Anti-Mormons And "progressive" Mormons Deny Our Lived Experience

[HappyJackWagon]

Baloney- false analogies.

 

Read Mars posts.  You care about people, they respond.  If they throw you off the porch, you stay away, but try once a year or so.  Everything changes eventually if they know you genuinely care.   They can always remove their names if they want to.

 

Sure you can invent hypothetical counter examples all day long but what works is caring about people.

You must not have read my original response to you very closely because I suggested that having a Bishop check in once a year is a good idea to monitor the situation. It has always been my experience that bishops do this with the DNC lists. This doesn't mean that you refuse to put them on a DNC list.

 

Previously you suggested that YW don't just stop by. It's not the program. If there's a YW in the home it is absolutely the program. So by refusing to honor a families request for no contact you are opening them up to a visit from priesthood group leaders & HT, RS leaders & VT, YW leaders and girls, YM leaders and boys, all of whom are trying to "love them back in to the church." 

 

The DNC list, as I've already explained, is a way for the bishop to manage the contact these families receive.

You may not like the examples I used to illustrate how bad the "I know better than you what you need" approach is, but it doesn't change the principle of how bad and disrespectful it is in practice.

[mfbukowski]

You must not have read my original response to you very closely because I suggested that having a Bishop check in once a year is a good idea to monitor the situation. It has always been my experience that bishops do this with the DNC lists. This doesn't mean that you refuse to put them on a DNC list.

Previously you suggested that YW don't just stop by. It's not the program. If there's a YW in the home it is absolutely the program. So by refusing to honor a families request for no contact you are opening them up to a visit from priesthood group leaders & HT, RS leaders & VT, YW leaders and girls, YM leaders and boys, all of whom are trying to "love them back in to the church."

The DNC list, as I've already explained, is a way for the bishop to manage the contact these families receive.

You may not like the examples I used to illustrate how bad the "I know better than you what you need" approach is, but it doesn't change the principle of how bad and disrespectful it is in practice.

No, not in practice. In your abstract hypothetical,examples possibly.

Yw do not know who is on the list anyway, and must be directed always who to visit.

There might be a repenting child molester in even an active home.

Your examples are fantasies

[HappyJackWagon]

No, not in practice. In your abstract hypothetical,examples possibly.

Yw do not know who is on the list anyway, and must be directed always who to visit.

There might be a repenting child molester in even an active home.

Your examples are fantasies

I'm not sure which church you're living in.

 

Inactive girl is on the rolls in the Beehive class. The class Presidency and the YW counselor discuss this in presidency meeting and decide to go out and invite this girl to conference, or a roller staking activity or whatever. They go because they don't know they shouldn't. Repeat this for every organization in the church.

 

But if you place them on a DNC list as they requested, the YW President would be aware from Ward Council discussions and could direct them appropriately. You can also place the DNC on their record so when people look up their address or phone number they can see that they shouldn't be contacted.

 

And you're right. There may be an offender living in the ward which would be another great reason to place the DNC on their contact info so people don't show up at his house with their little kids dropping of cookies for FHE or something similar.

 

Aside from calling my examples "fantasies" I haven't heard you address why the "I know what you need better than you do so I'm going to do it anyway" mentality isn't disrespectful and in violation of the person's agency.

[mfbukowski]

I'm not sure which church you're living in.

 

Inactive girl is on the rolls in the Beehive class. The class Presidency and the YW counselor discuss this in presidency meeting and decide to go out and invite this girl to conference, or a roller staking activity or whatever. They go because they don't know they shouldn't. Repeat this for every organization in the church.

 

But if you place them on a DNC list as they requested, the YW President would be aware from Ward Council discussions and could direct them appropriately. You can also place the DNC on their record so when people look up their address or phone number they can see that they shouldn't be contacted.

 

And you're right. There may be an offender living in the ward which would be another great reason to place the DNC on their contact info so people don't show up at his house with their little kids dropping of cookies for FHE or something similar.

 

Aside from calling my examples "fantasies" I haven't heard you address why the "I know what you need better than you do so I'm going to do it anyway" mentality isn't disrespectful and in violation of the person's agency.

I think I know now what this thread means when it says that progressives deny one's lived experience.

[ALarson]

I'm not sure which church you're living in.

 

Inactive girl is on the rolls in the Beehive class. The class Presidency and the YW counselor discuss this in presidency meeting and decide to go out and invite this girl to conference, or a roller staking activity or whatever. They go because they don't know they shouldn't. Repeat this for every organization in the church.

 

But if you place them on a DNC list as they requested, the YW President would be aware from Ward Council discussions and could direct them appropriately. You can also place the DNC on their record so when people look up their address or phone number they can see that they shouldn't be contacted.

 

And you're right. There may be an offender living in the ward which would be another great reason to place the DNC on their contact info so people don't show up at his house with their little kids dropping of cookies for FHE or something similar.

