hagoth7 Posted October 12, 2015 Posted October 12, 2015 Iirc, John Cabot is one of the candidates considered in Columbus' place.Along with Leif Erikson...
Calm Posted October 12, 2015 Posted October 12, 2015 Along with Leif Erikson...I don't see Erikson as a good candidate because his exploration didn't open up the continent to other Gentiles.
hagoth7 Posted October 13, 2015 Posted October 13, 2015 Who do you think it is?In my opinion, Leif. Leif sailed from Greenland to Norway in 999 AD. There, he converted to Christianity, and was given the mission of introducing the faith to Greenland. When travelling from Norway to Greenland, Leif was blown off course, where he saw a land that had “self-sown wheat fields and grapevines.” Returning to Greenland, he mounted an expedition to that land, and made landfall, where they stayed for the winter. Afterwards, they returned to Greenland with grapes and timber. Leif’s success there encouraged others to return. For example, his brother went there, which resulted in a pitched battle between the Norsemen and the natives. “It has been suggested that the knowledge of Vinland might have been maintained in European seaports in the 15th century, and that Christopher Columbus, who claimed in a letter to have visited Iceland in 1477, could have heard stories of it.”https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leif_Erikson Elsewhere, I have written about the imagery used in the Vinland sagas, which suggests that the Christian Norsemen recognized the land as a prophetic land of promise.writt
mapman Posted October 13, 2015 Posted October 13, 2015 (edited) The main thing I get out of that passage in the Book of Mormon was that God wanted the Old and New Worlds to come into permanent contact with each other. Columbus for some reason happened to be the person who initiated permanent interaction between continents. The Columbian exchange definitely wreaked havoc on the Indians, but I think it was probably one of the main things that led to the huge advancements humanity made during the following centuries, and made us into the globalized society that we are today. ETA: I've heard people argue that the Book of Mormon is talking about someone else like Cabeza de Vaca or de Las Casas, but it seems pretty clear to me that it's supposed to be Columbus. Edited October 13, 2015 by mapman
strappinglad Posted October 13, 2015 Posted October 13, 2015 It is my understanding that disease wiped out 90% of the native populations in the Americas. War also did significant damage. Many tribes, because of intertribal trade, were decimated long before the actual arrival of Europeans into their areas. Columbus may have been directly responsible for many deaths but, smallpox and measles and a dozen other infectious diseases which the natives were not immune to, did most of the destruction. Even if the Spaniards had been the most benevolent of explorers , diseases brought by them and their animals would still have exterminated millions. 1
TheSkepticChristian Posted October 13, 2015 Posted October 13, 2015 Even if the Spaniards had been the most benevolent of explorers , diseases brought by them and their animals would still have exterminated millions. and your point is?
TheSkepticChristian Posted October 13, 2015 Posted October 13, 2015 (edited) The passage of scripture said that the Spirit "wrought upon the man" (i.e. Columbus). It didn't say the man was perfect, or even saintl Please reread my question. I am sure there were many Europeans way better than Columbus. Columbus was a monster. Edited October 13, 2015 by TheSkepticChristian
strappinglad Posted October 13, 2015 Posted October 13, 2015 Compared to Cortez and Pizarro , Columbus is way down the list when it comes to monsters. For that matter, Montezuma was no saint , otherwise the surrounding tribute tribes would not have been so anxious to join the Spaniards against him. The fact that the Amerindian were isolated from Asia and Europe and Africa ,protected them for centuries. It also doomed them whenever the inevitable outside contact arrived, be it 1492 or years later. 1
Sevenbak Posted October 13, 2015 Author Posted October 13, 2015 (edited) Can someone please explain that. Why the wrath of God? I think Christ {starting in verse 8} and Mormon (starting in verse 15) explained it better than any of us could. We may not like it, and it goes against modern political correctness, but I suppose the Lord had his reasons. In both links, , what's promising to me is that the tables will turn, and the Gentiles who scattered the Lamanites will in turn be scattered by the Lamanites because of their wickedness. That is yet to happen. This is their land of promise after all, we're just along for the ride. I think we can deride Columbus all we want until we're blue in the face, but the fact of the matter is that the Lord planned this, told his ancient prophets he would do it, and then acted accordingly to allow it to happen, even if He did inspire Columbus. We're all frail humans after all. Edited October 13, 2015 by Sevenbak
