sethpayne Posted October 12, 2015 Posted October 12, 2015 Ah, and what is truth in this context? Each individual has to figure that out and decide for themselves.
ttribe Posted October 12, 2015 Posted October 12, 2015 I am concerned for the OP. A brush that broad has to be extremely heavy and wielding it so indiscriminately has to put strain on one's back. Does anyone know the OP personally to make sure he/she has not "fallen and can't get up"? 3
Teancum Posted October 12, 2015 Posted October 12, 2015 (edited) I think it is important to differentiate between testimonies and truth claims. I know some testimonies may include truth claims, but not all do.So IMO we should remain skeptical of truth-claims but open to anyone's testimony. A testimony is an experience with one's chosen religion. That should be respected.I do not ever recall questioning someone's personal testimony though I bring up that many faith traditions testimonies conflict well then I am somehow vile. Edited October 12, 2015 by Teancum
sethpayne Posted October 12, 2015 Posted October 12, 2015 I do not ever recall questioning someone's personal testimony though I bring up that many faith traditions testimonies conflict well then I am somehow vile. Well, that you are vile has long-been a given, Teancum. You filthy apostate!
saemo Posted October 12, 2015 Posted October 12, 2015 Tell you what I'll stop believing in the apostasy and go with the pragmatic approach suggested here when you agree to accept Joseph as a prophet- for us. I have no problem with relativism, but you have to give up on your absolutism. You are just as absolutely sure we are wrong as you are sure you are right. Net gain- zeroWell yeah, if I thought Mormonism was right, I'd be a Mormon.You don't need my permission to believe anyone is a prophet. 2
KevinG Posted October 12, 2015 Posted October 12, 2015 If hypocrisy negated the truth there would be no truth to be found. 2
Gray Posted October 12, 2015 Posted October 12, 2015 The hypocrisy of anti-Mormons and progressive (regressive if you ask me) Mormons knows no bounds. On the one hand they ask beliving Latter-day Saints to simply accept their claims and demands based on the "lived experience" of women and gays etc. Yet on the other they consistently deny OUR lived experience of the True Gospel restored in the Latter-days. We KNOW God lives because of our lived experiences with the Holy Ghost. We KNOW Joseph Smith was a prophet because of the many blessings brought to our lives through that knowledge. So from now on when anyone asks me to accept their sin as legitimate simply because it is a "lived experience" I will simply reply by stating that my lived experience is different and must also be seen as true and legitimate. Not only that but my lived experience trumps theirs because God, and not the influence of Satan, is on my side. The more we can co-opt the propogandastic language of "progressives" the sooner we can turn the tables and start pushing back against the increasing harrassment, belittlement, and persecution of those with a testimony of the Restored Gospel. I'm a progressive Mormon, and I don't recall ever denying your lived experience. If it would help, I can do that. Let me know! 3
stemelbow Posted October 12, 2015 Posted October 12, 2015 The hypocrisy of anti-Mormons and progressive (regressive if you ask me) Mormons knows no bounds. On the one hand they ask beliving Latter-day Saints to simply accept their claims and demands based on the "lived experience" of women and gays etc. Yet on the other they consistently deny OUR lived experience of the True Gospel restored in the Latter-days. We KNOW God lives because of our lived experiences with the Holy Ghost. We KNOW Joseph Smith was a prophet because of the many blessings brought to our lives through that knowledge. So from now on when anyone asks me to accept their sin as legitimate simply because it is a "lived experience" I will simply reply by stating that my lived experience is different and must also be seen as true and legitimate. Not only that but my lived experience trumps theirs because God, and not the influence of Satan, is on my side. The more we can co-opt the propogandastic language of "progressives" the sooner we can turn the tables and start pushing back against the increasing harrassment, belittlement, and persecution of those with a testimony of the Restored Gospel. I question whether the problem here is you don't understand a progressive perspective or you really consider disagreement as "harassment, belittlement, and persecution". That seems unhealthy. The latter seems to be the biggest problem. It doesn't hurt that you totally misrepresent the other side to make a point. We can just say, that's not really my take. 3
SmileyMcGee Posted October 12, 2015 Posted October 12, 2015 (edited) The hypocrisy of anti-Mormons and progressive (regressive if you ask me) Mormons knows no bounds.On the one hand they ask beliving Latter-day Saints to simply accept their claims and demands based on the "lived experience" of women and gays etc. Yet on the other they consistently deny OUR lived experience of the True Gospel restored in the Latter-days. We KNOW God lives because of our lived experiences with the Holy Ghost. We KNOW Joseph Smith was a prophet because of the many blessings brought to our lives through that knowledge.So from now on when anyone asks me to accept their sin as legitimate simply because it is a "lived experience" I will simply reply by stating that my lived experience is different and must also be seen as true and legitimate. Not only that but my lived experience trumps theirs because God, and not the influence of Satan, is on my side.The more we can co-opt the propogandastic language of "progressives" the sooner we can turn the tables and start pushing back against the increasing harrassment, belittlement, and persecution of those with a testimony of the Restored Gospel.So...I think you're extrapolating your "lived experiences" beyond reason. I don't doubt that you've had said experiences, but i would argue that since you are human you are just assuming that the experiences are from God, the Holy Ghost, or that they tell you anything about Joseph Smith. Likewise, you are just assuming that God is on your side and that satan leads those who you don't like. whether mormon or not, dogma gives meaning to things we can't explain, but dogma is assumed, not known.In short, if people that oppose you are claiming certainty that likely can't be obtained, I wouldn't follow their lead. Edited October 12, 2015 by SmileyMcGee
thesometimesaint Posted October 12, 2015 Posted October 12, 2015 (edited) I don't know of any religion that says: We know we're false, but we believe it anyway". Edited October 12, 2015 by thesometimesaint 1
ALarson Posted October 12, 2015 Posted October 12, 2015 Good point! They know what's right in their heart and yet deny us the same privilegeCan you give an example of this happening on here? Who has denied you the privilege of your "lived experience" of the gospel?