 

Aside from calling my examples "fantasies" I haven't heard you address why the "I know what you need better than you do so I'm going to do it anyway" mentality isn't disrespectful and in violation of the person's agency.

You're right that it really comes down to respecting someone's wishes or requests.  It's very presumptuous of another person to insist that they know what's best for another person and then continue to contact a member when they've asked for the opposite.  This is just common sense and courtesy as well as being respectful.

 

Friendships are entirely different and I think most know that on here (and examples have been given where DNCs have remained in touch with members who are their friends).

Edited October 15, 2015 by ALarson

[mfbukowski]

Ward councils discuss families and do not judge or make lists. Delicate cases are handled delicately without branding people.

[ALarson]

I think I know now what this thread means when it says that progressives deny one's lived experience.

I don't think that anyone is doubting the experiences that have been posted here.  There have been successes, but also some horrible failures.  I just think it's respectful to honor people's requests.  I'd imagine you'd feel the same way if anti's were dropping by to talk to you about what they believe or try to talk you out of attending church.  How long would it take you to ask them to not return?  It goes both ways and I would imagine that you'd hope they'd respect your request too.

[HappyJackWagon]

I think I know now what this thread means when it says that progressives deny one's lived experience.

I haven't questioned your lived experiences. I'm questioning your philosophy on how to interact with people who don't want contact and you still haven't addressed that.

[HappyJackWagon]

Ward councils discuss families and do not judge or make lists. Delicate cases are handled delicately without branding people.

Yes, and as they discuss a family with a YW, the bishop can indicate that the YW shouldn't be stopping by. Easy. The ward council isn't sitting around making a list. They're simply honoring those who don't want contact.

[mfbukowski]

Yes, and as they discuss a family with a YW, the bishop can indicate that the YW shouldn't be stopping by. Easy. The ward council isn't sitting around making a list. They're simply honoring those who don't want contact.

That is my point completely. No list. https://tech.lds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1622

[HappyJackWagon]

That is my point completely. No list. https://tech.lds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1622

But not every one is in ward council. How do they know they shouldn't take it upon themselves to "rescue" these families?

[jkwilliams]

But not every one is in ward council. How do they know they shouldn't take it upon themselves to "rescue" these families?

I have a friend who recently moved into a new ward with his family. He's not active, and when the bishop asked if he was willing to accept home teachers, he said no. A couple of months later, his wife was told that their phone number in the ward directory was wrong, so my friend looked it up online. His wife was listed as head of the household, and he had a separate entry with a padlock icon next to it, which could not be opened. He emailed the bishop, who said that was how they marked people as "no contact."

Sounds pretty close to being on a list to me.

[SmileyMcGee]

delete

Edited October 16, 2015 by SmileyMcGee

[Senator]

  How long would it take you to ask them to not return? 

About three pages.......

[Stargazer]

I have a friend who recently moved into a new ward with his family. He's not active, and when the bishop asked if he was willing to accept home teachers, he said no. A couple of months later, his wife was told that their phone number in the ward directory was wrong, so my friend looked it up online. His wife was listed as head of the household, and he had a separate entry with a padlock icon next to it, which could not be opened. He emailed the bishop, who said that was how they marked people as "no contact."

Sounds pretty close to being on a list to me.

 

That's clever!  How do you put that padlock on it again?

 

Before MLS, our ward used an asterisk after the head of household's name to indicate DNC.  Those in the know could take a ward list and be clear about who didn't want to see anyone from church.

 

I don't know why it is so bad to have some kind of indicator for those folks who just don't want contact.  I would like to reactivate everyone, seriously, but shouldn't we make some kind of effort to keep from unnecessarily riling these people up?  Currently, in our HP group the DNCs are all lumped into two home teaching routes, one for the really hardcore ones, and one for the others who are less touchy.  Someone in the group leadership tries to determine if they are still at their places of residence,about twice per year.  Those home teachers who have occasional personal incidental contact with a DNC have that DNC put on their HT route and are asked to not visit, just keep them in mind for when they see them from time to time.  These people are not exactly being home taught, but we respect their desires to be left alone.  Some DNCs are not as NC as others, of course.  Some of ours have agreed to be contacted once per year, and we usually do it during the stake's annual emergency drill.  And then we leave emergency prep materials with these particular DNCs.  I say respect these people's wishes, while politely trying to see just how far we can fellowship them.  Having a list does help with that, maybe.

Edited October 17, 2015 by Stargazer

[mfbukowski]

But not every one is in ward council. How do they know they shouldn't take it upon themselves to "rescue" these families?

Oh yeah.

 

No one does their home teaching but they will randomly visit someone they have never seen at church just for the heck of it without direction from their organization.

 

And just think of how horrible that would be if they did that.  They might actually make a new friend, or horrors of horrors, get thrown off the porch like the actual home teachers would be.

 

Just think!  The people who do not want to be contacted may tell someone else that they do not want to be contacted!!   How horrible is that?

