Notions of Grace, Works, the Law, and Faith in the New Testament

[Maidservant]

Before getting into the New Testament letters, it is very telling to study what Jesus had to say about faith.

Not very much.

In his entire sermon on the mount, he never once said that word.  Nor urge his listeners to anything that had to do with our modern conception of faith.

In fact, the entire sermon is a list of actions (behavior) he wants his followers to do; as well as heart-states.  He doesn't tie it into an afterlife reward except in the (vague) mention of treasures in heaven.  I personally think he was more interested in creating a people peculiar from the world around them.

In fact, what Jesus DOES say is this:

Matthew 5:17-19

Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

He then goes on to expand upon the ten commandments and other Jewish laws, making them stricter (if you take it from that sense; or more beautiful and all-encompassing if you take it in another sense).

AND

Matthew 7:13-14

Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

Matthew 7:21

Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

 

For me, it's really hard to wonder how we get to the current debate if one takes Jesus central, foundational message (Sermon on the Mount) as the starting point.

[filovirus]

12 minutes ago, Maidservant said:

As for justification, it is not a common term that is said here and there, but I have heard lessons regarding it.  It is considered to be a state preceding sanctification.  I probably couldn't off the top of my head give the particulars. So I would say that while it is not a huge emphasis at least recently, it is not completely missing in the LDS theology.

Mostly right. Justification is always an ongoing process, dependant on our willingness to be faithful and to repent when we are not. Sanctification is becoming holy, like our Father in Heaven is holy. Since we are still not holy upon completing our baptism, we still rely on being justified by grace, and will continue to rely on it up until judgment day. Those who do not rely on Christ and repent of their sins will be punished for their own sins. D&C 19:16-18. After they have been punished, they are then justified before God without using the merits of Christ. They will then receive blessings according to the level of sanctification (holiness) that they were faithful. They will receive a degree of glory, but not the complete holiness necessary to live with the Father. 

Sanctification is our learning how to be "saints" or rather, holy, even the same holiness as the Father. Part of this learning is by accepting covenants with God. By accepting and being faithful to these covenants, God promises that he will bring us to the same level of holiness He has, this time through the enabling power of grace, as opposed to the redemptive power of grace associated with repentance. 

Justification and sanctification, technically are two different concepts, but they are tied so tightly together that often times they will be spoken of as a whole as opposed to individually. But they are both always ongoing while we are in our mortal probation and according to our faithfulness.

[Maidservant]

In the New Testament, you have Galatians, Ephesians, and Romans (and Hebrews somewhat, although Hebrews lays out a progression of states) in tension with James and Revelation (and bits like Phillipians 2:12-13).  So either you pick one or the other, or you reconcile them in some balance.  James was actually arguing FOR continuing with Mosaic Law (or some of it?) (could be wrong, but that's what I get from him).  James (2:21-34) and in Galatians (Chapter 3) are stated the exact opposite opinion about Abraham's works/faith, for example. What to do?

Tangent--I'm curious as to how many different Greek words were used that were translated into 'works' -- or just one word?-- and if there is a better translation than King James English, because I daresay the Church and language during King James would have another (third) concept of 'works', being why they chose it.

I agree with halcenero, that there is a distinction between pious living and the Mosaic law.

To Paul, a "work" was a law ritual i.e. a sacrifice of beast.  Paul said you can't do just that WORK (a token of law) you have to LIVE PIOUSLY (which is faith). (the works of the law Galatians 2:16)

Nowadays we have it exactly backwards than that.  We say that a TOKEN OF LAW (i.e. a confession or a mental/spiritual assent or a baptism--same types of item actually (NOT different) as they are both law tokens) which we term 'faith' saves us, instead of PIOUS LIVING which we term 'works'.

A confession IS a work, not a faith.  It is something that must be DONE as an event, in time.  It's not qualitatively different than a baptism or some other ritual.  The confession is a ritual as well, albeit a much simpler one.

Time and again through the Old Testament (see Isaiah) and into the New Testament, God has told us that our rituals are ultimately meaningless to him, it is what is in our hearts and our lives, and good men and women are justified by their goodness and not by the name they call out of their lips.  If the name we call, and the rituals we do, lead us to a good heart, well then, they have fulfilled their purpose.  If they haven't, well then, they are nothing.  The good heart and good living is the essence of the eternal life God has for us now and forever.

In the end, shall we go with Thessalonians?

1 Thess 1:3

Remembering without ceasing your work of faith . . .

(Also see 2 Corinthians 9:8)

 

Edited December 13, 2015 by Maidservant

[Anakin7]

Quote

       And to show we wish to remain Justified and stay in True Grace by way of True Faith coolrok7. No OSAS.

In His Eternal Debt/Grace

            Anakin7   

 

Edited December 14, 2015 by Anakin7

[coolrok7]

I thought we finished the OSAS. I'm not a promoter of the term.

