Christian Responsibilty

[carbon dioxide]

 

What should the church do? Most people in europe now see these  people not as refugees but as migrants. Also, as perhaps millions of muslims enter europe, just how will these people adjust to european tolerance and values? From last year:

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2784809/Now-ISIS-clashes-spread-Europe-Riot-police-separate-hundreds-Kurds-Islamist-supporters-Germany-nine-killed-protests-Turkey.html

Apparently Sweden incidence of rape has increased dramatically over the past 40 years (1400%) to where it has the highest rate in Europe.  Far more than the USA 

 

"Forty years after the Swedish parliament unanimously decided to change the formerly homogenous Sweden into a multicultural country, violent crime has increased by 300% and rapes by 1,472%. Sweden is now number two on the list of rape countries, surpassed only by Lesotho in Southern Africa." http://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/5195/sweden-rape

 

Perhaps there will be a call to help out the Swedish women if it continues. 

Edited September 18, 2015 by carbon dioxide

[The Nehor]

Oh well did anyone say billions?  Certainly a million is paltry.  And how do you know what the church could or could not do?  Are you privy to its financial info?  

 

Yes, a mention of billions was made in the post I was responding to.

 

If a million is paltry go ahead and donate a million yourself.

 

If you want to delude yourself into thinking that the church has billions of dollars in liquid assets available for reallocation at a moment's notice you are welcome to delude yourself but don't expect anyone to rebut your absurd beliefs.

[Calm]

It is possible that rapes are being reported more. Among the countries rated as high in rape compared to others, most are developed countries with more likely to report rapes cultures. Some other countries don't have laws against a husband raping his wife, for example.

[carbon dioxide]

It is possible that rapes are being reported more. Among the countries rated as high in rape compared to others, most are developed countries with more likely to report rapes cultures. Some other countries don't have laws against a husband raping his wife, for example.

That could be some of it.  Sweden however would not be considered a developing country.  It has been developed for a long time. 

[Calm]

Right, developed countries often have higher reported rapes. Most of the highest one are developed, as I said above. Many of them appear to increase over the past years, but it can be hard to tell at times how much of this is actual increase and how much of it is an increase or change in reporting because of efforts to make reporting more likely.

[Calm]

"There have been several international comparisons made, placing Sweden at the top end of the number of reported rapes. However, police procedures and legal definitions vary widely across countries, which makes it difficult to compare rape statistics.[8][9][10][11] For example, Sweden reformed its sex crime legislation and made the legal definition of rape much wider in 2005,[3][4][8][12] which largely explains a significant increase in the number of reported rapes in the ten-year period of 2004-2013.[13][14] The Swedish police also record each instance of sexual violence in every case separately, leading to an inflated number of cases compared to other countries.[8][11][15] Additionally, the Swedish police have improved the handling of rape cases, in an effort to increase the number of crimes reported.[8][14][16][17]

Raised awareness and a shifting attitude of crimes against women in Sweden,[18] which has been ranked as the number one country in gender equality,[19] may also explain the relatively high rates of reported rape.[8][11][20]"

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_in_Sweden

[Calm]

http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-19592372

"In Sweden there has been this ambition explicitly to record every case of sexual violence separately, to make it visible in the statistics," she says.

"So, for instance, when a woman comes to the police and she says my husband or my fiance raped me almost every day during the last year, the police have to record each of these events, which might be more than 300 events. In many other countries it would just be one record - one victim, one type of crime, one record."

The thing is, the number of reported rapes has been going up in Sweden - it's almost trebled in just the last seven years. In 2003, about 2,200 offences were reported by the police, compared to nearly 6,000 in 2010.

So something's going on.

But Klara Selin says the statistics don't represent a major crime epidemic, rather a shift in attitudes. The public debate about this sort of crime in Sweden over the past two decades has had the effect of raising awareness, she says, and encouraging women to go to the police if they have been attacked.

The police have also made efforts to improve their handling of cases, she suggests, though she doesn't deny that there has been some real increase in the number of attacks taking place - a concern also outlined in an Amnesty International report in 2010.