BlueDreams Posted October 12, 2015 Posted October 12, 2015 Perhaps my point was not as clear as I had intended it to be. "Progressives" always tell us that the "lived experience" of being a woman, gay, transgender among other things is what establishes "truth" and we Mormons are ignoring the truth/experiences of those who agitate for doctrinal and policy changes. We cannot allow the truth of the Gospel to be drowned out by some "lived experience" while ignoring the "lived experience" of millions of beliving, faithful, LDS worldwide. That God lives, He called Joseph Smith as his Prophet, and we follow a prophet today. I am probably on the border of progressive mormon and "believing, faithful LDS"....they're not exactly separate camps so it's very possible. So this is all like whaaaaaa to me. I will assume, at this moment your "lived experience" is true within your paradigm, in the sense that it has felt like Progressives are insisting it trumps your faith. But I would posture that that's likely not their intent. It could be a number of natural human responses when they feel rebuffed by another individual with little consideration. Things like defensiveness or feeling voiceless. It may be less about you and more about several experiences with someone like you that shut down conversation and their lives. Now for myself, this feels ridiculous because I do believe the Gospel, that God lives, he called JS as a prophet, and that we follow a prophet today. But I'm not presumptuous enough to assume that that means I have universally covered everybody's experiences by believing this. These beliefs don't fully cover mine and the parts that do (the first 2) are not within my full comprehension. I believe that all experiences help refine our understanding of said points and help us move as a church to a better, more zion-like place in the future step by step. I need women, gays, transgendered folk, blacks, whites, latinos, asians, my neighbor down the street, the Hindi and the Buddhist, the catholic and the generational mormon. I need all experiences of God to refine my understanding of God. My conclusions will probably not be the same, some of the dialogue may be tense or conflicting of course, but I still need them. What you've written in this spot and your OP indicates that, yes, you are ignoring them by stereotyping them. And to me that does limit your understanding because you do not clearly see a child of God. I don't think their experience negates yours because they have found a couple of truths in their journeys but I don't think your experience necessarily trumps theirs just because you've come upon a few truths of your own. With luv,BD 3
KevinG Posted October 12, 2015 Posted October 12, 2015 The conclusion I can draw from this discussion is that Thanksgiving Dinner must be a load of laughs in some of your families.
