1 Million Members Have Left Over Gay Marriage????

[california boy]

Actually, you don't get it. Not at all.

Except for the unpardonable sin, there is no sin which is worse than any other. This is because any sin, no matter how "small" you think it might be, and let's say that you think it weighs only one-tenth of an ounce, whereas murder is a ton, will keep you out of God's kingdom. This is because He cannot look upon sin with the least degree of allowance.

Let's say that you manage to make it through your entire life and you only committed a little teensy sin, and only one time: you said "God bless you" when you really didn't mean it. You took the name of God in vain. So, what's your status in comparison to Jesse James, the famous outlaw? The answer is, you are in exactly as much hot water as Jesse is, and unless you repent and are baptized by water and the spirit, you are going to have to suffer for your own sin, and you'll actually suffer exactly what Jesse does, if he doesn't repent. Because the only difference between sins is how hard it is to repent of them. Not the artificial and totally human assessment of their seriousness.

So, one homosexual act, one instance of adultery, stealing the crown jewells, or starting a land war in Asia, they are all equally deadly in the eyes of God, in the ultimate scheme of things.

CB, if a homosexual act is a sin in the eyes of God, then how can gay marriage be innocent? It makes no logical sense. The only escape from it is to proclaim that God either doesn't really exist, or someone made a copying error when they said that gay sex was a sin.

I don't get why you don't get that.

 

 

If any sin will keep you out of the kingdom of God, why are you so fixated on gay marriage?  Why does this become a ballot issue worth fighting for?  Why is gay marriage a bigger sin than gays just living together?  Or did you think that passing prop 8 would completely eliminate all gay relationships?

[Stone holm]

We lost nine in our Ward, don't know of any that joined because of it. There were quite a few that didn't leave, but felt uncomfortable with it. We probably would have lost more had they not changed the Stake President. My guess would be we lost larger numbers in some urban areas, and probably did pick up some members in the Midwest , I doubt we picked up any in the former Confederacy.

[Stargazer]

You don't think that gays have the same legal rights that you have.

No, that's false. I think that gays have the exact same legal rights that I have. I have the right to marry, and so do gays. But I am not required to marry, and neither are gays. Marriage has always been and is still now a personal contract in the law between a man and a woman. You have the right to marry any woman who will have you, which is the exact same right that I have.

What has happened is that some courts have waved a magic wand and created a right out of thin air, a right that has never existed, and a right that is absurd because marriage's intent is to engender children and to ensure that they are provided for until they can support themselves. Whereas a same sex couple cannot create children from each other. And don't try to hand me exceptions because exceptions do not invalidate intent and purpose.

Look, you got the "right". You can legally browbeat the bakers and photographers whose conscience won't let them serve a gay wedding. You can do everything you ever dreamed you wanted to do. It's done. It's over.

SO WILL YOU PLEASE STOP TRYING TO MAKE ME LIKE IT AND AGREE WITH IT? It's not going to happen.

And I'd still risk my life trying to save you and your boyfriend from a burning building.

[Stargazer]

Are you really saying that  gay couples that marry on earth will not have the opportunity for salvation?  Because gay couples don't believe in Mormonism and live celibate lives, they are damned for eternity?  That's why you are against gay marriage?

Are you kidding me? Why are you so focused on gays this and gays that? Homosexual behavior isn't by any means the only sin, or even, for that matter, the worst among sins (they're all equally wrong, but not equally repentable). Everyone has sinned, and nobody will be saved unless they repent of their sins and receive forgiveness. This is basic Christian doctrine -- have you forgotten? I am against gay marriage because it first of all isn't marriage, and second of all it institutionalizes a sinful practice. I apologize if this offends you, but institutionalizing a sinful practice does not remove the fact that it's a sinful practice. And it would take a new revelation from God, countermanding His earlier revelation about it, to make homosexual sex not a sin in and of itself. And it's not my rule, it's God's, so don't blame me.

 

Wow.  How do you feel about straight couples that aren't married?  Are they saved?