"There might also be some increase in actual crime because of societal changes. Due to the internet, for example, it's much easier these days to meet somebody, just the same evening if you want to. Also, alcohol consumption has increased quite a lot during this period.

"But the major explanation is partly that people go to the police more often, but also the fact that in 2005 there has been reform in the sex crime legislation, which made the legal definition of rape much wider than before."

[Avatar4321]

I want to help and trust refugees, but we had 2 refugees in Boston a couple years ago that bombed our marathon with pressure cookers killing 3 and severely wounding dozens in a terrorist attack. I'm just worried allowing refugees into America will be allowing dangerous individuals into our country who will turn on us. I'm glad it's not my decision.

Dont let fear be the basis of any decision. We are to live by faith, not fear. It is by faith that miracles happen. It is by faith that men come to Christ. These refugees may come to know the Savior by extending a hand of love.

[Teancum]

Yes, a mention of billions was made in the post I was responding to.

 

If a million is paltry go ahead and donate a million yourself.

 

If you want to delude yourself into thinking that the church has billions of dollars in liquid assets available for reallocation at a moment's notice you are welcome to delude yourself but don't expect anyone to rebut your absurd beliefs.

Well there are. Few straw men above.

I saw the post you responded to. He did not suggest the church give billions.

A million is not a paltry sum for me personally and I hope you are bright enough that you understood my point. But just in case you aren't a million is paltry for a church that is certainly worth many billions. You and I have no idea how liquid the church is. I never suggested the church has billions in liquid assets. I would bet it has a few billion or more of marketable securities. But I am pretty confident it has many millions of liquidity. But you foolishly are stating I have a belief that is absurd that I never argued or said and that in and of itself is absurd.

[Storm Rider]

I don't think that I, as a Christian, need to respond to every crises as presented by the media; particularly those situations on the other side of the world from the US.  I think we need to make certain our brother and sister in our own communities are looked after because they are right before us and need our assistance.

 

The Arab immigrant issue that is garnering so much attention at present in the news is far more complex than is being presented on the news and far more than the average American knows or understand.  Governments around the Middle East did nothing while Assad killed and murdered his own people.  The world followed suit and did nothing.  This is an age old problem and the current situation is being used as a cover for many to enter Europe for economic reasons, not fear for their lives, on the whole.  No, I did not say that there are not true families and groups that are in need resulting from the wars and carnage of Assad's own government and the actions of Daesh, but these are the minority.

 

It would do our country good, and the good for world governments, to discuss national guidelines for immigration.  Does every state need to open their doors to anyone that wants to enter their country?  What exceptions should be made in emergencies?  Who should enter and how do you prove they fit the guidelines?  Why are illegal aliens accepted in countries?  How should illegal aliens be repatriated to their own country?  These are just some of the issues to be addressed, but they are only the ones on the top of my pointed head; I am sure there is a broad range of additional issues.

 

I support providing support IN country.  I think we need a much better international response when leaders grossly abuse their citizens in order to prevent tragedies.  No single nation, state, church, charitable organization can single-handedly fix this problem.  Working together on a national level allows us to directly impact assisting global catastrophes. 

[The Nehor]

Well there are. Few straw men above.

I saw the post you responded to. He did not suggest the church give billions.

A million is not a paltry sum for me personally and I hope you are bright enough that you understood my point. But just in case you aren't a million is paltry for a church that is certainly worth many billions. You and I have no idea how liquid the church is. I never suggested the church has billions in liquid assets. I would bet it has a few billion or more of marketable securities. But I am pretty confident it has many millions of liquidity. But you foolishly are stating I have a belief that is absurd that I never argued or said and that in and of itself is absurd.

 

No, a million dollars does not become paltry when you have billions in assets and nowhere near that in annual "revenue" (for lack of a better word). By that standard $100 should be a paltry sum to me and giving it would be meaningless.

 

I actually have a pretty good idea how liquid the assets of the church are and no, I'm not sharing how I know or what those figures are.