rockpond Posted October 12, 2015 Posted October 12, 2015 The hypocrisy of anti-Mormons and progressive (regressive if you ask me) Mormons knows no bounds. On the one hand they ask beliving Latter-day Saints to simply accept their claims and demands based on the "lived experience" of women and gays etc. Yet on the other they consistently deny OUR lived experience of the True Gospel restored in the Latter-days. We KNOW God lives because of our lived experiences with the Holy Ghost. We KNOW Joseph Smith was a prophet because of the many blessings brought to our lives through that knowledge. So from now on when anyone asks me to accept their sin as legitimate simply because it is a "lived experience" I will simply reply by stating that my lived experience is different and must also be seen as true and legitimate. Not only that but my lived experience trumps theirs because God, and not the influence of Satan, is on my side. The more we can co-opt the propogandastic language of "progressives" the sooner we can turn the tables and start pushing back against the increasing harrassment, belittlement, and persecution of those with a testimony of the Restored Gospel. You are painting with an awfully broad brush here. I think many would consider me to be a progressive Mormon based on my beliefs. And yet, I sat on the stand yesterday and said "amen" to each testimony though many differ in style and substance than my own. I appreciate hearing their stories, their faith, and their love of God. If you are aware of some instance where one of these progressive or anti- Mormon folks claimed that their "lived experience" trumped yours, you ought to cite such and we could discuss it. But a broad, unfounded criticism of tens of thousands (if not hundreds of thousands) of people is not very useful. 2
Jeanne Posted October 12, 2015 Posted October 12, 2015 I just need to say first..I am exmormon. I am not anti-mormon. Like different pairs of shoes, I really have walked in some of your experiences..have any of you who would lump me as anti, walked in mine? 1
ERayR Posted October 12, 2015 Posted October 12, 2015 I'm curious, as to why believe your experience trumps the whole rest of the world?BTW, what you describe here, is how I see Mormons and the so-called great apostasy. It requires that the lived experience of faithful Christians, for thousands of years, be ignored, marginalized and/or explained away.So, maybe it's a human thing. For the exact same reason you think your experience trumps everybody else. 1
Tacenda Posted October 12, 2015 Posted October 12, 2015 I just need to say first..I am exmormon. I am not anti-mormon. Like different pairs of shoes, I really have walked in some of your experiences..have any of you who would lump me as anti, walked in mine?If I were an anti Mormon I wouldn't have lived in silence and in a state of crazy town for so long, years of it. No, I'd be shouting to the world to run from the church. Last night I told my husband I just want to email his family and tell them the truth about my disbelief. Tell them I haven't renewed my TR and he hasn't either and that's why we can't go to the temple here in a few weeks to celebrate my late FIL's birthday. But my husband doesn't want me to send the email, so we keep up the lie, as if I'm doing something sinister and wrong. Jeanne you are a definite life line for people like me. You're definitely not anti! Below is a letter from someone who lost their belief in the church and God, it might give some people more perspective. https://medium.com/@CharisseLStephens/a-voice-from-the-other-side-72b451a216bf A Voice From The Other Side If you’re LDS and someone tells you they’ve left the church, the best way you could respond to them is with the words,“I’m sorry.”Not as an apology, but as an acknowledgement that the person in front of you has very likely been through a lot of pain in this transition and they have, without exception, lost a lot.It is very possible they are grieving. And that shouldn’t be difficult to imagine, except that it is, I know.Try, though.Imagine your God had died.Imagine that everything he did for you, everything he felt for you, everything you felt for him, everything that he was in your life and meant is now gone.Imagine mourning the God that you, today, love so dearly. Imagine loving him as much as you love him and then losing him, entirely.It’s true that not all of us lose him entirely. Some can adapt to loving a God in a slightly different image, or, for some, a very different one. There are many who find spiritual homes elsewhere, but the God we worshipped as Mormons is still gone.For those of us who find ourselves in a universe that hasn’t changed and is yet wholly different from the one we knew, the one we grew up in, the one we counted on for eternity — there is a lot to grieve.So please. We know you’re probably grieving, too (or we should). We know you didn’t expect this, and even if you did, you hoped things would be different. We know you probably still hope we’ll come back. Some do. But please don’t pretend that our pain now isn’t real, that it isn’t important, or that somehow everything will work out and none of us will have to worry about it anymore.Please don’t act like our stories don’t matter. Please don’t insist that we silence ourselves for the sake of perpetuating denial or, worse, for maintaining relationships with family and friends — relationships that might suddenly seem conditional on our being the “good” (silent) kind of ex-Mormon.I do not mean you should be forced to sit and listen to someone degrade your life, your choices, your upbringing, your heritage, your ancestry, your story, your most cherished beliefs, or your God.Yes, some of us are angry — probably all of us are, at some point, for some span of time or other.But please don’t alienate us. Please don’t expect us to pretend to be LDS. Please don’t cut us out. Remember it was our life too, our choices, our upbringing, our heritage, our ancestry, our story, our most cherished beliefs.And our God.And now he is gone.Everything about this is hard — leaving and, on both sides, feeling like you’ve been left.But all I think I really want to ask is that you please — please remember we are mourning.And please, if you can, mourn with us. 1
mfbukowski Posted October 12, 2015 Posted October 12, 2015 Well yeah, if I thought Mormonism was right, I'd be a Mormon.You don't need my permission to believe anyone is a prophet.It wasn't about permission, it was about whether or not testimonies count as knowledge of the truth, and whose testimony trumps someone else. You missed the point.
