Tacenda Posted October 9, 2015 Posted October 9, 2015 https://www.lds.org/church/leaders?lang=eng I thought I might see more diversity among the General Authorities, but not so much.
Robert F. Smith Posted October 9, 2015 Posted October 9, 2015 So in your estimation it's about demographics rather than a simple "This is who the Lord wanted"?The Lord had a plethora of choices available, but allowed the specific choices to be made by his already extant councils in SLC. He approved the selections, and they will likely do an excellent job. We need to disabuse ourselves of the notion that these were the only specific choices available. This is a very large Church now. The Lord has always managed to find 12 apostles, even when the demographic numbers were quite small. The quality has not diminished over the years only because there are always excellent choices, lots of them now, available to choose from.
Robert F. Smith Posted October 9, 2015 Posted October 9, 2015 Actually, wouldn't we say God planted his vinyard in Jackson County Missouri? People migrated away and then returned, right?Still doesn't explain the lack of diversity in top church leadership over nearly 200 years. Christianity was more diverse in 200 years than the church is now.I don't think so. The genetic diversity in top leadership is probably greater now than in early Christianity 200 years on -- mostly from a very narrow slice of Mediterranean peoples.
saemo Posted October 9, 2015 Posted October 9, 2015 I found this article to be an interesting summary of Elder Rendlund's life experience, as recounted by his niece: In the past, I can understand the perception that GAs were kind of a homogenous interfamilial blob of men formed in the Utah-LDS culture (although I suspect that it wouldn't be too hard to bust that stereotype). But seriously, once you get beyond "white" and "born in Utah", how can it be said that Elder Renlund's life experience is anything like any other Apostle's?Good story. However, this is a Utah story. Many of us are of Scandinavian ancestry. From the Encyclopedia of Mormonism:"GENERAL AUTHORITIES BORN IN SCANDINAVIA. Three native-born Scandinavians have become General Authorities of the Church. Anthon H. Lund, born in Aalborg, Denmark, became an apostle (1889) and counselor in the First Presidency (1903-1921). John A. Widtsoe, born at Dalöe, Island of Fröya, Norway, was an apostle (1921-1952). And Christian D. Fjeldsted from Sundbyvester, Copenhagen, Denmark, was a member of the seventy (1884-1905)." http://eom.byu.edu/index.php/Scandinavia,_the_Church_in 1
Stargazer Posted October 9, 2015 Posted October 9, 2015 (edited) A number of people I spoke with were surprised we did not have at least one of the new apostles from Central/South America or as a long shot from the African continent. I think that is to be expected when you are replacing 25% of the general members of the Quorum. I appreciate the life experience of Elder Rendlund but I would also appreciate an Apostle who really was not independently wealthy or successful in business and of color. I take the parable of the talents as a marvelous guideline for whom the Lord calls to administer His kingdom, which grows larger and more complex every day. I think it might be appropriate in this context to quote Elder Rasband, from the August 2003 General Conference: Jesus told the story of a master who gave each of his three servants a sum of money. The amounts were set according to each servant’s previously demonstrated capabilities. The man then left for a long time. When he returned, he asked each of these servants to report what he had done with the money. The first two servants revealed they had doubled his investment. “Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord,” was the master’s reply. From The Parable of the Talents. All three of these newly called members of the Twelve have proven time and time again that in all respects they could be trusted with a few talents, that they would loyally administer the small areas of the Kingdom which they were given to administer. At each stage they succeeded and were rewarded with more responsibility, which they also successfully administered -- they demonstrated that they could learn line upon line and precept upon precept to become what God wanted them to become. And the main point I am trying to get across to you is that they were not being REWARDED for their work (although to anyone who cares about a job well done, a job well done is its own reward), but were being LOADED down