Columbus - Getting A Bad Rap?

[Sevenbak]

In light of Columbus day today, and given how vilified Columbus has become by so many in modern society, I thought it might be a good thing to start a thread about his contributions, history, deeds etc.

 

I'll start off with Joseph Smith's words, quoting Nephi.

 

1 Nephi 13:

12 And I looked and beheld a man among the Gentiles, who was separated from the seed of my brethren by the many waters; and I beheld the Spirit of God, that it came down and wrought upon the man; and he went forth upon the many waters, even unto the seed of my brethren, who were in the promised land.

 

13 And it came to pass that I beheld the Spirit of God, that it wrought upon other Gentiles; and they went forth out of captivity, upon the many waters.

14 And it came to pass that I beheld many multitudes of the Gentiles upon the land of promise; and I beheld the wrath of God, that it was upon the seed of my brethren; and they were   scattered before the Gentiles and were smitten.

 

 

Also, when Wilford Woodruff did the temple work for all the Founding Fathers and others in the St. George Temple, 4 prominent men were ordained High Priests posthumously, one of them Columbus.  Others being George Washington, John Wesley and Ben Franklin.

 

 

Thoughts on Columbus?  Good, bad, indifferent?

Edited October 12, 2015 by Sevenbak

[Sevenbak]

In a devotional by Elder Glen Rudd, he quotes Orson Hyde, who says is was non other than Moroni, who was the spirit who guided Columbus.

 

"He said that same angel was with Christopher Columbus and gave him deep impressions and dreams and visions respecting the new world. He said that same angel was with Columbus on the stormy deep. He guided his frail vessel to the desired haven, and he calmed the troubled elements."

 

http://www2.byui.edu/Presentations/transcripts/devotionals/2003_03_11_rudd.htm

 

 

 

 

And in Columbus's own words...

 

"...our Lord unlocked my mind, sent me upon the sea, and gave me fire for the deed. Those who heard of my emprise called it foolish, mocked me, and laughed. But who can doubt but that the Holy Ghost inspired me?"

 

 

(Jacob Wassermann, Columbus, Don Quixote of the Seas, pp. 19-20, 46)

Edited October 12, 2015 by Sevenbak

[thesometimesaint]

Christoforo Colombo; The man who didn't know where he was going, didn't know where he was once he got there, and did it all on government money.

Edited October 12, 2015 by thesometimesaint

[Sevenbak]

Christoforo Colombo; The man who didn't know where he was going, didn't know where he was once he got there, and did it all on government money.

 

Not meaning to get political, but that's actually from an old Democrat joke.

 

"They say that Christopher Columbus was the first Democrat. When he left to discover America, he didn’t know where he was going. When he got there he didn’t know where he was. And it was all done on a government grant."

[hagoth7]

In light of Columbus day today, and given how vilified Columbus has become by so many in modern society, I thought it might be a good thing to start a thread about his contributions, history, deeds etc.

 

I'll start off with Joseph Smith's words, quoting Nephi.

 

1 Nephi 13:

12 And I looked and beheld a man among the Gentiles, who was separated from the seed of my brethren by the many waters; and I beheld the Spirit of God, that it came down and wrought upon the man; and he went forth upon the many waters, even unto the seed of my brethren, who were in the promised land.

 

13 And it came to pass that I beheld the Spirit of God, that it wrought upon other Gentiles; and they went forth out of captivity, upon the many waters.

14 And it came to pass that I beheld many multitudes of the Gentiles upon the land of promise; and I beheld the wrath of God, that it was upon the seed of my brethren; and they were   scattered before the Gentiles and were smitten.

 

Thoughts on Columbus?  Good, bad, indifferent?

I've read an intriguing book written by Columbus.

 

Has the jury concluded that Columbus is the the traveler foretold by Nephi?

 

(There are others who made the journey before and after him.)

Edited October 12, 2015 by hagoth7

[thesometimesaint]

Not meaning to get political, but that's actually from an old Democrat joke.

 

"They say that Christopher Columbus was the first Democrat. When he left to discover America, he didn’t know where he was going. When he got there he didn’t know where he was. And it was all done on a government grant."

