sunstoned Posted October 18, 2015 Posted October 18, 2015 My question is why do we (collective "we" of Mormons) feel the need to read Columbus into the verses in Nephi? We know that the Spirit would wrought upon a man far removed from the Lehites who would then travel to them. This eventually results in the spread of the Gospel among them. That's it.I personally feel that given the context you just as easily read Bartolome de las Casas into the text rather than Columbus.Your opinion would be at odds with that of several general authorities.
Tacenda Posted October 18, 2015 Posted October 18, 2015 A Mythical story at best. Justifying killing in the name of God, especially the killing of innocents has led and still leads to all sorts of atrocities if the name of God. Time to move beyond such nonesense.This is what is meant by the phrase, "taking the name of God in vain" comes from, I believe.
sethpayne Posted October 18, 2015 Posted October 18, 2015 The God jesus prayed to is going to burn how many at his coming? Again, hyperbolic apocalyptic literature influenced by the heavy persecution the early Church experienced. I don't believe Jesus is going to fry anyone.
Stargazer Posted October 18, 2015 Posted October 18, 2015 I think that's the real point, ERayR. I'm not sure God would ever command the slaughter of innocents. I know that this calls several scriptural stories into question but we all know that scripture is often in error due to the influence of men. And then there's The Flood. Assuming it was historical, God caused it and it killed lots of innocents.
ERayR Posted October 18, 2015 Posted October 18, 2015 And then there's The Flood. Assuming it was historical, God caused it and it killed lots of innocents. But the whole biblical thing is all allegorical. Didn't you get the memo.
halconero Posted October 18, 2015 Posted October 18, 2015 Your opinion would be at odds with that of several general authorities.So?We have no Columbus doctrine here in the church. 2
thesometimesaint Posted October 18, 2015 Posted October 18, 2015 And then there's The Flood. Assuming it was historical, God caused it and it killed lots of innocents. You do know what "assuming" does means? Thousands of people are killed every year in the US in automobile accidents. I don't believe God caused those deaths.
Teancum Posted October 18, 2015 Posted October 18, 2015 But the whole biblical thing is all allegorical. Didn't you get the memo.Yes, yes....I see your are coming around to the "dark side." :-)
Zakuska Posted October 18, 2015 Posted October 18, 2015 And lest we forget the ultimate destruction of Sodom and Gamorah in which 2 Lords work in unison to bring about its destruction.Genesis 19Then the LORD rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD out of heaven;Remember abraham saw the lord who was running around on the earth with a sword in his hand. All "alegorical" i suppose.
Zakuska Posted October 18, 2015 Posted October 18, 2015 Again, hyperbolic apocalyptic literature influenced by the heavy persecution the early Church experienced. I don't believe Jesus is going to fry anyone.Looks like someone needs to read the Grapes of Wrath.By all accounts Jesus can fall into fits of premeditated rage.John 2And when he had made a scourge of small cords, he drove them all out of the temple, and the sheep, and the oxen; and poured out the changers' money, and overthrew the tables;Luke 22Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.Matt 10Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
thesometimesaint Posted October 18, 2015 Posted October 18, 2015 And lest we forget the ultimate destruction of Sodom and Gamorah in which 2 Lords work in unison to bring about its destruction.Genesis 19Then the LORD rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD out of heaven;Remember abraham saw the lord who was running around on the earth with a sword in his hand. All "alegorical" i suppose. God must be really mad at the Philippines.
Zakuska Posted October 18, 2015 Posted October 18, 2015 Apparently many people worship a God who is too holy to be just. ponder Pauls words here...Romans 3 5 But if our unrighteousness commend the righteousness of God, what shall we say? Is God unrighteous who taketh vengeance? (I speak as a man) 6 God forbid: for then how shall God judge the world? 7 For if the truth of God hath more abounded through my lie unto his glory; why yet am I also judged as a sinner? 8 And not rather, (as we be slanderously reported, and as some affirm that we say,) Let us do evil, that good may come? whose damnation is just.
ERayR Posted October 18, 2015 Posted October 18, 2015 Yes, yes....I see your are coming around to the "dark side." :-) Don't hold your breath. I just couldn't find a smiley for satire.
bluebell Posted October 18, 2015 Posted October 18, 2015 Apparently many people worship a God who is too holy to be just. ponder Pauls words here...Romans 35 But if our unrighteousness commend the righteousness of God, what shall we say? Is God unrighteous who taketh vengeance? (I speak as a man)6 God forbid: for then how shall God judge the world?7 For if the truth of God hath more abounded through my lie unto his glory; why yet am I also judged as a sinner?8 And not rather, (as we be slanderously reported, and as some affirm that we say,) Let us do evil, that good may come? whose damnation is just.Can you justly take vengeance on the innocent?
Teancum Posted October 19, 2015 Posted October 19, 2015 Don't hold your breath. I just couldn't find a smiley for satire.Yes I caught it.
Zakuska Posted October 19, 2015 Posted October 19, 2015 Can you justly take vengeance on the innocent?according to romans... who is 'innocent'?
bluebell Posted October 19, 2015 Posted October 19, 2015 according to romans... who is 'innocent'?Children and babies.