with more and more responsibility. There are tons of rich LDS who have succeeded well at business or have prospered in their chosen field of endeavor, AND who are spiritual giants as well. But you think the Lord should draw His Apostles from men who have failed in every business enterprise they have ever attempted? Men who have proven that they cannot administer even a smallish enterprise? I am personally acquainted with one of the members of the 1st Quorum of the Seventy. He and I served our missions in Germany at the same time, although I never had the opportunity to be one of his companions, or to work with him in the same district. Well, I take that back, he was one of the Assistants to the Mission President when I was assigned to labor in the mission city, so I saw him frequently enough. This man was the same age as the rest of us full-time missonaries, but he was already wise beyond his years. He was also very intelligent (he had a full-ride scholarship to BYU -- as a David O. McKay Scholar). But even with that he was humble, kind, friendly, unassuming (although he was very tall) and a spiritual giant and gospel scholar as well. Once I got acquainted with him I was quite frankly amazed by him. Later, after my mission I happened to be serving in the US Army in Germany, and was called to be the president of my serviceman's branch. Also serving as a serviceman's branch president was this Elder I've been describing. Due to our callings we had opportunities to meet at the same meetings and all, and I was not surprised to find that he had matured even more in the Gospel. He still spoke his mission language fluently, but he had also added Russian to his repertoire, and was working for Radio Free Europe/Radio Liberty as a foreign policy specialist. By the time he was called to the 2nd Quorum of the Seventy he had written a couple of scholarly books, obtained a PhD from Harvard, served as a bishop and as a stake president counselor and as an Associate Professor at BYU. Besides his mission and post-mission in Germany, he had also lived in Russia as an exchange student. Now let me compare and contrast Bruce D. Porter with Stargazer. Stargazer is plenty smart enough, but didn't try to excel in school so as to get any kind of scholarship. I have two Associate Degrees, and work as a lowly computer programmer. Now, I like programming computers, but I have deliberately passed up every opportunity to become any kind of supervisor or manager. I served as a branch president once, for a year, and as an Elder's Quorum President once. I think I did pretty good as a branch president, but I will gladly admit that I was not a very good EQP. Except for Cubmaster, that's the extent of my church leadership, and the extent of my professional life. I will also admit to have failed miserably in two attempts to start and run a business. Elder Porter is probably not a millionaire (but he might be, I just don't know), but neither am I. I am what some bankers call a "thousandaire". My net worth sucks. Now, in 1995 when the Lord needed a new member of the 2nd Quorum of the Seventy, he had a number of choices, among which were me and Bruce D. Porter. He picked Porter. Do you think He should have picked me, just for the sake of having a "normal Joe" in the 2Q70? If you do think he should have picked me, well, dude, I have a bridge I would like to interest you in buying. I do pray that God continues to call outstandingly successful men and women to serve in the leadership roles of this Church. Edited October 9, 2015 by Stargazer 1
Duncan Posted October 9, 2015 Posted October 9, 2015 I think their are tons of candidates that could easily serve in the 12 or 70 but the Lord already knows as per Jer 1:5, for reasons probably known to him, who he wants to serve in those positions. If they live up to it here then God will make it happen. I think about Pres. Hunter, a stake president in California. never lived in Utah or had any connection to the place but God knew where he was and what he wanted from him and called him to be an Apostle. In thinking about this issue about diversityI came across this scripture in Job 19 21 Have pity upon me, have pity upon me, O ye my friends; for the hand of God hath touched me. 22 Why do ye persecute me as God, and are not satisfied with my flesh?
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rewcox Posted October 9, 2015 Posted October 9, 2015 They'll get it taken down. I do wonder why there is so much spam on this site though.This is mild compared to some places.