 

I didn't make it political.

 

To his dying day he thought he'd discovered a quicker water route to India. Even the name "Indians" took hold.

[rodheadlee]

It takes guts to take off into the unknown ocean in a little boat. 50 foot length over deck, It's not much bigger than my boat.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ni%C3%B1a

 

 

It takes guts to go off into the known ocean, with GPS and charts. Some of my charts are dated to the 1700s. The thing that is really dangerous is approaching a new uncharted shore.

Edited October 12, 2015 by rodheadlee

[ERayR]

Christoforo Colombo; The man who didn't know where he was going, didn't know where he was once he got there, and did it all on government money.

 

I am not so sure that the conventional interpretive wisdom is correct for several reasons.  My own reasoning of several bits of information I have come across I think he knew where he was going or trying to go.

[thesometimesaint]

I am not so sure that the conventional interpretive wisdom is correct for several reasons.  My own reasoning of several bits of information I have come across I think he knew where he was going or trying to go.

 

Chris wasn't stupid. He knew from the ancient Greeks that the earth was round and approximately 25,000 at the equator.

 

He thought(knew) he was going to the Orient. The western hemisphere just got in the way.

[hagoth7]

Chris wasn't stupid. He knew from the ancient Greeks that the earth was round and approximately 25,000 at the equator.

 

He thought(knew) he was going to the Orient. The western hemisphere just got in the way.

He also likely learned in his travels in the North Atlantic about sailors' accounts recounting much-earlier discoveries of land further west.

Edited October 12, 2015 by hagoth7

[ERayR]

Chris wasn't stupid. He knew from the ancient Greeks that the earth was round and approximately 25,000 at the equator.

 

He thought(knew) he was going to the Orient. The western hemisphere just got in the way.

 

He definitely wasn't stupid.  Did he really think he was going to the orient or was that simply how he sold it so he could get his financing?

[Traela]

Chris wasn't stupid. He knew from the ancient Greeks that the earth was round and approximately 25,000 at the equator.

 

He thought(knew) he was going to the Orient. The western hemisphere just got in the way.

Actually, he thought that the circumference was about 1/3 smaller than it actually is. Ferdinand and Isabella were willing to accept his bad math, because they wanted first shot at a western route to the Orient.

[ERayR]

He also likely learned in his travels in the North Atlantic of sailors' tales of much-earlier discoveries of land in the west.

 

And as his mother was Lombard the Lombard legends would likely have been common fare in his upbringing.

[bluebell]

Christopher Columbus was just a product of his time.  

 

His coming to the Caribbean was a disaster for the indigenous people-it wiped out whole groups and amounted to government sanctioned genocide.  There are reports on some of the islands of 7000 children dying in one year.  Their parents were dying in the mines and the children would starve to death.  We probably can't imagine the horror those people suffered in just a few decades.

 

Columbus practiced slavery in the name of God, feeling like it was his God-given right and privilege, and he deserves condemnation for his treatment of native americans.  But he was just like every other man from his culture so in that sense, he was just like everyone else.  He wasn't even much different than a lot of the Native American tribes, who also practiced slavery and could be very ruthless to their enemies.  They just couldn't do it on the same scale, and they didn't typically do it for the same reason.

[thesometimesaint]

Actually, he thought that the circumference was about 1/3 smaller than it actually is. Ferdinand and Isabella were willing to accept his bad math, because they wanted first shot at a western route to the Orient.

 

I've heard that, but I'm not convinced. I think he, and others, overestimated just how big Asia really is. I think it was bad geography more than bad math. Greed was and is a big motivator.

[Zakuska]

Interesting fact about Columbus.  He reports seeing a UFO in his journal.

