bluebell Posted October 19, 2015 Posted October 19, 2015 Is it not Gods will to do with us his creation as he pleases? Romans 12:19 KJV: Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but [rather] give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance [is] mine; I will repay, saith the Lord. If children under 8 don't have any sins then how can parents be held accountable of sins their children don't have? Doctrine and Covenants 68:25https://www.lds.org/.../68... The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter‑day Saints8 Go ye into all the world, preach the gospel to every creature, acting in the authority ...have children in Zion, or in any of her stakes which are organized, that teach ... on of the hands, when eight years old, the sin be upon the heads of the parents. ... 27 And their children shall be baptized for the remission of their sins when ... How can Children be baptized at age 8 "for the remission on their sins" if they have no sins to be remited? All of these references are from lds.org The unnecessary practice of baptizing babies and children who are under the age of accountability, which is eight years old. The Lord condemns infant baptism (Moro. 8:10–21). Children are born innocent and without sin. Satan has no power to tempt children until they begin to become accountable (D&C 29:46–47) so they have no need to repent or be baptized. Children should be baptized at the age of eight (D&C 68:25–27). Except ye become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven:Matt. 18:3;Little children also have eternal life:Mosiah 15:25;Infant baptism is an abomination, and little children are alive in Christ because of the Atonement:Moro. 8:8–24;Little children are redeemed through the Only Begotten; Satan cannot tempt them:D&C 29:46–47;Children are to be taught the gospel and baptized when eight years old:D&C 68:25–28;Little children are sanctified through Jesus Christ:D&C 74:7;Men become again, in their infant state, innocent:D&C 93:38;All children who die before the age of accountability are saved in the celestial kingdom:D&C 137:10;Children are whole from the foundation of the world:Moses 6:54;
Zakuska Posted October 19, 2015 Posted October 19, 2015 (edited) I think you might be confused about what the BOM teaches, and the church's doctrine, about children and sin. First, being LDS, we don't believe in the concept of original sin. All babies are born sinless, not just Christ. There is no sin that they inherit from Adam and being born is not a sin, therefore, they are born innocent. Second, yes, Christ did declare that children are saved thru His Atonement. This is why children go to the Celestial kingdom when they die, regardless of any sins that they have committed. Third, that question by the Apostles in the NT showed that they did not understand sin-it's not meant to imply that children can be born sinful. Fourth, Christ does very much hold us accountable for our sins (that verse in the NT is generally understood to be Christ speaking about the Romans, who did not know who they were crucifying). That is why He commands us to repent.How can children of age 8 be "Baptized for the remission of their sins" if they have no sins to be remitted? D&C 68:27And their children shall be baptized for the remission of their sins when eight years old, and receive the laying on of the hands Just because children arent held accountable because they haven't reached age 8 doesn't mean they have no sin. They're just not held accoutable for those things they do prior to baptism. Just like adults who get baptized and their slate wiped clean. Edited October 19, 2015 by Zakuska
bluebell Posted October 19, 2015 Posted October 19, 2015 How can children of age 8 be "Baptized for the remission of their sins" if they have no sins to be remitted? D&C 68 I refer you to post #176, which lists scriptures that further clarify children, sin, and baptism.
Zakuska Posted October 19, 2015 Posted October 19, 2015 (edited) I refer you to post #176, which lists scriptures that further clarify children, sin, and baptism.Yes I saw that. But you didn't answer the question. How can children of age 8 be "baptised for the remission of their sins" if they have no sins to be remitted? D&C 68:27And their children shall be baptized for the remission of their sins when eight years old, and receive the laying on of the hands What is it we teach our children when preparing them for baptism? Again just because we don't "hold them accoutable" (thats where the whole "age of accountability" comes from in all the verses you quoted) doesn't mean they are sinless and not sinners by nature. Edited October 19, 2015 by Zakuska
bluebell Posted October 19, 2015 Posted October 19, 2015 Yes I saw that. But you didn't answer the question. How can children of age 8 be "baptised for the remission of their sins" if they have no sins to be remitted? D&C 68:27And their children shall be baptized for the remission of their sins when eight years old, and receive the laying on of the hands What is it we teach our children when preparing them for baptism? Probably because most children are not baptized the second they become accountable for their sins, therefore, they have sinned before baptism.