stemelbow Posted October 9, 2015 Posted October 9, 2015 Dale was born to full Scandinavian immigrants who spoke no English when they first came to the U.S. in 1948/1950. All of the three oldest children, including Dale, spoke Swedish as their first language. Their father, my grandfather, was a construction worker, and they were very poor. • The entire family moved back to Scandinavia when Dale was about 10 to 13ish, where they spent time in Helsinki, Finland and Gothenburg, Sweden. They were fully immersed in Swedish culture there and went to Swedish speaking public schools. I have heard many stories about the meager resources they were living on there. • When the family came back to Utah, the children spoke no English and had little to no understanding of U.S. culture. They went through a great deal of adjustment. I can't quite tell why this doesn't make him one who was from Utah, to some extent. it sounds like he lived in Utah for some time before he was 10--most likely learning some English and some of US Culture, then moved for three years to Finland and Sweden before spending the rest of his teenage years in Utah? So it appears perhaps somewhere between 5 and 10 years of his young life was spent outside of Utah. I'm not particularly concerned with lack of diversity but I don't really take this as adding a great deal of diversity. I'm not sure too many members hail from Sweden, but we did have a Swedish rescue mission not too long ago. I think the point of wanting to see diversity is that youngsters who are black or from Africa or South America can feel empowered and feel like they are treated without feeling like they are talked down to or talked about in a patronizing way. I think that's a stronger feeling, or possibly so, when you're not white. I know my son, who is black, feels impressed when he see other black grownups occupying places of influence and authority. He just doesn't get to see that in the Church. And he notices. I get that the brethren are going to call who they feel most impressed with. And that probably includes people they've known for a great deal of time. They are they who are going to be in the brethren's thoughts and prayers. That's how this all works out, ti seems to me. Pres Monson probably hears a great deal from other Gen Authorities about who have impressed. It just so happens that those in consideration are all white American's or to a lesser degree Europeans. It'll probably be this way for a long time in the future. Though over half of the Church's population hails from outside the US, the power and authority is and has been centered among the people in the US and the mountain west. • When Dale was 19, he went on a full-time [LDS Church] mission to Sweden for 25 months where he was again completely immersed in Swedish culture. • In his late 20s, Dale was called to be the bishop of a newly-formed, inner-city, multi-cultural ward in Baltimore. (During this time he was also doing his medical residency and trying to support his wife who was in law school and going through chemotherapy for cancer). • For those who like to see strong women sharing their perspective, Dale's wife Ruth, is the real deal. In addition to raising an amazing daughter and excelling in her own dedicated church work, she rose to become a highly respected attorney and president of her law firm. In my family, it was understood that if something needed to be done in the world, just put Ruth on it and she will work miracles. She has been and will continue to be an amazing speaker, editor, supporter, and (if I know Ruth) a "not-so-subtle suggester" who will make Dale exponentially better in his work, and he knows it. • Dale and his wife have spent five of their last six years in Africa, where he served in the Africa Southeast Area Church presidency. He traveled extensively throughout his vast territory from Angola to Ethiopia to visit with people in extremely impoverished areas and circumstances. I have heard and read many stories about this time in their lives and the way Dale and Ruth fought to help people and grow the church there. Dale is not afraid to make bold decisions as he advocates for the needs of those he serves. And while most Church authorities in the area operate using only English, he was determined to learn French (the most predominant language in the area) so that he could effectively communicate with the people he served....' All that said he seems like a good guy and I fully support. No problems. But I also get the concerns regarding lack of diversity. Any white guy can take on diverse thought, and be really focused and concerned with everyone. Sure. But that doesn't mean lack of diversity means nothing. It can still mean something.
rewcox Posted October 9, 2015 Posted October 9, 2015 If a person is led by the Spirit, it doesn't matter.
omni Posted October 9, 2015 Posted October 9, 2015 The Lord had a plethora of choices available, but allowed the specific choices to be made by his already extant councils in SLC. He approved the selections, and they will likely do an excellent job. We need to disabuse ourselves of the notion that these were the only specific choices available.This is a very large Church now. The Lord has always managed to find 12 apostles, even when the demographic numbers were quite small. The quality has not diminished over the years only because there are always excellent choices, lots of them now, available to choose from.This seems like a very reasonable way to look at the situation. Is it possible that there were hundreds or perhaps thousands of men who could have been chosen as the new apostles? Did President Monson present the three names to the Lord in prayer and then receive confirmation from the Spirit that affirming his choices. Perhaps if TSM presented the names of three different men of color who also were qualified we'd have a more ethnically diverse quorum right now.I certainly don't believe TSM to be racist, but it's a natural human reaction to choose "colleagues" among those you are familiar with and are similar to you. I think this perspective allows for human influence along with divine approval when choosing new apostles. From a believing perspective, this could bethe best explanation for why there have been no prophets and apostles of color in the church's 185 year history.
