FormerLDS Posted August 1, 2016 Posted August 1, 2016 On 7/29/2016 at 8:20 PM, boblloyd91 said: I know right? He obviously believed in Christ. I was reading 1 John the other day and it's very clear the repentance of sin is not a one time event, but rather something that we need to do on a regular basis. Most of our critics adhere to once saved always saved, a theological innovation of John Calvin. Did the rejected of the savior in Matthew 7 not believe in Jesus Christ? They cast out devils in the name of Jesus Christ. They prophesied and performed miraculous works in the name of Jesus Christ. Yet the savoir said to them "depart from me ye workers of iniquity, I know you not." Like the rich man, their faith ultimately was in their own worthy behavior. The rich man did not have the gift of eternal life (hence the reason why he what he must do to earn it. Eternal life is not a reward, it can only be received as a free gift.
FormerLDS Posted August 1, 2016 Posted August 1, 2016 On 7/30/2016 at 9:08 AM, Vance said: Well, thank you for telling me what I don't believe. And yet THAT is exactly what evangelicals do. They clam they have eternal life while here in mortality. Not only do I claim to have eternal life, but more importantly, Jesus Christ says I have eternal life: "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life." John 6:47
Okrahomer Posted August 1, 2016 Posted August 1, 2016 (edited) 38 minutes ago, FormerLDS said: Not only do I claim to have eternal life, but more importantly, Jesus Christ says I have eternal life: "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life." John 6:47 "Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?" James 2:19-20 " Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven; And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity." Matthew 7:21;23 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it." Matthew 7:26 Edited August 1, 2016 by Okrahomer 1
Vance Posted August 2, 2016 Posted August 2, 2016 (edited) Here we go again, quote a verse of scripture and then claim something that is unrelated. 5 hours ago, FormerLDS said: Did the rejected of the savior in Matthew 7 not believe in Jesus Christ? They cast out devils in the name of Jesus Christ. They prophesied and performed miraculous works in the name of Jesus Christ. Yet the savoir said to them "depart from me ye workers of iniquity, I know you not." Like the rich man, their faith ultimately was in their own worthy behavior. The rich man did not have the gift of eternal life (hence the reason why he what he must do to earn it. Eternal life is not a reward, it can only be received as a free gift. It had NOTHING to do with "their faith ultimately was in their own worthy behavior" because their behavior was not worthy but iniquitous. 1 John 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. 8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. You continue to operate under a definition of grace that is demonstrably false. Eternal life IS a reward or a gift, and it is free in that it is freely available to those that are willing to demonstrate their faith in Christ by obedience to him. 7 And, if you keep my commandments and endure to the end you shall have eternal life, which gift is the greatest of all the gifts of God. Edited August 2, 2016 by Vance
Vance Posted August 2, 2016 Posted August 2, 2016 3 hours ago, FormerLDS said: Not only do I claim to have eternal life, but more importantly, Jesus Christ says I have eternal life: "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life." John 6:47 To truly believe "on" Christ you must believe what he taught, not your misinterpretation of Paul. Jesus taught, John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. You are free to ignore the teachings of Jesus, but you do so at your own peril. 1
Calm Posted August 2, 2016 Posted August 2, 2016 4 hours ago, FormerLDS said: Was his faith in Jesus Christ or his riches? You stated Jesus gave freely to those who asked for salvation. You did not put any condition upon the asking...which makes it conditional giving, not free. 1
Calm Posted August 2, 2016 Posted August 2, 2016 4 hours ago, FormerLDS said: Did the rejected of the savior in Matthew 7 not believe in Jesus Christ? They cast out devils in the name of Jesus Christ. They prophesied and performed miraculous works in the name of Jesus Christ. Yet the savoir said to them "depart from me ye workers of iniquity, I know you not." Like the rich man, their faith ultimately was in their own worthy behavior. The rich man did not have the gift of eternal life (hence the reason why he what he must do to earn it. Eternal life is not a reward, it can only be received as a free gift. Wait, how can it be a free gift if there is a condition attached (having the right kind of faith in the right thing) ?
Vance Posted August 2, 2016 Posted August 2, 2016 4 hours ago, FormerLDS said: Was his faith in Jesus Christ or his riches? His faith was not in Christ, therefore, it doesn't matter what his faith was in what mattered was his unwillingness to OBEY the commandment Jesus gave him. He asked a very direct and specific question. Luke 18:18 And a certain ruler asked him, saying, Good Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? 19 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is, God. 20 Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother. . . . Notice that Jesus didn't say "do nothing, just sit back and accept the unmerited grace that I give to the totally indolent". 21 And he said, All these have I kept from my youth up. 22 Now when Jesus heard these things, he said unto him, Yet lackest thou one thing: sell all that thou hast, and distribute unto the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me. He had to DO one more thing. He had to OBEY one more commandment.