What's this "Wow" thing? I can't help it if you've forgotten everything you've ever been taught in Sunday School. Straight couples who have sex with each other without being married to each other are likewise committing a sin, and unless they repent they are just as not saved as a homosexual couple who do not repent. It's all very egalitarian.

 

Just what are you expecting out of gay couples that don't share your religious beliefs?

I expect them to do whatever the hell they want to do. And if my religious beliefs aren't true, then what difference does it make? But if my religious beliefs are true, and they reject them, then their state of unrepentedness will eventually cause them to be punished by God, who cannot look upon sin with the least degree of allowance. But if God doesn't give a fig, or doesn't exist, then that's all right then.

 

Should I accept that answer to Canard's question?

Do what you want. You've gone beyond any kind of reasonableness. You want to be accepted by God despite your sins and while you're in the middle of committing them. And I'm not focusing just on the homosexuality because you and I are both sinners by our fallen nature, we can't help it, but the difference between us is that I recognize that God won't accept me in my sins, while you don't even think you're sinning. Or maybe you've decided that all the prohibitions against homosexual sex in the Bible were typographical errors. Whatever.

What do you want? To be saved in your sins? Nobody can be saved in their sins. I can only be saved OUT of my sins, by faith in Jesus Christ, repentance, and baptism by water and spirit.

Were you ever a member of the Church? Did you ever attend any Sunday School classes, Priesthood meetings, Sacrament meetings where the Plan of Salvation was taught? If so, you've forgotten everything. You're talking as if you were channeling the German king Frederick the Great, who famously proclaimed that everyone shall be saved according to his own beliefs, or in other words, it doesn't matter what you believe. If anything.

Every single person sins in this life. Every single person falls short of the glory of God. It is only through the merits of Jesus Christ that any of us can be saved, but to be saved requires that we have faith in him, repent of our sins, get baptized (and confirmed) by someone holding the authority to do so, and then remain faithful until the end. And since acts of homosexual sex are inherently sinful, to be forgiven one must repent of them and do them no more. If celibacy is too much, then you have a choice to make, and I guess you've made it. I've just recently been widowed, and I actually don't anticipate ever being remarried until I die, so I guess I will be celibate. Since I definitely want to be forgiven of all of my sins.

That's really quite enough for today, CB. But for heaven's sake, stop pretending that it isn't generally well known that God made lots of laws for you to obey, upon pain of losing your salvation if you refused to repent of your transgressions. And if you don't believe in God, then what the heck are you even complaining about?

Edited October 18, 2015 by Stargazer

[Stargazer]

If any sin will keep you out of the kingdom of God, why are you so fixated on gay marriage?  Why does this become a ballot issue worth fighting for?  Why is gay marriage a bigger sin than gays just living together?  Or did you think that passing prop 8 would completely eliminate all gay relationships?

I've explained why seven times (I lost count) and if you don't accept my reasoning then pfft. You don't have to accept my reasoning, but do you at least understand it? Or have I confused you?

I normally don't talk about gay marriage much, but just in case you missed the turn, this is the present subject under discussion. I'm not fixated on the subject, and I don't really enjoy discussing it. I've just unwisely allowed myself to get involved in it at this time. It's not worth fighting for now, because it isn't going to be a ballot issue ever again. But it was once worth fighting for, because I believed and still believe in the principle involved. I never said that gay marriage was a bigger sin than just gays living together, NOR did I say that it was bigger than gays just hooking up. Do you understand that we are discussing gay marriage, so naturally we are going to talk about it. If we weren't discussing gay marriage, then we wouldn't be talking about it, would we?

And no, I'm not stupid enough to think that passing prop 8 would do anything to any gay relationships. Thanks for impugning my intelligence.

Oh, and just in case you missed it, when I talked about sin in my previous posts I wasn't just talking about the sin of homosexual sex, but about all sins, but there was a slight emphasis on gay sex because it was the subject under discussion. Do you get that, yet?

Edited October 18, 2015 by Stargazer

[california boy]

I would like to make a statement here.  I don't want it to be in response to what anyone has said because I don't want anyone including another poster to think the statement is directed at them or their beliefs.