The Biblical teaching is that God's declared Judgment on all those (even those who walk away form God's general revelation in Romans 1) who choose not to accept His Son's sacrifice in the atonement, can walk away from that after having been confronted by the message of the Gospel, what Jesus accomplished on the cross, for our Justification (which is what Mormonism does in, "after all we can do" Joseph Smith's addition to "by grace are we saved. . .not of works").

The Mormon teaching of:

 

Quote

By revelation, our Savior made known again the plan of salvation and exaltation. Resurrection comes as a gift to every man through Jesus Christ, but the reward of the highest eternal opportunities you must earn. It is not just enough to believe in Jesus Christ. You must work and learn, search and pray, repent and improve, know his laws and live them. (YOUR PRE-EARTH LIFE pamphlet, p.10)

Thus, brothers and sisters, along with the great and free gift of the universal and personal resurrection there is also the personal possibility of meriting eternal life. (The Ensign, Elder Neal A. Maxwell, 1997, p.23)

                        

It is through the grace of the Lord Jesus, made possible by his atoning sacrifice. . .This grace is an enabling power that allows men and women to lay hold on eternal life and exaltation after they have expended their own best efforts. . . .(AFTER ALL WE CAN DO. . .GRACE WORKS, Robert L. Millet, p.18)

Is not consistent with Biblical teaching on the matter of appealing to law to be Justified which is by faith:

 

Quote

You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace. (Galatians 5:4)

More than that, I count all things to be loss in view of the surpassing value of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them but rubbish in order that I may gain Christ, and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith, (Phillipians 3:8)

 

]

Edited December 14, 2015 by coolrok7

[Anakin7]

    Yes we are finished with the term Once Saved always Saved coolrok7 and I am thrilled you are not a promoter of the term or the doctrine. I bring it up because you keep bringing up that we LDS are not saved because of our [In your eyes/head] non True Biblical Doctrine of a Love Faith Covenant of Obediece to Christ Jesus and His True Gospel that you are on a consistant basis coming here and telling us we are unchristian and have a false gospel. Our True Biblical Christian Doctrine is that we must Accept/Access/Activate Christ Jesus Atoning Blood Sacrifice [Grace - charis - un-merited favor along with approx 40 + other anchient Biblical Definitions of the word in the anchient middle eastern Biblical world] on our behalf by way of True Faith [pistis - alegience/commtment/confidence/dedication/devotionfaithfulness/fidelity/loyalty/obedience/trust which has approx 15 other definitions of the word in the anchient middle eastern Biblical world]. We are not keeping any type of self rightious/Law of Moses type Law but The Law of Christ Jesus which is written in our Hearts/Heads to be bondservants/slaves to Him who purchased us through His Blood. Since Joseph Smith " Translated" the Book of Mormon and not "Insert" a non Biblical True Doctrine Teaching you are incorrect in your statement. Again you are getting 2 Nephi 25:23 all misinterpeted again along with the Biblical - "All you can do" Rightiousness by True Christian Biblical "Faith - pistis". Try again. http://www.biblestudyonjesuschrist.com/index-pc.html  . Belief/Believe/faith are metal/physical acts that we do with those Gifts from above to recieve True Grace. To be worthy of Jesus Christ to come unto Him and follow Him - http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/images/worthy-of-Jesus.pdf  

In His Eternal Debt/Grace

             Anakin7

Edited December 14, 2015 by Anakin7

[Anakin7]

    coolrok7 when will you respond to halconero scriptural postings that show LDS True Salvation/Soteriological Doctrine Teaching Practice to be Christian and Biblical ?. Have a True Grace filled day.

In His Eternal Debt/Grace

            Anakin7

 

Edited December 14, 2015 by Anakin7

[Anakin7]

    Some thoughts on the Role of The Holy Ghost in our Salvation/Soteriological Journey/Quest and on " Earning"  Salvation - http://www.14lds.com/holyghost.htm 

    In His Eternal debt/Grace

                 Anakin7

[coolrok7]

Anakin7, do you agree with your church's teaching concerning eternal progression and is it the result of grace or works (merit, earning it)? 

Edited December 19, 2015 by coolrok7
spelling and expanding a little on the question

[coolrok7]

On ‎12‎/‎10‎/‎2015 at 8:26 PM, halconero said:

Such notions were translated properly into the King James Version of the Bible, which predated the rise of Cartesian though and Enlightenment rationality. The connotations regarding faith and belief were accurately reflected in the scripture. Human interpretation thereof became muddled by the rise of empirical agnosticism combined with a premium on human thought. Faith and belief this became more associated with concepts of intellectual assent and agreement, and when combined with Protestant beliefs regarding the salvatory nature of Faith resulted in the common notion the a declaration of belief in Jesus as the Son of God was sufficient for salvation. This notion is incorrect and contrary to scripture.

