MiserereNobis Posted October 16, 2015 Posted October 16, 2015 It wasn't just Joshua. Moses did the same thing before Joshua, just as atrocious by today's standards. Moses is included in the above references. In fact, a lot of what Joshua did was because Moses commanded him, first having been commanded by God. So, do you think today's standards are wrong? Do you think that a skeptical eye looking at a wholesale slaughter of men, women, children (and animals!) is incorrect?
thesometimesaint Posted October 16, 2015 Posted October 16, 2015 It wasn't just Joshua. Moses did the same thing before Joshua, just as atrocious by today's standards. Moses is included in the above references. In fact, a lot of what Joshua did was because Moses commanded him, first having been commanded by God. Never said it was just Joshua of the Bible. The sad violent bloody history of this world is filled with them.
Sevenbak Posted October 16, 2015 Author Posted October 16, 2015 (edited) So, do you think today's standards are wrong? Do you think that a skeptical eye looking at a wholesale slaughter of men, women, children (and animals!) is incorrect?Today's standards are different, yet we hold ancient cultures to them, and I think that is wrong. God destroyed all flesh save Noah's family in a flood. Does that make him a wholesale slaughterer of men, women and children? Yes. He will kill millions, probably billions more at His coming, this time with fire. That again makes him a slaughterer of women and children. Political correctness shouldn't define God or his ways. No, I don't think Moses and Joshua were wrong in obeying the commandment of God in those mass killings. I don't understand all the whys, but I do understand their obedience. Edited October 16, 2015 by Sevenbak 1
Sevenbak Posted October 16, 2015 Author Posted October 16, 2015 Never said it was just Joshua of the Bible. The sad violent bloody history of this world is filled with them.True.
thesometimesaint Posted October 16, 2015 Posted October 16, 2015 (edited) delete Edited October 16, 2015 by thesometimesaint
Sevenbak Posted October 16, 2015 Author Posted October 16, 2015 (edited) Delete Edited October 16, 2015 by Sevenbak
bluebell Posted October 16, 2015 Posted October 16, 2015 Today's standards are different, yet we hold ancient cultures to them, and I think that is wrong. God destroyed all flesh save Noah's family in a flood. Does that make him a wholesale slaughterer of men, women and children? Yes. He will kill millions, probably billions more at His coming, this time with fire. That again makes him a slaughterer of women and children. In my opinion, that's different than God commanding men to personally slaughter the innocent.
bluebell Posted October 16, 2015 Posted October 16, 2015 Not translated correctly? Really? All of them? We don't have to understand God's ways, but we do have to understand they are NOT our ways. Deut. 20:16-1716 But of the cities of these people, which the Lord thy God doth give thee for an inheritance, thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth:17 But thou shalt utterly destroy them; namely, the Hittites, and the Amorites, the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites; as the Lord thy God hath commanded thee: Josh. 10:29-40 28 ¶And that day Joshua took Makkedah, and smote it with the edge of the sword, and the king thereof he utterly destroyed, them, and all the souls that were therein; he let none remain: and he did to the king of Makkedah as he did unto the king of Jericho.29 Then Joshua passed from Makkedah, and all Israel with him, unto Libnah, and fought against aLibnah:30 And the Lord delivered it also, and the king thereof, into the hand of Israel; and he smote it with the edge of the sword, and all the souls that were therein; he let none remain in it; but did unto the king thereof as he did unto the king of Jericho.31 ¶And Joshua passed from Libnah, and all Israel with him, unto Lachish, and encamped against it, and fought against it:32 And the Lord delivered Lachish into the hand of Israel, which took it on the second day, and smote it with the edge of the sword, and all the souls that were therein, according to all that he had done to Libnah.33 ¶Then Horam king of aGezer came up to help Lachish; and Joshua smote him and his people, until he had left him none remaining.34 ¶And from Lachish Joshua passed unto Eglon, and all Israel with him; and they encamped against it, and fought against it:35 And they took it on that day, and smote it with the edge of the sword, and all the souls that were therein he utterly destroyed that day, according to all that he had done to Lachish.36 And Joshua went up from Eglon, and all Israel with him, unto Hebron; and they fought against it:37 And they took it, and smote it with the edge of the sword, and the king thereof, and all the cities thereof, and all the souls that were therein; he left none remaining, according to all that he had done to Eglon; but destroyed it utterly, and all the souls that were therein.38 ¶And Joshua returned, and all Israel with him, to aDebir; and fought against it:39 And he took it, and the king thereof, and all the cities thereof; and they smote them