Rajah Manchou Posted October 13, 2015 Posted October 13, 2015 The main thing I get out of that passage in the Book of Mormon was that God wanted the Old and New Worlds to come into permanent contact with each other. Columbus for some reason happened to be the person who initiated permanent interaction between continents. The Columbian exchange definitely wreaked havoc on the Indians, but I think it was probably one of the main things that led to the huge advancements humanity made during the following centuries, and made us into the globalized society that we are today. ETA: I've heard people argue that the Book of Mormon is talking about someone else like Cabeza de Vaca or de Las Casas, but it seems pretty clear to me that it's supposed to be Columbus.I like this idea, but Magellan was the first to demonstrate that the oceans were connected and that a complete round of the earth could be made, effectively linking the Old World to the New World. He also claimed to be driven/led by a divine purpose or power and was many times more humane than your typical conquistador. Magellan also discovered many of the islands in the Pacific including Guam and the Philippines, where he was killed before he could complete his circuit.If we're looking for the first person to sail all the way around, that honor probably goes to Enrique of Malacca, Magellan's Malay slave, the first to leave from his homeland and return.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enrique_of_Malacca
Rivers Posted October 13, 2015 Posted October 13, 2015 (edited) Elder Anderson would tell us to "give Brother Christopher a break!" Edited October 13, 2015 by Rivers
Sevenbak Posted October 13, 2015 Author Posted October 13, 2015 (edited) Elder Anderson would tell us to "give Brother Christopher a break!" President Hinckley said as much in CG too. The entire world is celebrating this month the five hundredth anniversary of the discovery of America by Christopher Columbus... ...In my private commemoration of this event, I have read and reread one important and prophetic verse from the Book of Mormon, and also a very long biography of Christopher Columbus.That verse from Nephi’s vision states: “And I looked and beheld a man among the Gentiles, who was separated from the seed of my brethren by the many waters; and I beheld the Spirit of God, that it came down and wrought upon the man; and he went forth upon the many waters, even unto the seed of my brethren, who were in the promised land.” 1 Ne. 13:12 We interpret that to refer to Columbus. It is interesting to note that the Spirit of God wrought upon him. After reading that long biography, a Pulitzer winner of forty years ago, titled Admiral of the Ocean Sea—I have no doubt that Christopher Columbus was a man of faith, as well as a man of indomitable determination. I recognize that in this anniversary year a host of critics have spoken out against him. I do not dispute that there were others who came to this Western Hemisphere before him. But it was he who in faith lighted a lamp to look for a new way to China and who in the process discovered America. His was an awesome undertaking—to sail west across the unknown seas farther than any before him of his generation. He it was who, in spite of the terror of the unknown and the complaints and near mutiny of his crew, sailed on with frequent prayers to the Almighty for guidance. In his reports to the sovereigns of Spain, Columbus repeatedly asserted that his voyage was for the glory of God and the spread of the Christian faith. Properly do we honor him for his unyielding strength in the face of uncertainty and danger. Edited October 13, 2015 by Sevenbak 1
MiserereNobis Posted October 13, 2015 Posted October 13, 2015 At what point do we stop honoring someone who did something good because of all the bad they did? Where do we draw the line? Columbus did lead a wild adventure. And he did proselytize the Americas for Christianity (Catholicism, suckas! ) but... does he deserve a holiday, based on all the terrible stuff he did? Those in favor of honoring Columbus, please explain at what point someone's terrible deeds overcome their positive deeds so we should no longer honor them. 1
rodheadlee Posted October 13, 2015 Posted October 13, 2015 At what point do we stop honoring someone who did something good because of all the bad they did? Where do we draw the line? Columbus did lead a wild adventure. And he did proselytize the Americas for Christianity (Catholicism, suckas! ) but... does he deserve a holiday, based on all the terrible stuff he did? Those in favor of honoring Columbus, please explain at what point someone's terrible deeds overcome their positive deeds so we should no longer honor them.You have fee will, honor him or don't. Everyone here complaining and judging Columbus will have a chance to accuse him to his face during judgement day.
rodheadlee Posted October 13, 2015 Posted October 13, 2015 What is so hard to understand about inflicting genocide upon an innocent people as punishment for what their ancestors did 1200 years prior?What innocent people? You mean like the Aztecs?