thesometimesaint Posted October 9, 2015 Posted October 9, 2015 Yeah, but please don't. It's pointless. Jesus and his disciples were all jews. Of course at that time they didn't claim to be a global religion. They did go unto as much of the Roman world as they could. "Go Ye unto all the world". We're going unto all the world. IE; My son served his mission in Zimbabwe; Africa.
HappyJackWagon Posted October 9, 2015 Posted October 9, 2015 They did go unto as much of the Roman world as they could. "Go Ye unto all the world". We're going unto all the world. IE; My son served his mission in Zimbabwe; Africa."At that time" of Christ's ministry it was NOT a worldwide church. Not even close. They didn't go to the Romans until after Christ's death. (other than Roman's occupying their land). Now is a different story which is my point. In Christs day we would expect all of his disciples to be Jews based on proximity and limitations of travel, communication etc.Today the church truly is worldwide, yet the leadership in the top quorums is as diverse as during Christs day, when we would reasonably expect it to be different. Why are 100 of the last 100 apostles white? Because God chooses only white apostles even though an estimated 35% of the LDS church is not caucasion. We're not even talking about equal representation of having 1/3 of the leadership being non-caucasion. We're talking about not even 1 being ethnically diverse. It seems Utah provides the pool of leadership like Jerusalem did in Christ's day despite there being greater diversity in the membership. One has to wonder why.
alter idem Posted October 9, 2015 Posted October 9, 2015 I seem to recall something about "Go ye into all the world...". How is that not a global religion? And are we going to claim that Christianity hasn't spread to all the world? My point(lessness) is that God has historically planted his vineyard in certain spots. Just because there are branches in other parts of the world isn't to say that the roots aren't firmly planted somewhere specific. In Jesus' day, obviously Israel. In the day of the Restoration, obviously the USA. All that aside, does anyone have a favorite talk/devotional/interview from Elder Renlund? I'd love to gain some insight on his background/training/etc.I wish I'd taken notes, but several years ago, Elder Renlund presided at one of our Stake Conferences. His remarks made such an impression on me that I've remembered him since. He was so down to earth, and even shared his struggles when he was trying to be an active church member and still get through his residency (I think it was) and I remember being so impressed that he let us know he was not perfect, but clearly was striving for perfection. I was so happy to hear his name announced. Like many others, I'd hoped we would have at least one new apostle who was from another country, like South America, but that didn't happen and I have no problem with it, because if the Lord wants them to call a Hispanic or Asian etc., he'll inspire them to do so--it's just not what is needed right now, apparently. We don't know what the future holds, but I for one am certain that the Lord inspired the calling of these three men and they will serve him well. 1
Duncan Posted October 9, 2015 Posted October 9, 2015 I seem to recall something about "Go ye into all the world...". How is that not a global religion? And are we going to claim that Christianity hasn't spread to all the world? My point(lessness) is that God has historically planted his vineyard in certain spots. Just because there are branches in other parts of the world isn't to say that the roots aren't firmly planted somewhere specific. In Jesus' day, obviously Israel. In the day of the Restoration, obviously the USA. All that aside, does anyone have a favorite talk/devotional/interview from Elder Renlund? I'd love to gain some insight on his background/training/etc. He came here a few weeks ago for a mission tour and the missionaries LOVED it! I always think highly of the brethren and wives that come up here! hahhaha! 1