with the edge of the sword, and utterly destroyed all the souls that were therein; he left none remaining: as he had done to Hebron, so he did to Debir, and to the king thereof; as he had done also to Libnah, and to her king.40 ¶So Joshua smote all the country of the hills, and of the south, and of the avale, and of the springs, and all their kings: he left none remaining, but utterly destroyed all that breathed, as the Lord God of Israel commanded. Joshua 11:10-15 10 ¶And Joshua at that time turned back, and took Hazor, and smote the king thereof with the sword: for Hazor beforetime was the head of all those kingdoms.11 And they smote all the souls that were therein with the edge of the sword, utterly destroying them: there was not any left to breathe: and he burnt Hazor with fire.12 And all the cities of those kings, and all the kings of them, did Joshua take, and smote them with the edge of the sword, and he utterly adestroyed them, as Moses the servant of the Lord commanded.13 But as for the cities that stood still in their strength, Israel burned none of them, save Hazor only; that did Joshua burn.14 And all the spoil of these acities, and the cattle, the children of Israel took for a prey unto themselves; but every man they smote with the edge of the sword, until they had destroyed them, neither left they any to breathe. Joshua 621 And they utterly destroyed all that was in the city, both man and woman, young and old, and ox, and sheep, and ***, with the edge of the sword.24 And they burnt the city with fire, and all that was therein: only the silver, and the gold, and the vessels of brass and of iron, they put into the treasury of the house of the Lord.27 So the Lord was with Joshua; and his fame was noised throughout all the country. Num. 21:33-3534 And the Lord said unto Moses, Fear him not: for I have delivered him into thy hand, and all his people, and his land; and thou shalt do to him as thou didst unto Sihon king of the Amorites, which dwelt at Heshbon.35 So they smote him, and his sons, and all his people, until there was none left him alive: and they possessed his land. Deut. 232 Then Sihon came out against us, he and all his people, to fight at Jahaz.33 And the Lord our God delivered him before us; and we asmote him, and his sons, and all his people.34 And we took all his cities at that time, and utterly destroyed the men, and the women, and the little ones, of every city, we left none to remain: Deut 32 And the Lord said unto me, Fear him not: for I will deliver him, and all his people, and his land, into thy hand; and thou shalt do unto him as thou didst unto Sihon king of the Amorites, which dwelt at Heshbon.6 And we utterly destroyed them, as we did unto Sihon king of Heshbon, utterly destroying the men, women, and children, of every city. Deut 20:16-1816 But of the acities of these people, which the Lord thy God doth give thee for an inheritance, thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth:17 But thou shalt utterly destroy them; namely, the Hittites, and the Amorites, the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites; as the Lord thy God hath commanded thee: Josh. 825 And so it was, that all that fell that day, both of men and women, were twelve thousand, even all the men of Ai.26 For Joshua drew not his hand back, wherewith he stretched out the spear, until he had utterly destroyed all the inhabitants of Ai.27 Only the cattle and the spoil of that city Israel took for a prey unto themselves, according unto the word of the Lord which he commanded Joshua.28 And Joshua burnt Ai, and made it an heap for ever, even a desolation unto this day. I think you overlooked this part of my post- "(or just not recorded correctly by the Israelites)" I think it is very likely that the Israelites did some bad things and blamed them on God.
Sanpitch Posted October 16, 2015 Posted October 16, 2015 I think you overlooked this part of my post- "(or just not recorded correctly by the Israelites)" I think it is very likely that the Israelites did some bad things and blamed them on God.Why even have the bible if we can't depend on what it says? What about the Earth Wide Flood, seems impossible to me, was that just some one writing about a myth? What about the poor guy who was stoned to death on God's order because he gathered wood on Sunday? Are they all just myths?
bluebell Posted October 16, 2015 Posted October 16, 2015 Why even have the bible if we can't depend on what it says? What about the Earth Wide Flood, seems impossible to me, was that just some one writing about a myth? What about the poor guy who was stoned to death on God's order because he gathered wood on Sunday? Are they all just myths?We aren't asked to rely only on the bible to find doctrinal truth. Being LDS, we don't accept the doctrines that the bible is perfect, or the only scripture. I agree that it does make things a little more complicated. But gaining spiritual maturity in recognizing truth is necessary, even if it's not very easy. Besides that, there isn't any doctrinal message in the slaughter of those opposed to the Israelites in the OT that makes it necessary for us to believe in it as a part of our salvation.