 

First I completely understand the beliefs of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.  I was raised in that church.  I was a member for not only my youth but most of my adult life.  I served a faithful mission.  I have served in a bishopric, stake high counsel, taught seminary for years, been young men's president and served as teachers quorum advisor to name just a few things.  I know that the church teaches. I fully support every single member of the church to have whatever beliefs they want without passing laws prohibiting their beliefs.

 

I have chosen to leave the church and have a lasting relationship with my boyfriend.  We share a wonderful life together.  I haven't regretted that decision for one second.  I don't expect anyone to accept my relationship with him or even understand it.  I don't for one minute expect to have the opportunity to be married to a woman for eternity.  Frankly I have no desire to do so in this life or the next.  I fully expect the judgement of God for my choices and for the way I have lived my life just like every one of us who have lived on earth.

 

What I don't really get is the church's and many member's fixation on gay marriage.  Yes I understand that the church believes gay marriage is against God's commandments.  But so is gays living together without marriage.  The sin seems to be the same to me.  

 

Virtually every single court in the country has looked at this issue over a number of years and have determined that in this country.  Court after court after court have ruled that gay couples have the right under the constitution to marry.  This has gone all the way up to the Supreme Court of the United States.  

 

Gay marriage is now legal in America.  It will remain legal for the foreseeable future.  No one's life or religious beliefs have been effected by this legal decision.  You can all continue to think whatever you want about gay marriage.  No one is asking you to give up any of those beliefs.  But continuing to come up with questionable reasons why gay marriage should not be legal is pointless.  The legal questions have been decided.  It only is causing more division both within the church as well as causing many to continue to view the church in a very negative way.

 

It is time to move on.  There are other sins to worry about,  mostly our own.  Leave the sins of others for God to deal with.

[california boy]

Since you are not following any of my answers, I want to go back to your first post.  Maybe you will better understand where I am coming from.

 

My answer is this: 1. Marriage is between a man and a woman, and it always has been, because the purpose of marriage is to engendering of children, which is only possible in a heterosexual relationship. 

 

 

I get this is your BELIEF, but it is not the law of the land.  You can continue to hold that belief, no one is preventing you.  But it is no longer true.

 

 

 

2. I consider so-called marriage between two persons of the same gender to be as ugly and as disgusting as a sexual relationship between two persons of the same gender. Those are my reasons. That's why I care. You wanted to hear it, and I have obliged you. You may utter the epithet homophobe at me under your breath, or shout it from the rooftops, I don't care, but that is how I feel about it, and you aren't going to change my opinion no matter what you say or do. I see where society has gone with this, and I accept it because I must, but I do not now, nor will I ever agree with it. I hope those who engage in such relationships are happy in them. I wouldn't do anything to intervene in them, and to me they are precious children of heavenly parents, and I love them as my brothers and sisters, but they are still doing that which has been forbidden by God, and I cannot approve of it.

 

 

No one is asking you to approve of gay marriage.  You can have this belief until the day you die.  No one is asking you to change your opinion.  Your life has not been affected by gay marriage.  

[Stargazer]

It is time to move on.  There are other sins to worry about,  mostly our own.  Leave the sins of others for God to deal with.

Very well spoken, although it makes me think that you were trolling at me.

I make no doubt that someone will bring this topic up again on this forum, but since my fixation is more generally directed at sins in general and I am very tired at trying to address this one in particular, I will attempt to hold myself back from ever participating in discussing gay marriage again. Discussing whether 1 million members have left over it would be OK, of course, but staying away from discussing gay marriage itself is my goal from now on.

Have a nice day, CB! I love you, bro!

[Stargazer]

Since you are not following any of my answers, I want to go back to your first post.  Maybe you will better understand where I am coming from.

 

 

 

I get this is your BELIEF, but it is not the law of the land.  You can continue to hold that belief, no one is preventing you.  But it is no longer true.

 

 

 

 

No one is asking you to approve of gay marriage.  You can have this belief until the day you die.  No one is asking you to change your opinion.  Your life has not been affected by gay marriage.