iWriteStuff Posted October 9, 2015 Posted October 9, 2015 "At that time" of Christ's ministry it was NOT a worldwide church. Not even close. They didn't go to the Romans until after Christ's death. (other than Roman's occupying their land). Now is a different story which is my point. In Christs day we would expect all of his disciples to be Jews based on proximity and limitations of travel, communication etc.Today the church truly is worldwide, yet the leadership in the top quorums is as diverse as during Christs day, when we would reasonably expect it to be different. Why are 100 of the last 100 apostles white? Because God chooses only white apostles even though an estimated 35% of the LDS church is not caucasion. We're not even talking about equal representation of having 1/3 of the leadership being non-caucasion. We're talking about not even 1 being ethnically diverse. It seems Utah provides the pool of leadership like Jerusalem did in Christ's day despite there being greater diversity in the membership. One has to wonder why.Jack, I can tell you're going to have a wonderful time following my posts and diligently disagreeing with all of them. Hope that's fun. I look forward to the day when apostles of color or ethnic diversity are chosen. I think that will be fun to watch. As it is, the ones we have are chosen by God and He is not the slightest bit racist. 2
Bee Sweet Posted October 10, 2015 Posted October 10, 2015 " The Apostle Pauls' conversion changed the way he looked upon his fellow beings. Having been raised a Jew, he was used to seeing the world divided between Jesus and Gentiles,but through the Atonement he understood that in Christ, " There I\s neither Jew nor Gentile, there is neither male nor female: for we are all one in Jesus Christ." Gal. 3:28 3
BTH&T Posted October 10, 2015 Posted October 10, 2015 " The Apostle Pauls' conversion changed the way he looked upon his fellow beings. Having been raised a Jew, he was used to seeing the world divided between Jesus and Gentiles,but through the Atonement he understood that in Christ, " There I\s neither Jew nor Gentile, there is neither male nor female: for we are all one in Jesus Christ." Gal. 3:28Great insight
Stargazer Posted October 10, 2015 Posted October 10, 2015 Jack, I can tell you're going to have a wonderful time following my posts and diligently disagreeing with all of them. Hope that's fun. Oh, you don't know the half of it, yet! You have much to look forward to, let me tell you. I look forward to the day when apostles of color or ethnic diversity are chosen. I think that will be fun to watch. As it is, the ones we have are chosen by God and He is not the slightest bit racist. Me, too. I especially will like how it will either drive the remaining blatant racists out of the Church or else cause them to reassess their attitudes. I'd prefer the latter, but will accept the former.
Storm Rider Posted October 11, 2015 Posted October 11, 2015 Yup, we do like to talk about not judging others and not being racists and tolerance, and all kinds of buzz words that bring a more enlightened approach to the terrible world and for sure that bad, old, Mormon church. Put a white man up and we immediately are able to stereotype that bugger. Why is it so surprising that a white man actually can be an individual with rather unique life experiences, thoughts, and set of abilities built on their personal life experiences? Why is it acceptable to be completely racist when it comes to a white man? Strange how that repeatedly plays out the same way in the progressive movements of the world. Somehow being a woman or being a person of color has some overwhelming quality that a white man could not understand, think of, and fulfill. Why? Because basically we are all racists and sexists - we don't really care about God calling individuals! We care about organizations that meet our personal standard or definition of what diversification is. Color is paramount - not caliber, quality, merit, or anything else - it is the color of my skin that is what qualifies me to a calling, job, or position. God tries to teach and no one listens or hears. All the while they berate against heaven because God is not making the world reflect his ignorant creatures' idea of perfection and right. 4
Russell C McGregor Posted October 13, 2015 Posted October 13, 2015 Oh, you don't know the half of it, yet! You have much to look forward to, let me tell you.Me, too. I especially will like how it will either drive the remaining blatant racists out of the Church or else cause them to reassess their attitudes. I'd prefer the latter, but will accept the former. Actually there's a third alternative, and I think it's the one they'll plump for: they'll say it's all just a PR exercise intended to fool the masses. In fact, I'd put real money on at least some of them having such an argument ready to go in case one (or more!) of the new apostles turned out not to be white.
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