Anakin7 Posted August 28, 2016 Posted August 28, 2016 (edited) Vance and my other LDS Saints we all Stand All Amazed at Jesus and His Awesome Sacrifice for us in contrast to coolrok7 and other LDS critics who state and howl at us that we are performing a self working righteousness to save ourselves - http://www.14lds.com/amazed.htm The Atonement It Is The Central Doctrine Washing My Garment/Robe In His Eternal Debt/Grace Anakin7 Edited August 28, 2016 by Anakin7
coolrok7 Posted September 5, 2016 Posted September 5, 2016 Vance, your quoting the verses you do only proves to me that you don't really want to understand what I actually believe and keep putting words in my mouth that I don't say/believe. Anakin7, not howling but having a discussion.
coolrok7 Posted September 5, 2016 Posted September 5, 2016 In Luther's small catechism he states concerning the Apostles creed: The Third Article. Of Sanctification. I believe in the Holy Ghost; one holy Christian Church, the communion of saints; the forgiveness of sins; the resurrection of the body; and the life everlasting. Amen. What does this mean?--Answer. I believe that I cannot by my own reason or strength believe in Jesus Christ, my Lord, or come to Him; but the Holy Ghost has called me by the Gospel, enlightened me with His gifts, sanctified and kept me in the true faith; even as He calls, gathers, enlightens, and sanctifies the whole Christian Church on earth, and keeps it with Jesus Christ in the one true faith; in which Christian Church He forgives daily and richly all sins to me and all believers, and at the last day will raise up me and all the dead, and will give to me and to all believers in Christ everlasting life. This is most certainly true.
Anakin7 Posted September 5, 2016 Posted September 5, 2016 (edited) 10 hours ago, coolrok7 said: Vance, your quoting the verses you do only proves to me that you don't really want to understand what I actually believe and keep putting words in my mouth that I don't say/believe. Anakin7, not howling but having a discussion. coolrok7 yes you have a discussion but howl at us in the discussion that we LDS are wrong in your polemics against us. You disagree with my link above ?. The Atonement It Is The Central Doctrine Washing My Garment/Robe In The Blood Of The Lamb In His Eternal Debt/Grace Anakin7 Edited September 5, 2016 by Anakin7
Vance Posted September 5, 2016 Posted September 5, 2016 19 hours ago, coolrok7 said: Vance, your quoting the verses you do only proves to me that you don't really want to understand what I actually believe and keep putting words in my mouth that I don't say/believe. This coming from someone who constantly is misrepresenting what we believe. Who doesn't change his misrepresentation even after he has been corrected.
coolrok7 Posted September 11, 2016 Posted September 11, 2016 (edited) A few examples where I have done this? Edited September 11, 2016 by coolrok7 puncuation
Anakin7 Posted September 12, 2016 Posted September 12, 2016 coolrok I will let Vance reply to your inquiry but do/have you not consistently come/came into our LDS Kingdom Mansion home and told/ painted/portrayed us endlessly of our Pharisee/Sadducee/Scribe/Zealot Chest pounding Self Righteousness that we perform in the eyes of men that we do so as we earn the right to enter Heaven ?. Are we not on the road to hell for this [And other Doctrines as well ?] as you communicate to us. Just an observation. Please check your front,back door,windows to those who disagree with your form/model of salvation in your House of Lutheranism. I invite you again to receive The True Grace [charis] of Jesus Christ by way of True Faith [pistis]. The Atonement It Is The Central Doctrine Washing My Robe/Garment In His Eternal Debt/Grace Anakin7
Vance Posted September 13, 2016 Posted September 13, 2016 (edited) Quote function not working properly colrok said, what Jesus accomplished on the cross, for our Justification (which is what Mormonism does in, "after all we can do" Joseph Smith's addition to "by grace are we saved. . .not of works"). The Mormon teaching of: Quote By revelation, our Savior made known again the plan of salvation and exaltation. Resurrection comes as a gift to every man through Jesus Christ, but the reward of the highest eternal opportunities you must earn. It is not just enough to believe in Jesus Christ. You must work and learn, search and pray, repent and improve, know his laws and live them. (YOUR PRE-EARTH LIFE pamphlet, p.10) Thus, brothers and sisters, along with the great and free gift of the universal and personal resurrection there is also the personal possibility of meriting eternal life. (The Ensign, Elder Neal A. Maxwell, 1997, p.23) Is not consistent with Biblical teaching on the matter of appealing to law to be Justified which is by faith: Here is an example found on page 4 of this thread. LDS teaching IS consistent with Paul's teachings on faith and grace. The how and why have been explained to you several times, including in this thread. YET!!! You continue to misrepresent our teachings. Edited September 13, 2016 by Vance
Vance Posted September 13, 2016 Posted September 13, 2016 Colrok said, Anakin7, do you agree with your church's teaching concerning eternal progression and is it the result of grace or works (merit, earning it)? The problem has been explained to you. Your definition of grace is false.