I just think we're talking past each other. It's the law of the land, and that's the way of it. We just agree to disagree on its being against God's laws.

[california boy]

I just think we're talking past each other. It's the law of the land, and that's the way of it. We just agree to disagree on its being against God's laws.

 

I don't even disagree it being against God's law as the church understands it.

 

I also want to apologize to you.  I think I was being a bit rough on some of the things you said.  I am sorry.  I got a bit carried away.

[Stargazer]

I don't even disagree it being against God's law as the church understands it.

 

I also want to apologize to you.  I think I was being a bit rough on some of the things you said.  I am sorry.  I got a bit carried away.

 

Apology accepted, but not really needed.  I was getting a bit wound up, too, in case you didn't notice, for which I am also sorry.

[JAHS]

Yea I get it.  The church thinks gay marriage is the most immoral thing that any two people could possibly do on earth.  All other moral issues pale in comparison.  Abortion issues have been on the ballot 56 times in the last 20 years, but limiting abortion ballot measures is, well just not worth the church fighting.

 

 Heaven forbid that same sex couples are allow to marry.  It is much better that they have no way of marrying and just shack up.

 

And after all carrying the message of the restoration of the church house to house is the same thing as going door to door proclaiming how people should treat gay couples.

 

I get that you don't like the message, but the Apostles are not supposed to be here for the church alone. They are commanded by God to warn the entire world and do what is possible to get the message across and be hated for it if necessary. And you have the right to express your opinion and do what ever you can to advance your cause and rights as you see them. 

[Meadowchik]

Of course 1 million seems extremely improbable. The Church is demanding enough already that so many people leaving over an old stance made unpopular by new public opinion would be strange.

That said, this generation is growing up with a completely different popular attitudes about GLBT lives. I think it was Time magazine several years ago that published the headline "Gay is the New Straight," reflecting the cultural image of gays fitting into the 2 parent, 2 kids, house, and a picket fence American ideal.

What was once easy for some to dismiss as marginal and strange is your brother or your sister (or self) just wanting to love and live a normal life like you (or others) do.

So the command of God, while still hard for people who are GLBT, is now harder for those who are not. Before it was relatively easier to process, now it isn't.

IMO, the question comes down to what God wants of us. There are those who believe God approves their path which includes a homosexual relationship. There are those who believe God requires something mutually exclusive of that, to continue progressing eternally.

I am in favor of doing all we can to nurture loving relationships among those with these seemingly divergent beliefs. Love as we know we are to, and hope that we'll all be more ready for correcting light in the ways we need it.

[Meadowchik]

A different kind of anecdote:

A man married to a man, excommunicated but still feeling spiritual treasure to be found in the Church and remaining active in his ward.

You can read more about John Gustav-Wrathall on his youngstranger.blogspot and the No More Strangers forum, plus hear him testify of the richness of the gospel he still enjoys in his life, despite not being a member in standing in the Church. He is also the Senior VP for Affirmation.

I've had some good conversations with John and have learned a lot from him.

[why me]

The subject of gay marriage is basically a western one. It has very little effect on much of the world. Certainly, it is not intertained in muslim socieites in asia, arabia or persia. It is also not a topic in africa or india. But it is very much so in western 'white' societies where relativism and secularism has taken deep roots through media consumption etc. But this will also be polarizing in western societies as more and more muslims come to europe and other western socieites. For example, in sweden and in germany it is now very difficult to show any kind of jewishness as jews are bullied and harrassed by the arab muslim populations. This is not very often discussed in the western press. Likewise for gays. Showing gayness in arab neighborhoods would not be recommend inside europe. For example from the leading german news magazine:

 

A Turkish Issue ...

Violence against gay men has been rising here for years, said Zinn. "Especially among teenagers, we've noticed there's more homophobia, mainly because of demographic changes in Germany," he said. "We have a growing immigrant population from many countries where homosexuals are taboo."

The most obvious group is Bushido's -- Muslim kids raised in Germany, who feel sidelined, who soak up hip-hop and who might have been raised to hate homosexuals.