MiserereNobis Posted October 13, 2015 Posted October 13, 2015 What innocent people? You mean like the Aztecs? It was Cortes that dealt with the Aztecs...
MiserereNobis Posted October 13, 2015 Posted October 13, 2015 You have fee will, honor him or don't. Everyone here complaining and judging Columbus will have a chance to accuse him to his face during judgement day. I'll face Columbus during judgement day? Of all the millions billions trillions and on and on people that have lived on the earth, and all of those that will live on the earth, Columbus will be one that I get to talk to at judgement day?
hagoth7 Posted October 13, 2015 Posted October 13, 2015 ...In both links, , what's promising to me is that the tables will turn, and the Gentiles who scattered the Lamanites will in turn be scattered by the Lamanites...Why assume it is only a reference to the Lamanites? The passages you cite refer to God's people as "the house of Israel", and also refer to the "remnant of the seed of Jacob" (Jacob=Israel). Are the Lamanites the only people of such descent who have been God's people, and who have been driven, scattered, and cast out in the Americas? If not, why assume this reference includes only Lamanites, but excludes other descendants of Lehi, and others of the house of Israel? ...This is their land of promise after all, we're just along for the ride....Theirs, certainly. But who says it's not yours and mine too? Consider 1 Nephi 13 and the assurance that crucial covenants and plain and precious things would be edited out, causing many to stumble for not knowing their covenant heritage. I suggest also considering passages like 1 Nephi 15, D&C 3, D&C 2, 2 Nephi 30, elsewhere in 3 Nephi 16, 3 Nephi 21, Ether 13, and the title page of the Book of Mormon: Written to the Lamanites, who are a remnant of the house of Israel; and also to Jew and Gentile...Which is to show unto the remnant of the house of Israel what great things the Lord hath done for their fathers; and that they may know the covenants of the Lord, that they are not cast off forever... In short, if the land also belongs to others of the house of Jacob/Israel, we're more than just "along for the ride".
hagoth7 Posted October 13, 2015 Posted October 13, 2015 (edited) I don't see Erikson as a good candidate because his exploration didn't open up the continent to other Gentiles.But his exploration likely did. It opened up the continent to Norse exploration for centuries."Erikson's successful expedition in Vinland encouraged other Norsemen to also make the journey. ...sporadic voyages at least to Markland for forages, timber and trade possibly lasted for centuries."https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leif_Erikson And again, I'll quote from my post that immediately followed yours:"It has been suggested that the knowledge of Vinland might have been maintained in European seaports in the 15th century, and that Christopher Columbus, who claimed in a letter to have visited Iceland in 1477, could have heard stories of it." In addition to possibly hearing of Vinland accounts while In Iceland, Columbus could also have come across Vinland accounts elsewhere through things like Adam of Bremen's Latin account. Adam himself wrote that he used the Danish King Svein Estridsson as a source for part of his account. "In addition to Svein, who supplied Adam with a great amount of information, he probably also spoke with sailors, travellers and merchants. The work contains a great deal of information: descriptions of trade routes, reports of wars, of Christians and heathens and much more." http://www.vikingeskibsmuseet.dk/en/the-sea-stallion-past-and-present/historical-characters/adam-of-bremen/#.VhywZCuzk1c(Columbus would have been able to understand Adam's account, for he was fluent in Latin, and kept his journal in Latin.) If the medieval Adam pursued such inquiry among sailors, travelers and merchants in ports of call, wouldn't Columbus, who spent years researching all things "Atlantic", have done much the same in his voyages throughout Europe, and likely learned of the Vinland voyages westward? Especially since voyages to Markland (another part of North America) possibly continued centuries later...i.e. until shortly before Columbus? Edited October 13, 2015 by hagoth7
TheSkepticChristian Posted October 13, 2015 Posted October 13, 2015 The passage of scripture said that the Spirit "wrought upon the man" (i.e. Columbus). It didn't say the man was perfect, or even saintly. So? Columbus was a monster even by 14th century standards. Please read what I said Not worth much. God knows the thoughts and heart of men, so why did he inspire evil Columbus to go to America? Isn't God the greatest seer?