Zakuska Posted October 19, 2015 Posted October 19, 2015 (edited) Probably because most children are not baptized the second they become accountable for their sins, therefore, they have sinned before baptism. Correct. And according to the ancient Prophets... they were sinners while still in the womb. Psalms 51For I was born a sinner--yes, from the moment my mother conceived me. ... Because in evil I was formed in the womb and in sin my mother conceived me. Paul further explains... Romans 5Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those whose sin s weren't like Adam's disobedience, who is a foreshadowing of him who was to come A baby has inherited Mortal death from father Adam even though they haven't done anything good or bad and thus are already pre-judged as sinners, for merely being part of the mortal human race. Baby's are born with a pre-determined expiration date according to the scriptures. They have a death penalty automatically built in. Edited October 19, 2015 by Zakuska
thesometimesaint Posted October 19, 2015 Posted October 19, 2015 Hebrews 13:4Marriage is honourable in all, and the bed undefiled: but whoremongers and adulterers God will judge.
bluebell Posted October 19, 2015 Posted October 19, 2015 Correct. And according to the ancient Prophets... they were sinners while still in the womb. Psalms 51For I was born a sinner--yes, from the moment my mother conceived me. ... Because in evil I was formed in the womb and in sin my mother conceived me. Paul further explains... Romans 5Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those whose sin s weren't like Adam's disobedience, who is a foreshadowing of him who was to come A baby has inherited Mortal death from father Adam even though they haven't done anything good or bad and thus are already pre-judged as sinners, for merely being part of the mortal human race. If you believe that, that's fine, but your interpretation of these verses are completely against the teachings in the BOM and the doctrines of the LDS church. I'm talking about this topic based on LDS doctrine. If you are basing it on the doctrine of some other church, then that explains our differences of opinion. Inheriting mortality does not make anyone a sinner (that is the concept of original sin, which the church flatly and wholeheartedly rejects). Jesus inherited mortality from His mother, and it did not make Him sinful. Being subject to physical death is not the same thing as being born sinful. 2
Zakuska Posted October 19, 2015 Posted October 19, 2015 (edited) If you believe that, that's fine, but your interpretation of these verses are completely against the teachings in the BOM and the doctrines of the LDS church. I'm talking about this topic based on LDS doctrine. If you are basing it on the doctrine of some other church, then that explains our differences of opinion. Inheriting mortality does not make anyone a sinner (that is the concept of original sin, which the church flatly and wholeheartedly rejects). Jesus inherited mortality from His mother, and it did not make Him sinful. Being subject to physical death is not the same thing as being born sinful. I'm not talking original sin either. AOF: "Man is punished for his own sins and not Adams transgretion" But we have inherited death all the same from our father Adam even though we didn't sin like him. Just because the BOM comes along and the Lord "corrects" all these Ancient Prophets feelings doesn't make what the Prophets said untrue. Again "not being held accountable" is different than being "innocent". What did God tell Isaiah? Isaiah 48 8 You did not hear, you do not know, you were not told beforehand. For I know that you are very deceitful; you were labeled a rebel from birth. 9 For the sake of my reputation I hold back my anger; for the sake of my prestige I restrain myself from destroying you. So which Prophet do we like Best? Isaiah or Moroni? Why is the Lord contradicting himself? Isaiah is a rebel from birth and in Moroni he says children cant sin. I wish God would make up his mind?! Edited October 19, 2015 by Zakuska
hagoth7 Posted October 19, 2015 Posted October 19, 2015 I'm not talking original sin either. AOF: "Man is punished for his own sins and not Adams transgretion" But we have inherited death all the same from our father Adam even though we didn't sin like him. Just because the BOM comes along and the Lord "corrects" all these Ancient Prophets feelings doesn't make what the Prophets said untrue. Again "not being held accountable" is different than being "innocent". What did God tell Isaiah? Isaiah 48 8 You did not hear, you do not know, you were not told beforehand. For I know that you are very deceitful; you were labeled a rebel from birth. 9 For the sake of my reputation I hold back my anger; for the sake of my prestige I restrain myself from destroying you. So which Prophet do we like Best? Isaiah or Moroni? Why is the Lord contradicting himself?...The context of the first verses of that chapter suggests that God is speaking to Israel collectively as a nation. The reference to their birth, based on the context, suggests he is speaking about their early choices as a chosen nation. They were rebellious from early on. Repeatedly. Even before entering their Promised Land. If that was the intended context, I see no contradiction. 2