 

1492, October 11, 10:00 PM: " Christopher Columbus and Pedro Gutierrez while on the deck of the Santa Maira, observed, "a light glimmering at a great distance." It vanished and reappeared several times during the night, moving up and down, "in sudden and passing gleams." It was sighted 4 hours before land was sighted, and taken by Columbus as a sign they would soon come to land. (From "The Life and Voyages of Christopher Columbus)

 

Read more here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1492_light_sighting

Edited October 12, 2015 by Zakuska

[jkwilliams]

The Spanish conquest of the Americas was in many ways brutal, greedy, and terribly destructive. That said, it's important to understand the context. The Moors (Muslim Arabs from North Africa) had conquered Spain in the 8th century (by 730 they were in the Pyrenees on the border with France). It took Spanish Christians more than 700 years to completely drive out the Moors from Spain. As the "reconquista" of Spain advanced, Spanish military leaders were given land grants, with power over the serfs, over the lands they captured. At the same time, Catholic missionaries worked hard to Christianize the local populations and erase the last vestiges of Islams. The Spanish finally defeated the last of the Moors in 1492.

 

While Columbus' "discovery" of the Americas was quite accidental (he simply miscalculated the circumference of the earth), the Spanish conquest of the Americas followed the predictable pattern set by the Reconquista in Spain: military and religious conquest went hand in hand. Military adventurers, such as Cortez and Pizarro and their subordinates, were extended land grants over the territories they conquered. At the same time, there was intensive effort to convert the natives under such priests as Bernardino de Sahagún and Junipero Serra. 

 

That said, it's hard to say that Columbus or any of the other conquistadores gets a "bad rap" for anything. Even if the introduction of European diseases hadn't decimated the local populations, Columbus and others ruled with an iron fist and did commit atrocities, killing many through forced labor and slavery. He was the first person to send slaves (Tainos) to Europe, though 40% died en route. He was eventually removed as governor and imprisoned, albeit temporarily, by Fernando II de Aragón for his brutality.

 

So, definitely not someone you would imagine would be in tune with the spirit, but then scripture is pretty clear that God often works through less-than-savory people to accomplish his purposes.

[sethpayne]

In light of Columbus day today, and given how vilified Columbus has become by so many in modern society, I thought it might be a good thing to start a thread about his contributions, history, deeds etc.

 

 

Thoughts on Columbus?  Good, bad, indifferent?

 

Columbus was a very very bad man.  He was removed from his government post in the New World for being too cruel.

 

A lot could be said about Columbus -- and how Columbus day is a a piece of propaganda trotted out by the Knights of Columbus last century -- but for me, the turning point came when I learned this:

 

http://www.mit.edu/~thistle/v9/9.11/1columbus.html

 

The tribute system, instituted by the Governor sometime in 1495, was a

simple and brutal way of fulfilling the Spanish lust for gold while

acknowledging the Spanish distaste for labor. Every Taino over the age

of fourteen had to supply the rulers with a hawk's bell of gold every

three months (or in gold-deficient areas, twenty-five pounds of spun

cotton); those who did were given a token to wear around their necks

as proof that they had made their payment; those who did not were, as

[Columbus's brother, Fernando] says discreetly "punished"-by having

their hands cut off, as [the priest, BartolomŽ de] las Casas says

less discreetly, and left to bleed to death.

    It is entirely likely that upwards of 10,000 Indians were

killed in this fashion alone, on Espa–ola alone, as a matter of

policy, during Columbus's tenure as governor. Las Casas'

Brev’sima relaci—n, among other contemporaneous sources, is also

replete with accounts of Spanish colonists (hidalgos) hanging Tainos

en masse, roasting them on spits or burning them at the stake (often a

dozen or more at a time), hacking their children into pieces to be

used as dog feed and so forth, all of it to instill in the natives a

"proper attitude of respect" toward their Spanish "superiors."

 

 

No man who wantonly murders innocent children and feeds them to dogs in front of their mothers should be celebrated, IMO.

[sethpayne]

Christopher Columbus was just a product of his time.  

 

 

 

Do you really believe that?  He cut off hands, fed hacked up children to dogs and more.

 

He was removed from his post for his cruelty.  So I don't think we can just wave our hands and say he was simply a product of his time.  Most Europeans, as I understand it, were not chopping up human beings as punishment for not gathering enough gold.