 

Last autumn, Germany's Lesbian and Gay Association conducted a poll financed by the federal government that showed stark levels of homophobia among Turkish teenagers. Two-thirds of high school students in Berlin with Turkish backgrounds, the poll found, had homophobic views of gays and lesbians. The study also found a direct link between levels of integration and homophobia. Teens who were more deeply religious or felt discriminated against in their own lives had a tendency to have more homophobic view.

 

http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/homophobic-violence-on-the-rise-does-germany-have-a-problem-with-gay-hate-crime-a-562638.html

 

And then this:

 

http://www.thelocal.de/20080815/13715

 

And more recently:

 

http://www.exberliner.com/features/lifestyle/between-me-and-allah/

 

This will only be increasing with the recent wave of arab immigrants into germany and europe. So, basically we are discussing western changes in their perceptions of the LBGT community. Now, how europe begins to address the homophobia and anti-semitism of the muslim european communities will not be easy, since they are more grounded in the koran and its infallibility and in their devotion to it.

 

I do believe that not many africans have left the church in africa due to the church's stance on gay marriage and also in other parts of the world, ie, latin america.

Edited October 18, 2015 by why me

[Bobbieaware]

Of course 1 million seems extremely improbable. The Church is demanding enough already that so many people leaving over an old stance made unpopular by new public opinion would be strange.

That said, this generation is growing up with a completely different popular attitudes about GLBT lives. I think it was Time magazine several years ago that published the headline "Gay is the New Straight," reflecting the cultural image of gays fitting into the 2 parent, 2 kids, house, and a picket fence American ideal.

What was once easy for some to dismiss as marginal and strange is your brother or your sister (or self) just wanting to love and live a normal life like you (or others) do.

So the command of God, while still hard for people who are GLBT, is now harder for those who are not. Before it was relatively easier to process, now it isn't.

IMO, the question comes down to what God wants of us. There are those who believe God approves their path which includes a homosexual relationship. There are those who believe God requires something mutually exclusive of that, to continue progressing eternally.

I am in favor of doing all we can to nurture loving relationships among those with these seemingly divergent beliefs. Love as we know we are to, and hope that we'll all be more ready for correcting light in the ways we need it.

When one is inspired and motivated by divine love (charity), he or she is always does what is in the ETERNAL best interests of himself and his fellow man. The confusion on this issue is generated when individuals confuse lower forms of human love and affection with that highest form of divine love we call the pure love of Christ. If the longterm prospects for true happiness can be secured only by keeping and obeying the law of chastity, then those who truly love their fellow man will have the courage to inform same sex attracted individuals that while breaking the law of chastity may bring some temporal satisfaction, in the long run will it undermine their chances for receiving an eternal weight of glory and the deepest forms of love and happiness in the eternal world. In a recent General Conference address, Elder Oaks indicated that same sex attraction is a manifestation of the fallen nature -- just as are the temptations to commit fornication and adultery -- but these very real and often gravely consequential human drives will dissipate as the dew with the dawning of the resurrection. In the eternal scheme of things, there is no divine love nor wisdom in encouraging others to build life structures that will only be torn down in the end. It is sacrifice, not giving in to the will and desires of the natural man that will bring forth the blessings of heaven.

Edited October 18, 2015 by Bobbieaware

[california boy]

I get that you don't like the message, but the Apostles are not supposed to be here for the church alone. They are commanded by God to warn the entire world and do what is possible to get the message across and be hated for it if necessary. And you have the right to express your opinion and do what ever you can to advance your cause and rights as you see them. 

 

I think that I have made pretty clear time and time again that I have never had a problem with the church teachings on homosexuality.  That has never been the issue.  What I am passionate about is fighting this direction the church took against gays OUTSIDE the church.  The church that I still highly respect and encourage my children to stay close to ATTACKED gay marriage in an unprecedented political campaign.  The leaders have NEVER addressed any other issue like they did gay marriage by raising 40 million dollars and providing 70% of the manpower for the campaign.  It was an unbelievable strong arm move that is so out of character compared to any other moral issue the church believes in.  Just look at the complete lack of political effort towards elective abortion for example   Limiting abortion in some form has been on the ballot 56 times since Row v Wade, yet not a single instance where the church did anything like it did against gay marriage.  