mfbukowski Posted October 12, 2015 Posted October 12, 2015 So...I think you're extrapolating your "lived experiences" beyond reason. I don't doubt that you've had said experiences, but i would argue that since you are human you are just assuming that the experiences are from God, the Holy Ghost, or that they tell you anything about Joseph Smith. Likewise, you are just assuming that God is on your side and that satan leads those who you don't like. whether mormon or not, dogma gives meaning to things we can't explain, but dogma is assumed, not known.In short, if people that oppose you are claiming certainty that likely can't be obtained, I wouldn't follow their lead.If you think certainty is obtainable, you are a lot more certain about certainty than I am then. I just know that my best guess is better than your best guess because it is mine, and I came up with it.
mfbukowski Posted October 12, 2015 Posted October 12, 2015 (edited) Can you give an example of this happening on here? Who has denied you the privilege of your "lived experience" of the gospel?Seriously? Anyone who says testimony is worthless in the face of the facts, or that testimony could just be heartburn. Emotion is not to be trusted. Surely you have heard of those arguments? Like from every atheist alive? Those who do not believe in the credibility of religious experience? You have honestly not heard of such a thing? Edited October 12, 2015 by mfbukowski
iWriteStuff Posted October 12, 2015 Posted October 12, 2015 The hypocrisy of anti-Mormons and progressive (regressive if you ask me) Mormons knows no bounds. On the one hand they ask beliving Latter-day Saints to simply accept their claims and demands based on the "lived experience" of women and gays etc. Yet on the other they consistently deny OUR lived experience of the True Gospel restored in the Latter-days. We KNOW God lives because of our lived experiences with the Holy Ghost. We KNOW Joseph Smith was a prophet because of the many blessings brought to our lives through that knowledge. So from now on when anyone asks me to accept their sin as legitimate simply because it is a "lived experience" I will simply reply by stating that my lived experience is different and must also be seen as true and legitimate. Not only that but my lived experience trumps theirs because God, and not the influence of Satan, is on my side. The more we can co-opt the propogandastic language of "progressives" the sooner we can turn the tables and start pushing back against the increasing harrassment, belittlement, and persecution of those with a testimony of the Restored Gospel.I'd put it to you that the majority of the difficulty lies in the fact that their purpose in denying our experience is agenda-driven. They look to set themselves up as authorities on reality rather than accept God's wisdom. I don't think there is a middle ground because one wants God to reign in our lives and the other wants to seize control for themselves and claim all the power and glory. Golly, that sounds familiar.... I wouldn't adopt that tactic if it was the last one left in the playbook. Let God reign, let good prevail, let Truth stand. Be the witness of the truth, but don't play into their game. The minute you do, you lose.
Jeanne Posted October 12, 2015 Posted October 12, 2015 Thank you Tacenda.. I wish you peace on your journey that belongs just to you. Many hugs, Jeanne
ALarson Posted October 12, 2015 Posted October 12, 2015 Seriously? Anyone who says testimony is worthless in the face of the facts, or that testimony could just be heartburn. Emotion is not to be trusted. Surely you have heard of those arguments? Like from every atheist alive? Those who do not believe in the credibility of religious experience? You have honestly not heard of such a thing?I haven't seen that on here, but may have missed it? I do know that I haven't ever accused anyone of having heartburn when they've expressed they felt the spirit. I would never assume to know what they felt as this is very personal. I honestly have not seen that on here, but I have seen disagreements or strong opinions stated.
ALarson Posted October 12, 2015 Posted October 12, 2015 I really do not agree with the use of the word "trump" here. I know it was used in the opening post (so that's how that person feels), but most just believe what they believe. Of course, each person feels their beliefs are right for them. But to state that they trump everyone else's beliefs is a bit overstated, IMO. I think that most at least respect the right of others to have their own beliefs even if they don't respect or agree with those beliefs.
Mars Posted October 12, 2015 Posted October 12, 2015 I haven't seen that on here, but may have missed it? I do know that I haven't ever accused anyone of having heartburn when they've expressed they felt the spirit. I would never assume to know what they felt as this is very personal. I honestly have not seen that on here, but I have seen disagreements or strong opinions stated. i've had it said to me in person several times, read it as a tactic on those 'things to say to mormons to get them to stop believing their faith' style websites that routinely crop up in American Evangelical Christian websites, and i am fairly certain i've seen it asserted here but i couldn't point to a certain post. i have definitely had my experiences questioned by atheists (meant as a nominal label, not as a pejorative) whose worldview is such that there is no god, all arguments and experience with the divine are a priori dismissed as 'in your head.' all this because there is clearly no god with whom one can interact. ergo, the experience was conjured up by the believer. i have never seen you personally engage in it. but i have definitely seen and lived it.
Recommended Posts