saul/Paul is told what he MUST DO.

 

 

Acts 9:8 And Saul arose from the earth; and when his eyes were opened, he saw no man: but they led him by the hand, and brought him into Damascus.

 

Saul/Paul obeys.

 

Acts 9:17 And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost.

 

Again, obedience first, then the Spirit.

[Anakin7]

       Yes Vance Biblical Repentance ! - http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/repentance.htm 

The Atonement It Is The Central Doctrine

Washing my Garments/Robes

In His Eternal Debt/Grace

Anakin7

[coolrok7]

Anakin7, I responded to a post of yours on p. 3 of this thread dtd. Dec. 13, 2015. I responded with:

 

Or in another word, “Sanctification”

.

 

In the opening thread question, halcerno in part makes this point:

 

On ‎12‎/‎9‎/‎2015 at 8:26 PM, halconero said:

Such notions were translated properly into the King James Version of the Bible, which predated the rise of Cartesian though and Enlightenment rationality. The connotations regarding faith and belief were accurately reflected in the scripture. Human interpretation thereof became muddled by the rise of empirical agnosticism combined with a premium on human thought. Faith and belief this became more associated with concepts of intellectual assent and agreement, and when combined with Protestant beliefs regarding the salvatory nature of Faith resulted in the common notion the a declaration of belief in Jesus as the Son of God was sufficient for salvation. This notion is incorrect and contrary to scripture.

 

I responded in this way due to Anakin7 asking if I was going to respond to halcerno’s “scriptural postings”:

 

coolrok7 when will you respond to halcerno scriptural postings that show LDS True Salvation/Soteriological Doctrine Teaching Practice to be Christian and Biblical ?. . .Anakin7 (p.4, Dec 14, 2015))

 

Two posts later I responded with this two part question:

 

[quote]Anakin7, do you agree with your church's teaching concerning eternal progression and is it the result of grace or works (merit, earning it)?

 

I then stated in response to halcerno's statement concerning Protestant beliefs as a “common notion” is being, “incorrect and contrary to scripture”

 

I believe, as I will explain not a notion but the Biblical teaching

 

This is what I'm doing, responding to what I believe is true as your polemics state is not Biblical, false or not true.

 

 

:

[Anakin7]

True Grace [charis] accepted, accessed, activated, grabbed hold of, received, obtained, held on to by way of True Faith [pistis] as held in the Hearts and Minds of The True Ancient Biblical Prophets/Apostles/Saints/Christians = Allegiance, Commitment, Confidence, Dedication, Devotion, Faithfulness , Fidelity, Loyalty,Obedience, Trust to the person and work of The Lord of Life, Lord, Redeemer, Savior, God King, Master Christ Jesus = True LDS Doctrine Teaching Thought Practice Walk Run Experience = Biblical and Christian.

The Atonement It Is The Central Doctrine 

In His Debt/Grace

Washing My Robes/Garments

Anakin7

Edited August 28, 2016 by Anakin7

[Anakin7]

         Many a protestant declare but no fruit produced which also applies to all including LDS. coolrok 7 Please do not ignore Vance posts above.

The Atonement It Is The Central Doctrine

Washing My Robes Garments

In His Eternal Debt/Grace

Anakin7

 

Edited August 28, 2016 by Anakin7

[coolrok7]

Then they don't have faith because good works are produced when faith has come.

[Vance]

5 hours ago, coolrok7 said:

Then they don't have faith because good works are produced when faith has come.

There you go, trying to separate the inseparable.  Faith doesn't come before works.  Faith and works come together.  Faith (or to be accurate, so called "faith") without works is dead.  Living faith is demonstrated by works, not by the "works" of the law of Moses, but righteous works. 

Rom. 3:27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.

Rom. 9:32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;

Gal. 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

James 2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

  15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,

  16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?

  17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

  18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

  19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

  20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

  21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

  22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

  23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

  24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

  25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?

  26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

[Vance]

On 8/25/2016 at 8:58 PM, Anakin7 said:

       Yes Vance Biblical Repentance ! - http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/repentance.htm 

The Atonement It Is The Central Doctrine

Washing my Garments/Robes

In His Eternal Debt/Grace

Anakin7

Some Evangelicals get it.  Others seem to lose it when they are talking to Mormons.

[Vance]

On 8/24/2016 at 7:25 PM, coolrok7 said:

The terms used in the verses you quoted Vance, such as “DO. . .OBEY”, “keep the commandments”, “patient continuance in well doing”, “but the righteous into life eternal”, etc., are all the result of the Holy Spirit indwelling the believer.

 

The “lust of the flesh” the opposite of “Walk in the spirit”, are contrasted here with “the fruit of the Spirit”:

 

 

 

 

Discerning of spirits (a gift of the Spirit) is a by-product of what it means to walk in the spirit:

 

 

 

What you demonstrate with this response is that you have no response.  This, as I have shown, doesn't address the issue.  It is just a vapid and vacuous response.  And it reveals the fact that you DON'T have a legitimate response.

[Anakin7]

1 hour ago, Vance said:

Some Evangelicals get it.  Others seem to lose it when they are talking to Mormons.

That is True Vance.

The Atonement It Is The Central Doctrine

Washing My Garment/Robe

In His Eternal Debt/Grace

Anakin7