 

DNC lists even where they exist are not circulated to general ward members and if they are, they have the obvious consequences of alienating those who get mis-characterized

 

Can we now stop coming up with bizarre possible scenarios?

 

It appears the leadership can be condemned for having lists and for not for having them.  What else is new?

[mfbukowski]

I have a friend who recently moved into a new ward with his family. He's not active, and when the bishop asked if he was willing to accept home teachers, he said no. A couple of months later, his wife was told that their phone number in the ward directory was wrong, so my friend looked it up online. His wife was listed as head of the household, and he had a separate entry with a padlock icon next to it, which could not be opened. He emailed the bishop, who said that was how they marked people as "no contact."

Sounds pretty close to being on a list to me.

And what system was that in?

 

The ward had their own program for ward lists?

[mfbukowski]

I don't think that anyone is doubting the experiences that have been posted here.  There have been successes, but also some horrible failures.  I just think it's respectful to honor people's requests.  I'd imagine you'd feel the same way if anti's were dropping by to talk to you about what they believe or try to talk you out of attending church.  How long would it take you to ask them to not return?  It goes both ways and I would imagine that you'd hope they'd respect your request too.

Oh I would love the antis to stop by.

 

JV's stop all the time and I invite them in, but they soon leave.  I just ask a few questions about why anyone should believe the bible at all, considering its history and they leave soon.

 

Actually I used to have some come from a local EV church and I welcomed them.  After about 15 minutes they left and never came back.  I actually went to their church to talk to their pastor and he made it about a half hour trying to convince me how wrong I was.

 

I told him to stop by anytime and he hasn't done it yet.  I also had some discussions with a Catholic priest who thought he knew a lot about Mormons.

 

He didn't and has not been back yet.

 

Got any?

Edited October 17, 2015 by mfbukowski

[Stargazer]

And what system was that in?

 

The ward had their own program for ward lists?

 

That's why I asked how they did that.  I've worked with MLS for years, and unless there's some secret feature they haven't told anyone about, that capability doesn't exist.

 

It might be home-grown software program, however.  That they have no business using, btw.

[Stargazer]

Oh I would love the antis to stop by.

 

Actually I used to have some come from a local EV church and I welcomed them.  After about 15 minutes they left and never came back.  I actually went to their church to talk to their pastor and he made it about a half hour trying to convince me how wrong I was.

 

I told him to stop by anytime and he hasn't done it yet.  I also had some discussions with a Catholic priest who thought he knew a lot about Mormons.

 

He didn't and has not been back yet.

 

Got any?

 

I always like the Jehovah's Witnesses to come by the house and chat, but I seem to be on the DNRB list.  (DNR = Do Not Ring Bell)

 

Maybe they're afraid I might convert them to be Mormons?  Sorry, I don't have that power.

[mfbukowski]

That's why I asked how they did that. I've worked with MLS for years, and unless there's some secret feature they haven't told anyone about, that capability doesn't exist.

It might be home-grown software program, however. That they have no business using, btw.

Exactly my thoughts.

Sounds bogus. Why do all that when SLC updates it automatically?

[Stargazer]

Exactly my thoughts.

Sounds bogus. Why do all that when SLC updates it automatically?

I have to say, however, that for all I know there may be a way to mark a record in such as way that makes it inaccessible on the website. I do know that there is supposed to be a way to make personal or family contact information on the Church website non-public, and maybe that's what is meant. It's not for marking DNC, however, it's for members who just don't want their contact information available online. Of course, that could include DNC as well, but that's not necessarily the intent.  It's supposed to mean "Private".

 

This may be what they encountered.  And it doesn't mean DNC, it means "Private".

Edited October 17, 2015 by Stargazer

[mfbukowski]

I have to say, however, that for all I know there may be a way to mark a record in such as way that makes it inaccessible on the website. I do know that there is supposed to be a way to make personal or family contact information on the Church website non-public, and maybe that's what is meant. It's not for marking DNC, however, it's for members who just don't want their contact information available online. Of course, that could include DNC as well, but that's not necessarily the intent. It's supposed to mean "Private".

This may be what they encountered. And it doesn't mean DNC, it means "Private".

If I was on the fence about removing my records and I knew everyone in the ward knew it, that would instantly put me over the edge

[ALarson]

Oh I would love the antis to stop by.

 

I don't know if you're married or have children and teenagers, but I doubt you'd like the antis dropping in to talk to them on a regular basis or contacting them often.  

[mfbukowski]

I don't know if you're married or have children and teenagers, but I doubt you'd like the antis dropping in to talk to them on a regular basis or contacting them often.  

Oh come on.

 

You think we don't discuss this stuff at home? 

 

What's the purpose of learning all this stuff if you don't inoculate your kids?  I have no fear of anti's and neither do they.

 

Sterling McMurrin said that he was never disillusioned because he was never illusioned in the first place.  We are all humans searching for the best model of God and our place in the universe and this is it.  But it is still a model.

 

The anti's don't know that theirs is a model also, just not as good and that is demonstrable if you know how.