thesometimesaint Posted October 16, 2015 Posted October 16, 2015 (edited) Why even have the bible if we can't depend on what it says? What about the Earth Wide Flood, seems impossible to me, was that just some one writing about a myth? What about the poor guy who was stoned to death on God's order because he gathered wood on Sunday? Are they all just myths? A myth is not something not true, but a story to explain an event. IE; There probably was a itinerant preacher named Yeshua bar Yosef born some 2000 years ago in ancient Palestine. Whether he was the Son of God is a matter of belief. Because the Bible is a sectarian version of history. Sometimes it tells us what to do, and sometimes what not to do. We make the choice. A world wide flood, meaning covering the whole planet is a physical impossibility. A world wide flood as in how Noah saw it remains possible. A human being stoned to death by other human beings,and blaming God. You bet. Edited October 16, 2015 by thesometimesaint
Sanpitch Posted October 16, 2015 Posted October 16, 2015 A myth is not something not true, but a story to explain an event. IE; There probably was a itinerant preacher named Yeshua bar Yosef born some 2000 years ago in ancient Palestine. Whether he was the Son of God is a matter of belief. Because the Bible is a sectarian version of history. Sometimes it tells us what to do, and sometimes what not to do. We make the choice. A world wide flood, meaning covering the whole planet is a physical impossibility. A world wide flood as in how Noah saw it remains possible. A human being stoned to death by other human beings,and blaming God. You bet.The Bible says the whole earth covered: Genesis 7 19 And the waters prevailed exceedingly upon the earth; and all the high hills, that were under the whole heaven, were covered. 20 Fifteen cubits upward did the waters prevail; and the mountains were covered. 21 And all flesh died that moved upon the earth, both of fowl, and of cattle, and of beast, and of every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth, and every man: 22 All in whose nostrils was the breath of life, of all that was in the dry land, died. 23 And every living substance was destroyed which was upon the face of the ground, both man, and cattle, and the creeping things, and the fowl of the heaven; and they were destroyed from the earth: and Noah only remained alive, and they that were with him in the ark. "A world wide flood, meaning covering the whole planet is a physical impossibility. A world wide flood as in how Noah saw it remains possible." Could Noah or the writer of Genesis, I think Moses, know that it covered all the mountains with out having revelations? The JW Bible says it covered all the mountains up to fifteen cubits. How was that known? A person stoned to death, I think that was God's law according to the bible.
Gray Posted October 16, 2015 Posted October 16, 2015 The Bible says the whole earth covered: Genesis 7 19 And the waters prevailed exceedingly upon the earth; and all the high hills, that were under the whole heaven, were covered. 20 Fifteen cubits upward did the waters prevail; and the mountains were covered. 21 And all flesh died that moved upon the earth, both of fowl, and of cattle, and of beast, and of every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth, and every man: 22 All in whose nostrils was the breath of life, of all that was in the dry land, died. 23 And every living substance was destroyed which was upon the face of the ground, both man, and cattle, and the creeping things, and the fowl of the heaven; and they were destroyed from the earth: and Noah only remained alive, and they that were with him in the ark. "A world wide flood, meaning covering the whole planet is a physical impossibility. A world wide flood as in how Noah saw it remains possible." Could Noah or the writer of Genesis, I think Moses, know that it covered all the mountains with out having revelations? The JW Bible says it covered all the mountains up to fifteen cubits. How was that known? A person stoned to death, I think that was God's law according to the bible. The Bible is a human product, not a divine product. It is the first person account of the faith communities that wrote it, not the first person account of God.