boblloyd91 Posted August 2, 2016 Posted August 2, 2016 5 hours ago, FormerLDS said: Did the rejected of the savior in Matthew 7 not believe in Jesus Christ? They cast out devils in the name of Jesus Christ. They prophesied and performed miraculous works in the name of Jesus Christ. Yet the savoir said to them "depart from me ye workers of iniquity, I know you not." Like the rich man, their faith ultimately was in their own worthy behavior. The rich man did not have the gift of eternal life (hence the reason why he what he must do to earn it. Eternal life is not a reward, it can only be received as a free gift. It is a gift, and every Latter Day Saint on this board believes that it is Christ's grace that saves us, something you seem to struggle to understand. It is because we believe Christ and have a testimony of him that we follow the commandments he has given us as found throughout the scriptures, such as the sermon on the mount. I don't get why so many Evangelicals are averse to the idea of being obedient to the commandments....
Vance Posted August 2, 2016 Posted August 2, 2016 5 hours ago, FormerLDS said: Eternal life is not a reward, it can only be received as a free gift. Heb 10:34 For ye had compassion of me in my bonds, and took joyfully the spoiling of your goods, knowing in yourselves that ye have in heaven a better and an enduring substance. 35 Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great recompence of reward. 36 For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise. Sounds like eternal life is a reward to me. 2 John 1:6 And this is love, that we walk after his commandments. This is the commandment, That, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it. 7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist. 8 Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward. Sounds like eternal life is a reward to me. Rev 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. 13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. 14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. Sounds like eternal life is a reward to me.
dberrie2000 Posted August 2, 2016 Posted August 2, 2016 (edited) On 12/10/2015 at 2:16 AM, saemo said: FormerLDS can correct me if I'm speaking out of turn here, but where you say "no place in salvation", I think the actual argument is "no place in justification". Protestants view justification as a singular event. That singular event being, when faith in Jesus Christ is professed. Catholics view that event as "initial justification", which occurs at baptism, and begins a lifelong process of growing in righteousness (Sanctification). Justification and Sanctification, are for Catholics and Mormons, essentially the same thing. Justification is a process, rather than a one-time event. Justification and Sanctification is that process. For Protestants, Justification is the one time event, and Sanctification is separate from Justification. I think Catholics and Protestants can agree that justification is defined as a "translation from that state in which man is born a child of the first Adam, to the state of grace and of the adoption of the sons of God through the second Adam, Jesus Christ, our Savior." (Council of Trent) I don't know if LDS agree with this definition, so perhaps defining what Justification is and is not, in LDS belief, would be a good starting point. "Justification" can be used in different ways, as the NT shows: Romans 5:18King James Version (KJV) 18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. IOW--all were justified of life through the Atonement--a free gift to all men--as an absolvment of the condemnation brought to all men due to the Fall. Now, all men have the opportunity to inherit eternal life. Edited August 2, 2016 by dberrie2000
Anakin7 Posted August 2, 2016 Posted August 2, 2016 (edited) For Former - http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/destiny.htm Washing My Robes The Atonement It Is The Central Doctrine In His Eternal Debt/Grace Anakin7 Edited August 2, 2016 by Anakin7
Five Solas Posted August 2, 2016 Posted August 2, 2016 10 hours ago, boblloyd91 said: I don't get why so many Evangelicals are averse to the idea of being obedient to the commandments.... There are over 600 commandments just in the first five books of your Bible, boblloyd91. How are they working out for you? That polyester cotton blend t-shirt you like so much (you know, the one that says "Ponderize" in bold print on the front). D'oh! Leviticus 19:19 "...nor shall you wear a garment of cloth made of two kinds of material." So how about it, what's your excuse? ;0) --Erik PS. For a guy who claims to have read Keller and Piper, you sure do say some funny things...