Vance Posted September 13, 2016 Posted September 13, 2016 colrok said, So you are saying grace is cheap, the shed blood of Jesus? This is a misrepresentation of what was posted.
Vance Posted September 13, 2016 Posted September 13, 2016 Colrok said, His righteousness is given to us through faith. This is NO WHERE found in scripture. You accuse us of adding or taking away from scripture, yet, here you are adding to scripture.
Vance Posted September 13, 2016 Posted September 13, 2016 Colrok said, Anakin7, or obedience to Joseph Smith. . . We don't teach obedience to Joseph Smith. This is a gross misrepresentation.
Vance Posted September 13, 2016 Posted September 13, 2016 Colrok said, I've provided the context for my statements in defense of the Biblical positions I hold to and the unbiblical position Mormons hold to. What you have done is quote scripture that you INTERPRET to hold the same position you do, and that you INTERPRET to hold different positions from Mormons. The problem is your INTERPRETATION not with what the Bible teaches compared to what we teach.
Vance Posted September 13, 2016 Posted September 13, 2016 Colrok said, Mormons have their own laws and ordinances (in place of the Mosaic Law), Another misrepresentation.
Vance Posted September 13, 2016 Posted September 13, 2016 Colrok said, The Biblical gift of eternal life is gained as a promise of God through faith or belief in God. If you really have faith in God you will obey him. So, clearly, eternal life IS A GIFT given to the obedient. So, by being obedient to God, according to HIS PROMISE we will receive eternal life. So, in a way, we merit the promise of eternal life by being obedient. That is what you are claiming with your statement and that is what we believe. So, WHAT IS YOUR PROBLEM?????
coolrok7 Posted October 1, 2016 Posted October 1, 2016 (edited) Vance, would you agree that to have faith or to believe are synonymous? Quote I was handed a tract the other day. It was written by a critic, an enemy of the Church whose desire is to undermine the faith of the weak and the unknowing. It repeats fallacies that have been parroted for a century and more. It purports to set forth what you and I, as members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, believe. (The Ensign, President Gordon B. Hinckley, Nov. 1986, p.49) Edited October 1, 2016 by coolrok7 add a quote
Vance Posted October 2, 2016 Posted October 2, 2016 On 10/1/2016 at 10:14 AM, coolrok7 said: Vance, would you agree that to have faith or to believe are synonymous? They can be, but are not necessarily so. As you should know, there is usually more than one definition of a word and which definition to use, sometimes can be determined by the context of its usage. For example, the word "believe" can mean different things depending on the context. Is "believe" synonymous with having faith in this context? James 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. Do the devils also "have faith"?
coolrok7 Posted October 5, 2016 Posted October 5, 2016 Thanks Vance. I can agree with your statement concerning the definition of a word, especially in context (some being more obvious than others on the surface). The example of fallen angels in the given context is not to the state of having belief or faith to salvation but the certain knowledge of knowing their ultimate state of an eternal punishment in hell as Jesus stated in Matthew chapters 10, 25: Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. (James 2:19) And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. (Matthew 10:28) 41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: (Matthew 25:41) As I used the terms faith/believe (without stating so), it is in the context of having salvation as the result.