I believe, as I will explain not a notion but the Biblical teaching

[filovirus]

25 minutes ago, coolrok7 said:

Anakin7, do you agree with your church's teaching concerning eternal progression and is it the result of grace or works (merit, earning it)? 

There are two aspects of grace. The redemptive power of grace which saves us from sin as we repent. There is also the enabling power power of grace which allows us to put "off the natural man and becometh a saint through the atonement of Christ the Lord" (Mosiah 3:19). Becoming a saint literally means starting and following the process of sanctification. So yes we do works, but the grace of Christ enables us to do them. So only through Chrst are we able to obtain the highest degree of salvation. Without grace, any amount of "works" we do would still make us unprofitable servants and subject to Eternal Damnation.

[coolrok7]

Salvation is ultimately resurrection from the dead (eternal life, a gift) escaping eternal punishment meted out to the goats (Matthew 25 Revelation 20), all the sheep being with God together for eternity in paradise. 

[coolrok7]

Jesus:

When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: . . .Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: . . .And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal. (Matthew 25:31-34, 41, 46)

[coolrok7]

 

Quote

¹¹ And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. ¹² And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. ¹³ And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. ¹⁴ And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. ¹⁵ And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. (Revelation 20:11-15)

Edited December 19, 2015 by coolrok7
added a colon at the chapter/verse

[coolrok7]

To go along with the above:

And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. ² And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. (Daniel 12:1-2)

[Anakin7]

    We are Saved by way of True Grace [ charis ] by way of True Faith [pistis].  We do not merit eternal Life in the sense of a employer employee form/model but by a patron/client form/model. We are Saved by way of the New Covenant offered us in connection to Jesus Christ and accept His Awesome Blood Sacrifice for all of mankind. We maintain that Covenant relationship by Allegience/Commitment/Confidence/Devotion/Discipleship/Faithfulness/Fidelity/Loyalty/Obedience/Trust to the Person and Work of Jesus Christ. We need to really Believe in Him [Jesus Christ ]  http://www.biblestudyonjesuschrist.com/index-pc.html   to accept/access/activate His True Grace. No Cheap Grace for us,

 

In His Eternal Debt/Grace

             Anakin7

[coolrok7]

So you are saying grace is cheap, the shed blood of Jesus?

[Calm]

He is saying the opposite, actually.

[coolrok7]

The Mormon charge is that the Protestant "faith alone" teaching is erroneous, false doctrine. Anakin7 says above, cheap grace, bluebell below, contradictory:

Quote

Erroneous Teachings of Christian Churches:   One erroneous teaching of many Christian churches is: By faith alone we are saved. This false doctrine would relieve man from the responsibility of his acts other than to confess a belief in God, and would teach man that no matter how great the sin, a confession would bring him complete forgiveness and salvation. What the world needs is more preaching of the necessity of abstaining from sin and of living useful and righteous lives, and less preaching of forgiveness of sin. . . .(A Marvelous Work and a Wonder, LeGrand Richards, p.24-26)

This second heresy-and it is the prevailing delusion and mania that prevails to this day in the great evangelical body of Protestantism-is the doctrine that we are justified by faith alone, without the works of the law. . . .It is the doctrine that we may be born again simply by confessing the Lord Jesus with our lips while we continue to live in our sins.” (Bruce R. McConkie )

The basic problem is Mormons have a distorted view of what is meant by faith alone by those who use the term. In part brought about by some that don't know how to adequately explain it. Here Paloma describes it beautifully in answer to bluebell back in 2009 in a question from bluebell:

Quote

bluebell:. . .My question is, isn't teaching that salvation comes through faith alone contradictory to what the bible says about it? The bible teaches that faith, being alone, is dead. . . .

. . .Hi Bluebell, I don't like being partisan, and I don't use the 'salvation through faith alone' argument against LDS, and I certainly don't presume to say who is saved or not, especially when it means lumping a whole group of people together (e.g. LDS in this instance). But I think I understand something about the way that non-LDS Christians understand this matter of the kind of faith 'alone' that's salvific, and the faith 'alone' that's dead.

The first kind of faith 'alone' comes from Ephesians 2: 8-9: "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast."

 

In this context, the "works" are understood to be human attempts to win God's favour by our own merit or rituals. Before Christ, we approached God through rituals and sacrifices, 'ordinances' that were meant to show us our sinfulness and need for appeasing a Holy God, but which were never truly efficacious.(The book of Hebrews makes this very clear ... that the 'old' ways were always meant to point to Jesus Christ and his sacrifice, and were never meant to be an end in themselves. Also, Galatians points out that the Law was meant to be our teacher, showing us our sin and illustrating that we could never perfectly keep the commandments on our own.)