Anakin7 Posted August 2, 2016 Posted August 2, 2016 True LDS Doctrine Teaching Thought Practice do not adhere to O.T Covenant Salvation Soteriology but New N.T Covenant Salvation Soteriology. Washing My Robes In The Blood Of The lamb The Atonement it Is The Central Doctrine In His Eternal Debt/Grace Anakin7
Five Solas Posted August 2, 2016 Posted August 2, 2016 1 minute ago, Anakin7 said: True LDS Doctrine Teaching Thought Practice do not adhere to O.T Covenant Salvation Soteriology but New N.T Covenant Salvation Soteriology. Or to use less fancy terms & borrow a few words from boblloyd91 that he previously applied to Evangelical Christians, LDS are "adverse to the idea of being obedient to the commandments"--in the first 39 books of their Bible. And as for those remaining 27... ;0) Thanks, Anakin7 --Erik
Anakin7 Posted August 2, 2016 Posted August 2, 2016 (edited) Did Jesus Intend for us to Keep his commandments to be/stay Saved into The Kingdom of Heaven ? Washing My Robes In The Blood Of The Lamb The Atonement, It Is The Central Doctrine In His Eternal Debt/Grace Anakin Edited August 2, 2016 by Anakin7
boblloyd91 Posted August 2, 2016 Posted August 2, 2016 (edited) 5 hours ago, Five Solas said: There are over 600 commandments just in the first five books of your Bible, boblloyd91. How are they working out for you? That polyester cotton blend t-shirt you like so much (you know, the one that says "Ponderize" in bold print on the front). D'oh! Leviticus 19:19 "...nor shall you wear a garment of cloth made of two kinds of material." So how about it, what's your excuse? ;0) --Erik PS. For a guy who claims to have read Keller and Piper, you sure do say some funny things... Of course you would never make strawmen out of what I or other LDS were saying so I'm going to assume you didn't realize that I read the bible and can differentiate between the Mosaic law and the higher law as taught by Jesus (such as his statements on adultery etc.) In regards to reading Piper and Keller, reading their works doesn't equal agreement. For someone who claims they were once Mormon and understands our faith you sure do say some funny things..... Edited August 2, 2016 by boblloyd91 2
boblloyd91 Posted August 2, 2016 Posted August 2, 2016 5 hours ago, Anakin7 said: True LDS Doctrine Teaching Thought Practice do not adhere to O.T Covenant Salvation Soteriology but New N.T Covenant Salvation Soteriology. Washing My Robes In The Blood Of The lamb The Atonement it Is The Central Doctrine In His Eternal Debt/Grace Anakin7 I already stated this above but it bears repeating that the critics who are attacking us right now are using a strawman which I bet they know is false, they just like to throw barbs at those of us who believe following the commandments is important
Anakin7 Posted August 2, 2016 Posted August 2, 2016 One must endure to the end [Matt 24:13] to be Saved by way of True Grace by way of True Faith - http://bibleprophesy.org/endureend.htm Washing My Robes In The Blood Of The Lamb The Atonement It Is The Central Doctrine InHis Debt/Grace Anakin7
Anakin7 Posted August 2, 2016 Posted August 2, 2016 Do not Be Deceived http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/kingdom.htm Believing on Jesus is the same s obeying Jesus http://evangelicaloutreach.org/believing.htm Washing My Robes In The Blood Of The Lamb The Atonement It Is The Central Doctrine In His Eternal Debt/Grace Anakin7
dberrie2000 Posted August 2, 2016 Posted August 2, 2016 6 hours ago, Anakin7 said: Did Jesus Intend for us to Keep his commandments to be/stay Saved into The Kingdom of Heaven ? Matthew 19:16-19---King James Version (KJV) 16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? 17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. 18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, 19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Anakin7 Posted August 2, 2016 Posted August 2, 2016 (edited) Thanks dberrie2000 let me add to your Matthew 19:16-19 reference - http://www.scrollpublishing.com/store/Did-Jesus-Intend.html . Washing My Robes in the Blood of the Lamb The Atonement It Is The Central Doctrine In His Eternal Debt/Grace Anakin7 Edited August 2, 2016 by Anakin7
dberrie2000 Posted August 3, 2016 Posted August 3, 2016 20 hours ago, Anakin7 said: Thanks dberrie2000 let me add to your Matthew 19:16-19 reference - http://www.scrollpublishing.com/store/Did-Jesus-Intend.html . Washing My Robes in the Blood of the Lamb The Atonement It Is The Central Doctrine In His Eternal Debt/Grace Anakin7 Hi Anakin--back to ya: Revelation 22:14---King James Version (KJV) 14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
dberrie2000 Posted August 3, 2016 Posted August 3, 2016 On 7/28/2016 at 4:27 PM, FormerLDS said: Hello friends,Regardless, for all of us, "eternal life" will either be a free gift given today by Jesus Christ or it will the reward of worthy behavior only be obtained "after the final judgement". The Savior testified all will be judged according to their works--and that for life or damnation: John 5:28-29---King James Version (KJV) 28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
Vance Posted August 4, 2016 Posted August 4, 2016 On 8/2/2016 at 7:58 AM, Five Solas said: There are over 600 commandments just in the first five books of your Bible, boblloyd91. How are they working out for you? That polyester cotton blend t-shirt you like so much (you know, the one that says "Ponderize" in bold print on the front). D'oh! Leviticus 19:19 "...nor shall you wear a garment of cloth made of two kinds of material." So how about it, what's your excuse? ;0) --Erik PS. For a guy who claims to have read Keller and Piper, you sure do say some funny things... And what did Jesus say about commandments? How many commandments did He mention? Ponderize this, 36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law? 37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets. 1
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