bluebell Posted October 19, 2015 Posted October 19, 2015 I'm not talking original sin either. AOF: "Man is punished for his own sins and not Adams transgretion" But we have inherited death all the same from our father Adam even though we didn't sin like him. Just because the BOM comes along and the Lord "corrects" all these Ancient Prophets feelings doesn't make what the Prophets said untrue. Again "not being held accountable" is different than being "innocent". What did God tell Isaiah? Isaiah 48 8 You did not hear, you do not know, you were not told beforehand. For I know that you are very deceitful; you were labeled a rebel from birth. 9 For the sake of my reputation I hold back my anger; for the sake of my prestige I restrain myself from destroying you. So which Prophet do we like Best? Isaiah or Moroni? Why is the Lord contradicting himself? Isaiah is a rebel from birth and in Moroni he says children cant sin. I wish God would make up his mind?! He's not contradicting Himself. We are all capable of rebelling against God at birth because we inherit that ability from Adam. And we all will eventually sin, and we all will be held accountable for those sins if we live past the age of accountability. All God is teaching us thru that verse in Isaiah is that spiritual death is real and a consequence of the Fall of Adam and Eve impact us all. Moroni and Mormon (and our prophets now) do not deny that. Children are conceived in sin, or as Robert Millet puts it, thru conception and birth children inherit the ability to sin, just as they inherit the ability to die. Children are not born dead though, just as they are not born sinful. The seed for both kinds of death is planted at birth, but birth is not the act that brings the seeds to harvest. 1
thesometimesaint Posted October 19, 2015 Posted October 19, 2015 The ability to sin is not the same thing as sinning. Jesus was tempted in all things so he had the ability to sin. He used his agency not to. We are immortal spirits having a mortal experience. Jesus died, he wasn't a sinner. His Resurrection gives us our Resurrection. 2
Gray Posted October 19, 2015 Posted October 19, 2015 For LDS, the existence of Moses is a given. Otherwise how could a non-existent person suddenly appear to Joseph Smith on April 3, 1836. It's entirely possible to have a visionary experience that is not a personal visitation.
Gray Posted October 19, 2015 Posted October 19, 2015 I agree with you and I do not think it possible for me to kill children. To do so would be the end of a full nights sleep for the rest of my life but what makes you think it is any easier for God? My question is why would it be easier for God to do it directly than to have men as intermediaries? Exactly the reason why an interventionist and personal God doesn't make much sense.
Sevenbak Posted October 19, 2015 Author Posted October 19, 2015 (edited) I'm just jumping in here, sorry, don't have the time to catch up and respond several pages worth. It occurs to me that the Lord commanded Alma and Amulek to stay their hand and not use their priesthood in order to save the women and children of the righteous people of Ammonihah. He would rather them be slain so it could be a "witness" against the bad guys at the last day! Who then are we to judge what He does with children of the wicked? We know He allows death, and even sometimes commands it for His purposes.And let's not forget D&C 113 And the anger of the Lord is kindled, and his sword is bathed in heaven, and it shall fall upon the inhabitants of the earth....17 Wherefore, I the Lord, knowing the calamity which should come upon the inhabitants of the earth, called upon my servant Joseph Smith, Jun., and spake unto him from heaven, and gave him commandments;I have no doubt He sends rain on both the just and the unjust. I also have no doubt there are many who will try to steady His ark, thinking they know better than Him. Edited October 20, 2015 by Sevenbak 2
thesometimesaint Posted October 20, 2015 Posted October 20, 2015 (edited) I'm just jumping in here, sorry, don't have the time to catch up and respond several pages worth. It occurs to me that the Lord commanded Alma and Amulek to stay their hand and not use their priesthood in order to save the women and children of the righteous people of Ammonihah. He would rather them be slain so it could be a "witness" against the bad guys at the last day! Who then are we to judge what He does with children of the wicked? We know He allows death, and even sometimes commands it for His purposes.And let's not forget D&C 113 And the anger of the Lord is kindled, and his sword is bathed in heaven, and it shall fall upon the inhabitants of the earth....17 Wherefore, I the Lord, knowing the calamity which should come upon the inhabitants of the earth, called upon my servant Joseph Smith, Jun., and spake unto him from heaven, and gave him commandments;I have no doubt He sends rain on both the just and the unjust. I also have no doubt there are many who will try to steady His ark, thinking they know better than Him. I don't overly worry about what God will do. Men claiming what God told them to do is another question. Edited October 20, 2015 by thesometimesaint 1
ERayR Posted October 20, 2015 Posted October 20, 2015 I don't overly worry about what God will do. Men claiming what God told them to do is another question. That is what personal confirmation (revelation) is for.
thesometimesaint Posted October 20, 2015 Posted October 20, 2015 That is what personal confirmation (revelation) is for. Agreed.