Anakin7 Posted October 5, 2016 Posted October 5, 2016 Also the fallen angels did/do not obey Jesus which is within the ancient semitic meaning of Belief/Faith - http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/believing.htm . The Atonement It Is The Central Doctrine Washing My Garment/Robes In The Blood Of The Lamb In His Eternal Debt/Grace Anakin7 1
coolrok7 Posted October 8, 2016 Posted October 8, 2016 So the next question then is in the context of how President Hinckley used the term "believe". Can I assume correctly it is used in the correct context for what it is Mormons actually "believe" as opposed to what it is purported to be by this critic/enemy of the Church?
mfbukowski Posted October 8, 2016 Posted October 8, 2016 On 10/1/2016 at 10:14 AM, coolrok7 said: Vance, would you agree that to have faith or to believe are synonymous? I believe the sun will rise tomorrow, but I cannot say that belief is based on faith. Language is inherently ambiguous and arguments which hang on semantic interpretations (virtually all arguments in religion) are bound to be pointless. 1
Vance Posted October 10, 2016 Posted October 10, 2016 On 10/8/2016 at 8:23 AM, coolrok7 said: So the next question then is in the context of how President Hinckley used the term "believe". Can I assume correctly it is used in the correct context for what it is Mormons actually "believe" as opposed to what it is purported to be by this critic/enemy of the Church? It repeats fallacies that have been parroted for a century and more. It purports to set forth what you and I, as members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, believe. From the context it is very clear that he is talking about a false or mis representation about what LDS believe. That is a rather common practice of critics and enemies of the Church. Something that even you have engaged in.
coolrok7 Posted November 12, 2016 Posted November 12, 2016 (edited) Quote THE DIVINE MISSION OF JOSEPH SMITH CHURCH STANDS OR FALLS WITH JOSEPH SMITH. Mormonism, as it is called, must stand or fall on the story of Joseph Smith. He was either a prophet of God, divinely called, properly appointed and commissioned, or he was one of the biggest frauds this world has ever seen. There is no middle ground. If Joseph Smith was a deceiver, who willfully attempted to mislead the people, then he should be exposed; his claims should be refuted, and his doctrines shown to be false, for the doctrines of an imposter cannot be made to harmonize in all particulars with divine truth. If his claims and declarations were built upon fraud and deceit, there would appear many errors and contradictions, which would be easy to detect. The doctrines of false teachers will not stand the test when tried by the accepted standards of measurement, the scriptures. (Doctrines of Salvation, Joseph Fielding Smith, p.188, 1954 edition) The Mormon argument is: Quote We appeal to the Bible to prove. . .truths received through the restoration. . .are in accord with its teachings. (A Marvelous Work and a Wonder, LeGrand Richards, p.1) In fact, the New Testament contains. . .teachings. . .of. . .the Man of Galilee. This book, therefore will be our standard of judgment or the norm by which we measure the Gospel truths of all the dispensations. (The Gospel Through The Ages, Milton R. Hunter, p.91) In light of the above, the opening false premise of this thread: Quote . . .Protestant beliefs regarding the salvatory nature of Faith resulted in the common notion the a declaration of belief in Jesus as the Son of God was sufficient for salvation. This notion is incorrect and contrary to scripture. . . “Protestant beliefs” are but not notions are actually based on Scriptural teaching. Our personal or individual salvation is appropriated through faith, being saved by the grace of God. This is what is taught in Biblical Scripture. Here in Ephesians 2:8-10 it states: Quote For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. As a Christian (Protestant, Lutheran of the Missouri Synod tribe), three of the five Solas argued by Luther, Sola Fide (Faith alone), Sola Gratia (Grace alone), and Sola Scriptura (Scripture alone) from Ephesians 2:8-10 above, being a source along with others for our understanding on the Biblical teaching concerning salvation. The more “official” misrepresentation of “Protestant belief” referred to here as, “heresy. . .delusion and mania”, is the following snippet from a talk, given by Bruce R. McConkie in a BYU devotional to a Mormon audience in 1984: Quote . . .This second heresy and it is the prevailing delusion and mania that prevails to this day