 

Looking at the verses that follow Ephesians 2:8-9 are these words that I believe refer to what I've mentioned above:

 

Ephesians 2:13_15: "But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;

Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances..."

 

(The Law and ordinances in the Old Testament were both our teacher and guide, as well as our 'enemy' because they condemned our inability to perfectly obey, and 'save' ourselves.)

 

So when we non-LDS Christians talk about 'faith alone' saving us, we're referring to the efficacy of Jesus' death and resurrection on our behalf, and our total inability to 'help' or 'save' ourselves. God justifies us because of Christ's perfect obedience and sacrifice, not because of anything we've done or can do.

 

To my mind, the 'faith alone is dead' in James 2:17-20 is an entirely different conversation and context. James is not talking about how we are justified or 'made right' with God. He's talking about how people act and whether people truly have faith or not. I think his subtext is that true faith is experiential rather than just intellectual. True faith isn't just knowing that God exists, but following Him because we trust Him and have entrusted our lives to him. He talks about 'dead faith', and I infer from James' words about 'dead' faith that true faith is 'living' faith ... faith that's acted upon, because it's real and because the believer really trusts God. The two illustrations he immediately gives from the Old Testament, Abraham and Rahab, show they acted on their faith because they trusted God would be there for them.

 

James 2:21-26: "Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

 

And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

 

Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?

For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also."

 

The way that the 'faith alone' from Ephesians 2 and 'faith cannot be alone' from James 2 come together is that James' 'living faith' illumines what true faith looks like.

 

The idea that we are saved and justified by 'faith alone' does NOT mean that we don't do anything. Yes, we do accept Christ as our Saviour; we do repent of our sins and commit to being 'new creatures' in Christ; we do surrender our lives and wills to Him.

 

Rather, 'faith alone' means that all our attempts to win God's favour on our own are worthless, and we wholly trust on Jesus' sacrifice for God's forgiveness and His acceptance of us into His family. But that doesn't mean we shouldn't live obedient, holy lives (as James implores) and that we can't please Him by our loving obedience.

 

Edited December 20, 2015 by coolrok7
added a few terms

[bluebell]

36 minutes ago, coolrok7 said:

The Mormon charge is that the Protestant "faith alone" teaching is erroneous, false doctrine. Anakin7 says above, cheap grace, bluebell below, contradictory:

The basic problem is Mormons have a distorted view of what is meant by faith alone by those who use the term. In part brought about by some that don't know how to adequately explain it. Here Paloma describes it beautifully in answer to bluebell back in 2009 in a question from bluebell:

 

I'm sure we do.  I know i'm trying to understand better.  God bless Paloma for her sincerity and her love in trying to help us understand.

The basic problem also, is that most protestants have a distorted view of what is meant by 'being saved thru grace by obedience to the laws and ordinance of the gospel' by those who use those terms.  

Some of that is because mormons are not always great at explaining things but a lot of it is protestants who don't want to understand, and who reply to every attempt to explain with a variation of 'so is it fair to say that Mormons believe salvation is earned?'.

[coolrok7]

Thanks bluebell, I know the feeling!

I've been attending Mormon chapels, Kingdom Halls, a few mosques, etc. for years in order to try and understand the different faith perspectives.

I've taken the Gospel Principles class, watched Conference, taken the discussions with missionaries many times over the years, etc. I know what and how the Mormon message is taught and think I've a fairly good understanding at what is meant by what is said as an outsider to your faith tradition.

I'm often criticized by those here as misrepresenting what is taught by Mormon General authorities. I don't think I am.

Edited December 20, 2015 by coolrok7
to finish a thought i left out

[Anakin7]

    coolrok many here believe you are, perhaps you saw and see and saw and see not, heard and here and heard and here not. You keep ignoring the anchient semetic meanings of True Grace [charis] and True Faith [pistis] as held by the anchient Hebrew/Israelites Saints/Christians in the Holy Bible. And a # of individuals would proclaim that Martin Luther and Lutheranism of which faith house where you reside is non christian and unbiblical with a heretical salvation soteriological form model. Many would also see/hear Paul as teaching something different than Jesus Christ - http://www.jesusfamilies.org/wwbelieve/paul.htm  . And no I was NOT saying Jesus Christ Awesome Atoning Blood Sacrifice for us all was '"cheap".  You misread again. Have a True Grace filled day.

In His Eternal Debt/Grace

             Anakin7

[coolrok7]

Do you not accept that Jesus called Paul in ministry as an apostle to the Gentiles, as well as to Jews?

[Anakin7]

    Misreading me again coolrok7, I said "many" [ I did not include myself ] in that statement. Try again.

In His Eternal Debt/Grace

            Anakin7

[coolrok7]

It was for clarifying your position. I wanted to be accurate in understanding your position as you brought it up.

I've read many here making that same point.