TheSkepticChristian Posted October 13, 2015 Posted October 13, 2015 I don't see Erikson as a good candidate because his exploration didn't open up the continent to other Gentiles. but you do need to find another candidate. Columbus was the worst of the worst.
Alan Posted October 13, 2015 Posted October 13, 2015 (edited) I think my candidate for Nephi's "gentile" is John Cabot. Columbus already knew where he was going and the existence of the new world was an open secret before he set off. Edited October 13, 2015 by Alan
Sevenbak Posted October 13, 2015 Author Posted October 13, 2015 Why assume it is only a reference to the Lamanites? The passages you cite refer to God's people as "the house of Israel", and also refer to the "remnant of the seed of Jacob" (Jacob=Israel). Are the Lamanites the only people of such descent who have been God's people, and who have been driven, scattered, and cast out in the Americas? If not, why assume this reference includes only Lamanites, but excludes other descendants of Lehi, and others of the house of Israel? Theirs, certainly. But who says it's not yours and mine too? Consider 1 Nephi 13 and the assurance that crucial covenants and plain and precious things would be edited out, causing many to stumble for not knowing their covenant heritage. I suggest also considering passages like 1 Nephi 15, D&C 3, D&C 2, 2 Nephi 30, elsewhere in 3 Nephi 16, 3 Nephi 21, Ether 13, and the title page of the Book of Mormon: Written to the Lamanites, who are a remnant of the house of Israel; and also to Jew and Gentile...Which is to show unto the remnant of the house of Israel what great things the Lord hath done for their fathers; and that they may know the covenants of the Lord, that they are not cast off forever... In short, if the land also belongs to others of the house of Jacob/Israel, we're more than just "along for the ride".I'm not assuming. Christ is talking specifically with Lehi's seed. Consider verse 7 and 8. "Behold, because of their belief in me, saith the Father, and because of the unbelief of you, O house of Israel, in the latter day shall the truth come unto the Gentiles, that the fulness of these things shall be made known unto them... ...for notwithstanding they have come forth upon the face of this land, and have scattered my people who are of the house of Israel... The promises to Israel, and specifically to the seed of Joseph when it comes to this land are great. This is still their inheritance, not ours, although we are adopted into those promises through baptism and faithfulness.
Sevenbak Posted October 13, 2015 Author Posted October 13, 2015 Looks like Clark Hinckley, President Hinckley's son, posted an article yesterday talking about this issue. Good read. He's previously written a book on Columbus. What Mormons Should Know About Christopher Columbus and the Restoration.http://www.ldsliving.com/What-Mormons-Should-Know-about-Christopher-Columbus-and-the-Restoration/s/77060
rodheadlee Posted October 13, 2015 Posted October 13, 2015 I'll face Columbus during judgement day? Of all the millions billions trillions and on and on people that have lived on the earth, and all of those that will live on the earth, Columbus will be one that I get to talk to at judgement day?Not you personally but anyone that has been accused of something they are not guilty of will have the right to face their accuser. We can't just say whatever we want and not expect to be held accountable for it. Sorry I didn't make myself more clear. I'm going insane. I've been re caulking my teak deck for 40 days. Cut out old caulk, carve groove to a depth of 8mm, sand sides with a popsicle stick wrapped with 80 grit sand paper, mask with blue tape, caulk and wipe clean, pull tape. I'm on my last section that affects the integrity of the boat. I have sanded my finger tips off and sanded through 2 sets of gloves. I was sooooooo grateful when Home Depot started carrying XXL gloves. and I'm trying to beat El Nino. It's appears I have succeed. Any rain on the open grooves would be disastrous.. So far I've used 48 tubes of caulking and 32 rolls of blue 1 inch masking tape. It's really dried out old teak and much prayer has been involved. 1
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