 

And what was the point of all of it?  To take away the legal right for gays to marry?   When anyone, including the church starts to infringe on the constitutional rights of others for it's beliefs, then THAT is what I get upset about.  I worked on the No on Prop 8 campaign.  Do you want to know why?  Not because I wanted to marry, but because I believed in protecting one's civil rights in this country.  Gay couples truly believed that they have the right to marry under the laws of California's constitution.  The highest court in California issued that ruling.  They were angry that the Mormon church and any other church thought it appropriate to take away their civil rights.   And guess what.  They were RIGHT.  They did have the constitutional right to marry not only under California law but the Federal Constitution.  This is a ruling that not only the Supreme Court  upheld, but virtually every single judge in this country.  And do you know why the majority of Americans support gay marriage?  It is simply because they also think that a church does not have the right to take away someone's civil rights.  It is taking away peoples civil rights that has caused people to leave the church.  It is the taking away of someone's civil rights that have changed the attitude of so many, especially the youth against the church.  Even within the church itself, maybe not a million have left, but certainly some have left the path of the gospel because of this unjust stance the church took.

 

There is a big difference from just speaking out and teaching over the pulpit like every other belief the church has and politically organizing to take away someone's civil rights.  For some reason, most members just don't get that difference.  Your post and so many other posts before you are proof of that.  

[california boy]

When one is inspired and motivated by divine love (charity), he or she is always does what is in the ETERNAL best interests of himself and his fellow man. The confusion on this issue is generated when individuals confuse lower forms of human love and affection with that highest form of divine love we call the pure love of Christ. If the longterm prospects for true happiness can be secured only by keeping and obeying the law of chastity, then those who truly love their fellow man will have the courage to inform same sex attracted individuals that while breaking the law of chastity may bring some temporal satisfaction, in the long run will it undermine their chances for receiving an eternal weight of glory and the deepest forms of love and happiness in the eternal world. In a recent General Conference address, Elder Oaks indicated that same sex attraction is a manifestation of the fallen nature -- just as are the temptations to commit fornication and adultery -- but these very real and often gravely consequential human drives will dissipate as the dew with the dawning of the resurrection. In the eternal scheme of things, there is no divine love nor wisdom in encouraging others to build life structures that will only be torn down in the end. It is sacrifice, not giving in to the will and desires of the natural man that will bring forth the blessings of heaven.

 

Wow what a kind way to teach the principles the church believes and supports.  I even gave you a rep point for your post.  I may not share your beliefs, but I can respect them.  Imagine how different people would look at the church today if this had been the message during the Prop 8 campaign. What if the church had not made this message political?  How many people would have turned to listen more about the teachings of the church?  How many more people would have stayed on the path towards salvation?  This feels so much more like a message from the church of Christ than a political effort to take away someone's civil rights.

[Avatar4321]

Well gay marraige is wrong. We wouldn't be doing our job of proclaiming the gospel to the world of we are going to pretend it's hunky dory

[busybee]

Why should it bother you and how does it affect you in the slightest if a same gender adult couple marry? It doesn't effect you, it doesn't harm you, it doesn't directly impact your life or moral choices. So why do you care?

Same way abortion doesn't affect me, harm me, directly impact my life or harm my moral choices? Wrong is wrong, no matter how many people don't agree.

[bluebell]

It just baffles me why Mormons think it's any of their business how two non-Mormons want to express their commitment to each other through a formal, legal ceremony. It wasn't passing a law that undermines your ability to live based on the morals you hold.

There are things that I view the legality of as being my business, even though their legality won't undermine my ability to live based on the morals I hold.

Abortion is an easy one to come up with. Certain nondiscrimination laws are another.

[Meadowchik]

Wow what a kind way to teach the principles the church believes and supports. I even gave you a rep point for your post. I may not share your beliefs, but I can respect them. Imagine how different people would look at the church today if this had been the message during the Prop 8 campaign. What if the church had not made this message political? How many people would have turned to listen more about the teachings of the church? How many more people would have stayed on the path towards salvation? This feels so much more like a message from the church of Christ than a political effort to take away someone's civil rights.