Sanpitch Posted October 16, 2015 Posted October 16, 2015 (edited) The Bible is a human product, not a divine product. It is the first person account of the faith communities that wrote it, not the first person account of God. I'll certainly agree with that, it's just the writings of people's current beliefs at the time. I believe Moses wrote the Flood account hundreds of years after it happened, sounds like he was writing myths passed on through the years. Elder Tom Perry, said in conference years ago, from memory that, "we LDS are among those who believe Noah's flood covered the entire earth." Edited October 16, 2015 by Sanpitch
Zakuska Posted October 16, 2015 Posted October 16, 2015 (edited) I'll certainly agree with that, it's just the writings of people's current beliefs at the time. I believe Moses wrote the Flood account hundreds of years after it happen, sounds like he was writing myth pasted through the years. Elder Tom Perry, said in conference years ago, from memory that, "we LDS are among those who believe Noah's flood covered the entire earth."I watched a Nova Special the other night and it made a pretty good case that the Noah story was actually a rewritting of the Gilgamesh epic by the Israelites coming back from Babylon captivity. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2545494/Was-Noahs-Ark-ROUND-3-700-year-old-clay-tablet-reveals-boat-coracle-reeds-bitumen.html Something of Intrest and Food for thought. Jared said his boats where "tight like a dish". They think the Ark might have been "Round like a dish" because of the Gilgamesh story. Maybe Jareds boats were too? Pictures of Ancient Iraq "Round Boats".https://www.google.com/search?q=iraq+round+boat&safe=strict&espv=2&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ved=0CCUQsARqFQoTCKOvo-nRx8gCFRXrYwodM5AKbw&biw=1129&bih=755 Here is a write up of what researchers did just recently. They rebuilt a replica!http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2753211/Noah-s-Ark-revealed-Scaled-replica-based-4000-year-old-tablet-s-instructions-build-hand-India.html Edited October 16, 2015 by Zakuska
thesometimesaint Posted October 16, 2015 Posted October 16, 2015 (edited) The Bible says the whole earth covered: Genesis 7 19 And the waters prevailed exceedingly upon the earth; and all the high hills, that were under the whole heaven, were covered. 20 Fifteen cubits upward did the waters prevail; and the mountains were covered. 21 And all flesh died that moved upon the earth, both of fowl, and of cattle, and of beast, and of every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth, and every man: 22 All in whose nostrils was the breath of life, of all that was in the dry land, died. 23 And every living substance was destroyed which was upon the face of the ground, both man, and cattle, and the creeping things, and the fowl of the heaven; and they were destroyed from the earth: and Noah only remained alive, and they that were with him in the ark. "A world wide flood, meaning covering the whole planet is a physical impossibility. A world wide flood as in how Noah saw it remains possible." Could Noah or the writer of Genesis, I think Moses, know that it covered all the mountains with out having revelations? The JW Bible says it covered all the mountains up to fifteen cubits. How was that known? A person stoned to death, I think that was God's law according to the bible. The whole earth/world has alternative meanings in the Scriptures. IE; Did the Romans really go to ancient China, let alone to the America's and collect taxes? Yet that is what the NT says all the world to be taxed. Somehow I seriously doubt it. Moses, the presumptive author of the first five books of the Bible, lived thousands of years after Noah. Stories tend to change over time. Did you ever played telephone as a child.SEE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NDxH6Q3gL0Y/ I don't have a problem with Noah accurately telling what he saw. A limited albeit large regional flood. I know my Presentism is showing, but if that were to happen in 21st Century America the Law of the Land would have a much bigger say than the Law of God. Rightly so. Edited October 16, 2015 by thesometimesaint
ERayR Posted October 16, 2015 Posted October 16, 2015 So, do you think today's standards are wrong? Not for today.
ERayR Posted October 16, 2015 Posted October 16, 2015 In my opinion, that's different than God commanding men to personally slaughter the innocent. Why?
sethpayne Posted October 16, 2015 Posted October 16, 2015 Not for today. I didn't know you were a moral relativist, ERayR.
ERayR Posted October 16, 2015 Posted October 16, 2015 (edited) I didn't know you were a moral relativist, ERayR. Just holding up my end of the conversation. I think most people are little bit moral relativists. We all to some degree or another abhor killing but if someone or something were to threaten your life or the lives of your family and you had the means to kill it or them before they killed your or your family you would do it and feel justified in doing so. PS: Do you eat meat? Edited October 16, 2015 by ERayR
sethpayne Posted October 16, 2015 Posted October 16, 2015 Just holding up my end of the conversation. I think most people are little bit moral relativists. We all to some degree or another abhor killing but if someone or something were to threaten your life or the lives of your family and you had the means to kill it or them before they killed your or your family you would do it and feel justified in doing so. PS: Do you eat meat? Well, let's be clear about one thing. Killing in self defense or to feed one's family (hunting etc...) is quite different from torture, enslavement, and then killing. Not to mention feeding children to dogs. We are absolutely not talking about the same thing in any way whatsoever. Columbus killed, tortured and enslaved for one purpose and one purpose only: gold. I think we can all agree that no matter the circumstances or time period, torture, murder, and infanticide are *always* wrong. To do it for one's own personal enrichment is only further indication of Columbus' moral depravity. Ok ... maybe there is the extremely rare situation where things like waterboarding are appropriate in cases where we know someone has information that endangers lives. But even then, we wouldn't hack up children and feed them to animals in front of a captor in order to obtain that info. And yes, I love meat. And plants. Just like every living thing on this planet human beings only live because of death: plant or animal. But there are things we can do to be ethical about it. Like pushing for humane animal treatment etc. 1
carbon dioxide Posted October 16, 2015 Posted October 16, 2015 With or without the deliberate atrocities, the native Americans were doomed at any point any modest number of Europeans came over. They did not have the immunity to the European-born diseases, so millions, an estimated 90 percent of the civilization, perished, and likely a majority of their story and advancements lost to history. So if God would allow such a horrible genocide to be possible by accident, it makes me wonder what other things he might allow if they serve a higher and more eternal purpose.The native Americans were doomed anyway. The world was expanding. If the Europeans did not come to the Americans, it would have been the Chinese or Japanese or someone else. The natives would have been taken out by the diseases they carried. History is about one dominant group take over another group. The native Americans had a good run but their time was running out.