in the great evangelical body of Protestantism is the doctrine that we are justified by faith alone, without the works of the law. . . .It is the doctrine that we may be born again simply by confessing the Lord Jesus with our lips while we continue to live in our sins. Not much different from the following expressed in a Mormon proselytizing pamphlet: Quote Following the death of the apostles, revelation ceased. The authority of God was no longer among men. Christianity sickened and died. In time, a new religion grew up in its place—a religion that professed to be Jesus Christ’s Church, but which in reality was a conglomerate of pagan worship and Greek philosophy, “having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof.”. . .that eventually led to the complete apostasy of the true church and the eventual creation of an apostate religion that has been responsible for the extermination of the Messiah’s true followers and the persecution of his chosen people, the Jews. . . . (APOSTASY AND RESTORATION pamphlet, p.9) This is in contrast to the Roman Catholic teaching of the day (a false mixture of both the grace of God and individual merit which is what Mormonism also does in our day). The selling of indulgences in Luther’s Germany (the releasing of an individual from “purgatory” by the paying of money) became the catalyst to the beginning of what became known as the Protestant Reformation (in part brought about after Luther made a visit to Rome as part of his duties as a catholic priest). Vance, you and Anakin7 specifically have charged me falsely with the following (of what each of you believe as members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, “The Mormons”): Quote . . .Yet!!! You continue to misrepresent our teachings. . . .(September 13 Vance) . . .thank you for your polemical posts coolrok and your never ending criticisms that have been responded to adinfinentum. (February 13 Anakin7) Responding to and actually refuting the charge of having non-Biblical teachings (which is what I see being done in specifically Mormon teaching) are two different things which has not actually been demonstrated to me. President Hinckley said (in reference to a tract), “. . .It purports to set forth what you and I, as members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, believe.” You’re entitled to believe or have faith as you see fit but not to change the truth into something different from “it is written”. Also not free to misrepresent what I actually believe which is Biblical: Quote 3 And the devil said unto him, If thou be the Son of God, command this stone that it be made bread. 4 And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, that man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God. (Luke 4:3-4) Edited November 12, 2016 by coolrok7
Anakin7 Posted November 13, 2016 Posted November 13, 2016 Thank you once again coolrok7 for your concern for the welfare of our spiritual souls, it is appreciated. I am sorry that you are not satisfied with our response/refutation to your polemical arrows and darts that you propel at us on occasion, yes we see/view things differently in regards to the salvation soteriological form and model - The True Grace -charis/True Faith/pistis - Historical Biblical Saint/Early Saint/Christian understanding of the Biblical record and its background as shown by True LDS Doctrine/Teaching vrs 16th century reformation protestant understanding of the same. If I have misrepresented you in any way I apologize, I am going by my past readings and conversations with other Lutherans/ex Lutherans. I would employ you once again to access/accept/activate/grab hold of/obtain/receive/hold on to The True Grace [charis] of Jesus Christ by way of True Faith [pistis]. Must go now but I leave you this gift - http://www.14lds.com/luther.htm . The Atonement It Is The Central Doctrine Washing My Garment/Robe In The Blood Of The Lamb In His Eternal Debt/Grace Anakin7
Vance Posted November 13, 2016 Posted November 13, 2016 22 hours ago, coolrok7 said: “Protestant beliefs” are but not notions are actually based on Scriptural teaching. They are actually based on misinterpretation of scripture, and are common notions. You can quote Ephesians 2:8-10 all you want. But since your definition of grace is in error it doesn't conflict with our doctrine at all. Because you have erroneous definitions, misinterpretations of scripture and misrepresentations of scripture, you do teach several heresies. You are entitled to believe whatever you want. But the swill you are peddling is unconvincing.
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