Sevenbak Posted October 20, 2015 Author Posted October 20, 2015 I don't overly worry about what God will do. Men claiming what God told them to do is another question.I think it's a question of whether or not we believe in God's dealing with prophets in the past or future. Did Moses lie about god sending an angel of death to slay babies? (Or for that matter all the babies he slayed by commandment of the Lord.) Is the Passover celebrated and reverenced by the Jews just a myth? It's impossible to try to fit God or his motives and ways into our limited understanding. 1
thesometimesaint Posted October 20, 2015 Posted October 20, 2015 I think it's a question of whether or not we believe in God's dealing with prophets in the past or future. Did Moses lie about god sending an angel of death to slay babies? (Or for that matter all the babies he slayed by commandment of the Lord.) Is the Passover celebrated and reverenced by the Jews just a myth?It's impossible to try to fit God or his motives and ways into our limited understanding. People have been doing evil things for a long time now, and blaming God for it. Myth isn't something without truth and/or facts. IE; It is pretty well established that an itinerant preacher called Yeshua bar Yosef was born some 2000 years ago in Roman Palestine. That he was the Son of God is a religious belief that I hold. 1
bluebell Posted October 20, 2015 Posted October 20, 2015 I think it's a question of whether or not we believe in God's dealing with prophets in the past or future. Did Moses lie about god sending an angel of death to slay babies? (Or for that matter all the babies he slayed by commandment of the Lord.) Is the Passover celebrated and reverenced by the Jews just a myth?It's impossible to try to fit God or his motives and ways into our limited understanding. We don't believe the bible is inerrant, which means that we do believe the bible has errors in it. This does not have to do with a prophet of God lying, but has to do with an imperfect scriptural record. I completely agree that we can't fit God into our limited understanding. However, that doesn't mean we just believe everything that the bible says just because it says it. We're not protestants.
Sevenbak Posted October 20, 2015 Author Posted October 20, 2015 People have been doing evil things for a long time now, and blaming God for it.Myth isn't something without truth and/or facts. IE; It is pretty well established that an itinerant preacher called Yeshua bar Yosef was born some 2000 years ago in Roman Palestine. That he was the Son of God is a religious belief that I hold.It's also a religious belief that I hold that Moses was a dispensational prophet, called, chosen and obedient to God. He appeared to Christ and gave him keys in the meridian of time, he appeared to Joseph Smith in these times and gave him same keys. If some want to just dismiss him away as doing his own evil thing and then blaming God, that's their choice... but I won't do that.
Sevenbak Posted October 20, 2015 Author Posted October 20, 2015 We don't believe the bible is inerrant, which means that we do believe the bible has errors in it. This does not have to do with a prophet of God lying, but has to do with an imperfect scriptural record.I completely agree that we can't fit God into our limited understanding. However, that doesn't mean we just believe everything that the bible says just because it says it. We're not protestants.While I agree with the general premise, the Scriptures are not a smorgasbord buffet... we can't pick and choose what we like. If you have evidence that genocidal wars of Moses and Joshua were mistranslated, I'd be interested to see it.
thesometimesaint Posted October 20, 2015 Posted October 20, 2015 It's also a religious belief that I hold that Moses was a dispensational prophet, called, chosen and obedient to God. He appeared to Christ and gave him keys in the meridian of time, he appeared to Joseph Smith in these times and gave him same keys. If some want to just dismiss him away as doing his own evil thing and then blaming God, that's their choice... but I won't do that. TTBOMK Yeshua bar Yosef didn't kill anyone. But far too many people have claimed that Yeshua bar El told them to.
bluebell Posted October 20, 2015 Posted October 20, 2015 While I agree with the general premise, the Scriptures are not a smorgasbord buffet... we can't pick and choose what we like. If you have evidence that genocidal wars of Moses and Joshua were mistranslated, I'd be interested to see it. As i said earlier, i believe that they were less likely mistranslated and much more likely attributed to God when they weren't. I also don't believe that God condones the rape of His daughters either, even though it's a.o.k. with Him as far as the OT relates it. If you have a sister, mother, wife, or daughter, i'm guessing that you also don't believe those parts of the OT. And that your disbelief of them has nothing to do with you treating the scriptures like a 'smorgasbord'.
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