Gray Posted October 16, 2015 Posted October 16, 2015 I'll certainly agree with that, it's just the writings of people's current beliefs at the time. I believe Moses wrote the Flood account hundreds of years after it happened, sounds like he was writing myths passed on through the years. Elder Tom Perry, said in conference years ago, from memory that, "we LDS are among those who believe Noah's flood covered the entire earth." Moses is not an author of any of the books of the Bible, and may not have existed. Orthodox Mormonism takes most stories in scripture literally, I agree.
ERayR Posted October 16, 2015 Posted October 16, 2015 Well, let's be clear about one thing. Killing in self defense or to feed one's family (hunting etc...) is quite different from torture, enslavement, and then killing. Not to mention feeding children to dogs. We are absolutely not talking about the same thing in any way whatsoever. Columbus killed, tortured and enslaved for one purpose and one purpose only: gold. I think we can all agree that no matter the circumstances or time period, torture, murder, and infanticide are *always* wrong. To do it for one's own personal enrichment is only further indication of Columbus' moral depravity. Ok ... maybe there is the extremely rare situation where things like waterboarding are appropriate in cases where we know someone has information that endangers lives. But even then, we wouldn't hack up children and feed them to animals in front of a captor in order to obtain that info. And yes, I love meat. And plants. Just like every living thing on this planet human beings only live because of death: plant or animal. But there are things we can do to be ethical about it. Like pushing for humane animal treatment etc. Seth,Killing is killing and of course all killing is not equal but that concept is moral relativism. On this point it seems that you and I are not so different, we draw the line on what killing is acceptable and what is not and I wager your line and mine would not be so different. The difference between us is I recognize it as moral relativism and it seems you do not. When I was younger I used to hunt for meat and we used to butcher animals we had raised to eat. When the time came I recognized it was killing and never took that responsibility lightly. As a hunter I have never gone hunting for a trophy. Note I made the distinction between hunting for food and hunting for a trophy. Yes I am a moral relativist and I recognize it but then I see the need to draw lines of acceptability for almost anything we do. There are lines of acceptability for almost anything we do. A line that says this far you can go but no further. Life is learning and practicing staying on the right side of those boundaries.
sethpayne Posted October 16, 2015 Posted October 16, 2015 Seth,Killing is killing and of course all killing is not equal but that concept is moral relativism. On this point it seems that you and I are not so different, we draw the line on what killing is acceptable and what is not and I wager your line and mine would not be so different. The difference between us is I recognize it as moral relativism and it seems you do not. When I was younger I used to hunt for meat and we used to butcher animals we had raised to eat. When the time came I recognized it was killing and never took that responsibility lightly. As a hunter I have never gone hunting for a trophy. Note I made the distinction between hunting for food and hunting for a trophy. Yes I am a moral relativist and I recognize it but then I see the need to draw lines of acceptability for almost anything we do. There are lines of acceptability for almost anything we do. A line that says this far you can go but no further. Life is learning and practicing staying on the right side of those boundaries. You are right, ErayR. We probably are closer to agreement than I had thought. I appreciate your remarks about hunting and taking as a serious responsibility. THAT, IMO, is humane. I guess where we may still disagree is on the idea that killing = killing. Even the 10 commandments seem to make a distinction (looking at newer translations) when it says "Thou shalt not murder." In my view, "killing" and "murder" are two very separate things and indeed very distinct concepts. Yes, the end result is the same but the intention behind the act defines its nature. But I do see where you are coming from.
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