[thesometimesaint]

The Europeans weren't any better to non Christians, Moors, Pagans, Witches, Jews, and assorted Heretics.

[Zakuska]

Some intresting Columbus Quotes:

 

Writing to the Kind and Queen of Spain

 

YOUR HIGHNESSES, as Catholic Christians and Princes who love the holy Christian faith, and the propagation of it, and who are enemies to the sect of Mahoma [islam] and to all idolatries and heresies,resolved to send me, Cristóbal Colon, to the said parts of India to see the said princes ... with a view that they might be converted to our holy faith .... Thus, after having turned out all the Jews from all your kingdoms and lordships ... your Highnesses gave orders to me that with a sufficient fleet I should go to the said parts of India .... I shall forget sleep, and shall work at the business of navigation, so that the service is performed.

 

They ... brought us parrots and balls of cotton and spears and many other things, which they exchanged for the glass beads and hawks' bells. They willingly traded everything they owned... . They were well-built, with good bodies and handsome features.... They do not bear arms, and do not know them, for I showed them a sword, they took it by the edge and cut themselves out of ignorance. They have no iron. Their spears are made of cane... . They would make fine servants.... With fifty men we could subjugate them all and make them do whatever we want.

As soon as I arrived in the Indies, in the first island which I found, I took some of the natives by force, in order that they might learn and might give me information of whatever there is in these parts. And so it was that they soon understood us, and we them, either by speech or by signs, and they have been very serviceable.

Edited October 12, 2015 by Zakuska

[sethpayne]

The Europeans weren't any better to non Christians, Moors, Pagans, Witches, Jews, and assorted Heretics.

 

Great!  So let's celebrate genocidal killers for their inclusiveness!

[jkwilliams]

Do you really believe that?  He cut off hands, fed hacked up children to dogs and more.

 

He was removed from his post for his cruelty.  So I don't think we can just wave our hands and say he was simply a product of his time.  Most Europeans, as I understand it, were not chopping up human beings as punishment for not gathering enough gold.

 

Indeed. the account of De Las Casas leaves little doubt that it's not presentism that makes him seem cruel. His contemporaries thought so, too, such that he and his two brothers were removed from their posts and imprisoned based on complaints of their cruelty.

[thesometimesaint]

Great!  So let's celebrate genocidal killers for their inclusiveness!

 

I prefer to recognize them as flawed people. I'm not excusing their deplorable behaviors. Christoforo Colombo was a complex man. He held together a mutinous crew on a long and dangerous voyage. He added the New World to the European experience. which eventually allowed for many millions of people to be born and live here. Some thing for the Amerids which were technologically and culturally impossible to do. But he was also cruel beyond belief even for the Europeans of the time.

 

Let's not get seduced by the modern tall tales of pacifist, tree hugging, Hippie, "Indians" either.

SEE http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2001/06/0601_wireanasazi.html

Edited October 12, 2015 by thesometimesaint

[sethpayne]

 

Let's not get seduced by the modern tall tales of pacifist, tree hugging, Hippie, "Indians" either.

 

Ok.  Let's use Columbus' own description of the natives:

 

They have no iron or steel or weapons, nor are they capable of using them, although they are well-built people of handsome stature, because they are wondrous timid. … They are so artless and free with all they possess, that no one would believe it without having seen it. Of anything they have, if you ask them for it, they never say no; rather they invite the person to share it, and show as much love as if they were giving their hearts; and whether the thing be of value or of small price,

 

 

And just as an experiment I have re-written your statement and I'm curious if you agree with the modifications.

 

I prefer to recognize Cambodians as flawed people. I'm not excusing their deplorable behaviors. Pol Pot was a complex man. He held together a nation in turmoil and on the brink of war. He added 'genocide experience' to the South-east Asia. This eventually allowed for many thousands of people to flee for their lives often leaving family and property behind eventually to settle in some cushy Western country. Some thing for the Cambodians  that otherwise would have been  technologically and culturally impossible to do. But he was also cruel beyond belief even compared to mid-century European fascists.

Edited October 12, 2015 by sethpayne