Zakuska Posted October 19, 2015 Posted October 19, 2015 Read chapter 3 "We have concluded all are under sin" "There is non-righteous no not one" Psalms 58:3 KJV: The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.Psalms 51:5 KJV: Because in evil I was formed in the womb and in sin my mother conceived me.Isaiah 53:6 KJV: All we like sheep have gone astray; We have turned, every one, to his own way; And the LORD has laid on Him the iniquity of us all.Genesis 6:4 KJV: And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually
bluebell Posted October 19, 2015 Posted October 19, 2015 Read chapter 3 "We have concluded all are under sin" "There is non-righteous no not one" Psalms 58:3 KJV: The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.Psalms 51:5 KJV: Because in evil I was formed in the womb and in sin my mother conceived me.Isaiah 53:6 KJV: All we like sheep have gone astray; We have turned, every one, to his own way; And the LORD has laid on Him the iniquity of us all.Genesis 6:4 KJV: And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually The Atonement of Christ declares children innocent. This means that they are not accountable for their sins and therefore, there is nothing for God to justifiably avenge. Do you disagree with that?
Zakuska Posted October 19, 2015 Posted October 19, 2015 (edited) The Atonement of Christ declares children innocent. This means that they are not accountable for their sins and therefore, there is nothing for God to justifiably avenge. Do you disagree with that? "Not being held accountable" is different than being "innocent". Would you agree? Edited October 19, 2015 by Zakuska
bluebell Posted October 19, 2015 Posted October 19, 2015 "Not being held accountable" is different than being "innocent". Would you agree? No, I don't agree. What sin would a baby being guilty of? What sin of a baby or child could God take vengeance for after Christ has declared them sinless? Is it possible to be sinless and not innocent?
Zakuska Posted October 19, 2015 Posted October 19, 2015 (edited) No, I don't agree. What sin would a baby being guilty of? What sin of a baby or child could God take vengeance for after Christ has declared them sinless? Is it possible to be sinless and not innocent? There's only one person in all of History who was both "innocent" and "sinless". That baby's can sin is a given, that can be seen in the Apostles question to Christ "who sinned, this man or his parents?". Christ hasn't declared anyone sinless. Otherwise he would have no sins to lay on himself and wouldn't have needed to die for our sins. Christ has declared us "not accountable" for our sins. Father forgive them for they know not what they do. Edited October 19, 2015 by Zakuska
Calm Posted October 19, 2015 Posted October 19, 2015 (edited) "Moroni 8: 8 Listen to the words of Christ, your Redeemer, your Lord and your God. Behold, I came into the world not to call the righteous but sinners to repentance; the whole need no physician, but they that are sick; wherefore, little children are whole, for they are not capable of committing sin; wherefore the curse of Adam is taken from them in me, that it hath no power over them; and the law of circumcision is done away in me. 9 And after this manner did the Holy Ghost manifest the word of God unto me; wherefore, my beloved son, I know that it is solemn mockery before God, that ye should baptize little children."Even if one assumes children are sinners without the Atonement, what is implied by your suggestion is that God withheld the Atonement's blessing from a particular set of children so his vengeance against then would be justified.Don't see him doing that. Edited October 19, 2015 by Calm
Zakuska Posted October 19, 2015 Posted October 19, 2015 (edited) Is it not Gods will to do with us his creation as he pleases? Romans 12:19 KJV: Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but [rather] give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance [is] mine; I will repay, saith the Lord. If children under 8 don't have any sins then how can parents be held accountable of sins their children don't have? Doctrine and Covenants 68:25https://www.lds.org/.../68... The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter‑day Saints8 Go ye into all the world, preach the gospel to every creature, acting in the authority ...have children in Zion, or in any of her stakes which are organized, that teach ... on of the hands, when eight years old, the sin be upon the heads of the parents. ... 27 And their children shall be baptized for the remission of their sins when ... How can Children be baptized at age 8 "for the remission on their sins" if they have no sins to be remited? Edited October 19, 2015 by Zakuska
bluebell Posted October 19, 2015 Posted October 19, 2015 There's only one person in all of History who was both "innocent" and "sinless". That baby's can sin is a given, that can be seen in the Apostles question to Christ "who sinned, this man or his parents?". Christ hasn't declared anyone sinless. Otherwise he would have no sins to lay on himself and wouldn't have needed to die for our sins. Christ has declared us "not accountable" for our sins. Father forgive them for they know not what they do. I think you might be confused about what the BOM teaches, and the church's doctrine, about children and sin. First, being LDS, we don't believe in the concept of original sin. All babies are born sinless, not just Christ. There is no sin that they inherit from Adam and being born is not a sin, therefore, they are born innocent. Second, yes, Christ did declare that children are saved thru His Atonement. This is why children go to the Celestial kingdom when they die, regardless of any sins that they have committed. Third, that question by the Apostles in the NT showed that they did not understand sin-it's not meant to imply that children can be born sinful. Fourth, Christ does very much hold us accountable for our sins (that verse in the NT is generally understood to be Christ speaking about the Romans, who did not know who they were crucifying). That is why He commands us to repent. 1
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