As much has been said before by the Church, many ways and times.

For Cali, Prop 8 what not denying ss relationships--those would still have access to civil unions--it was fighting for the legal meaning of marriage.

So,so much hostility has been projected onto Prop 8 supporters by opponents. The main slogan with "H8" in it,opposing Prop 8, sought to accuse the campaign as one only about hate, when the actual message Prop 8 was much like Bobbieaware's post.

[california boy]

As much has been said before by the Church, many ways and times.

For Cali, Prop 8 what not denying ss relationships--those would still have access to civil unions--it was fighting for the legal meaning of marriage.

So,so much hostility has been projected onto Prop 8 supporters by opponents. The main slogan with "H8" in it,opposing Prop 8, sought to accuse the campaign as one only about hate, when the actual message Prop 8 was much like Bobbieaware's post.

 

If you are an American that believes in the principle of "separate but equal", then you are right.  Most Americans do not believe in that principle.  That idea went out in the 60's.  What are blacks complaining about, they still have a drinking fountain.  They just can't drink out of ours.

 

Do you really think the church should hold such a belief on civil rights?  

 

Don't delude yourself.  The message the church sent on supporting Prop 8 was that "we believe gays do not deserve to have equal protection under the law that the courts have affirmed."  That was the message.  There was no love found in that message.

[Meadowchik]

When one is inspired and motivated by divine love (charity), he or she is always does what is in the ETERNAL best interests of himself and his fellow man. The confusion on this issue is generated when individuals confuse lower forms of human love and affection with that highest form of divine love we call the pure love of Christ. If the longterm prospects for true happiness can be secured only by keeping and obeying the law of chastity, then those who truly love their fellow man will have the courage to inform same sex attracted individuals that while breaking the law of chastity may bring some temporal satisfaction, in the long run will it undermine their chances for receiving an eternal weight of glory and the deepest forms of love and happiness in the eternal world. In a recent General Conference address, Elder Oaks indicated that same sex attraction is a manifestation of the fallen nature -- just as are the temptations to commit fornication and adultery -- but these very real and often gravely consequential human drives will dissipate as the dew with the dawning of the resurrection. In the eternal scheme of things, there is no divine love nor wisdom in encouraging others to build life structures that will only be torn down in the end. It is sacrifice, not giving in to the will and desires of the natural man that will bring forth the blessings of heaven.

That would be my personal take on it, pretty much, both as in understanding prophetic counsel and also my own pondering.

So let's zoom in on it.

Imagine the unmarried man and woman, living together, taking the discussions, praying about the gospel, seeking God's inspiration. For them, perhaps the only outer change required would be marriage, if they want to stay together and join the Church.

Yet, for a same-sex couple, one seeking this charity and pure love of Christ, their choice to become baptised would require them to dissolve their relationship. It could mean major traumatic changes and breaking promises.

So, understandably, that moment of decision can be much longer and complicated for those in ss relationships wanting to be part of the Church.

How should we treat them in the meantime?

[Meadowchik]

If you are an American that believes in the principle of "separate but equal", then you are right. Most Americans do not believe in that principle. That idea went out in the 60's. What are blacks complaining about, they still have a drinking fountain. They just can't drink out of ours.

Do you really think the church should hold such a belief on civil rights?

Don't delude yourself. The message the church sent on supporting Prop 8 was that "we believe gays do not deserve to have equal protection under the law that the courts have affirmed." That was the message. There was no love found in that message.

On the contrary, I believe the Church was correct and did emphasize love.

There is a difference between the opinion of SCOTUS and fact. Is your point of view the only way to see it? No, other nations' courts have affirmed that hetero couples are unique, that the differences between them and all other pairs are not subjective, not arbitrary.

We can acknowledge the findings of SCOTUS without historically revisioning, without calling them the inevitable results of justice...they were a result of the choices society made which SCOTUS enshrined.