[why me]

Dont let fear be the basis of any decision. We are to live by faith, not fear. It is by faith that miracles happen. It is by faith that men come to Christ. These refugees may come to know the Savior by extending a hand of love.

At times fear can be necessary. However, many of the migrants are converting to christianity when they arrive to germany. But it may have to do with being granted asylum since being a christian from iraq would be grounds for political asylum in germany. It is the christians that face the most persecution as a group.

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3225014/How-Muslim-migrants-converting-Christianity-Germany-hundreds-boost-chances-winning-asylum.html

 

http://www.breitbart.com/london/2015/09/08/muslim-migrants-converting-to-christianity-to-improve-asylum-chances/

 

Sadly, they are converting for all the wrong reasons. But this does beg a question: It is obvious that they know that being a muslim it is not a threat where they come from and so, asylum is not an option. But by being a phoney christian, they may have more of a chance to get it. However, the real christians are still holed up in dangerous circumstance in iraq, unable to move out because the muslims will harm them or kill them.

 

Such is life turned upside down.

 

http://theweek.com/articles/548138/what-everyone-gets-wrong-about-persecution-christians-iraq

 

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/apr/15/middle-east-christians-islamic-persecution-iraq-war

 

The church should get some of these christians out and move them to  Utah. This is what the lds church should do.

Edited September 19, 2015 by why me

[The Nehor]

How about our Prophets and Apostles say something, take a stand, encourage us in what seems to be a critical crisis. Why do LDS leaders in what they say seem to generally ignore the world and talk about obedience, follow the prophet and other exclusive and parochial issues in general.

 

The Pope is eating the lunch of the men who claim to be God's Prophets, Seers and Revelators. 

 

Let the rocks start coming! 

 

Crises like this are a dime a dozen. Anyone who needs a prophet to tell them to help those in need after a hurricane is a moral imbecile. Same with this. Critics insult us for supposedly following the prophet in preference to all else (a blatant falsehood but that sure doesn't stop them). When the prophet gives exacting advice they complain that it is legalistic and not applicable to every situation and blah blah blah. When the prophet is silent and does not treat us like 8 year olds telling us we should help those in need they still complain.

 

It is almost as if they just hate the prophets no matter what they do....or maybe unless the prophet tells them exactly what they want to hear. Why don't they just admit they would rather cut out the middle men and just worship themselves?

[Meadowchik]

We are a quite small ward in France and we've seen several refugees supported in some way, who've come through in the last year or so, not from Syria, though.

Atleast three are still here and settling well.

They're lovely people with some heartbreaking stories.

[Teancum]

Crises like this are a dime a dozen. Anyone who needs a prophet to tell them to help those in need after a hurricane is a moral imbecile. Same with this. Critics insult us for supposedly following the prophet in preference to all else (a blatant falsehood but that sure doesn't stop them). When the prophet gives exacting advice they complain that it is legalistic and not applicable to every situation and blah blah blah. When the prophet is silent and does not treat us like 8 year olds telling us we should help those in need they still complain.

 

It is almost as if they just hate the prophets no matter what they do....or maybe unless the prophet tells them exactly what they want to hear. Why don't they just admit they would rather cut out the middle men and just worship themselves?

Sure there will always be a crisis of small or great magnitude in the world. But the rest of your post really is nothing more than a poor me rant and poor LDS church damned if we do damned if we don't tirade.

Look I am fine with the content of what LDS leaders preach even if at times I do not agree with it. They have a church to run, a flock to lead. So your criticism of my criticism is not accurate nor on point and really just seeks to dismiss the issue and say oh poor pitiful me and the LDS leaders.

My comments were really focused on the fact that this is all they typically preach. They rarely if ever concern themselves with the the major concerns and current events of the world unless it appears to be a moral issues like same sex marriage or a perceived threat to their religous freedom. Then you hear no end to it. This just seems odd an disappointing to me that the leaders of a world wide church the claims to be the church of Jesus Christ is not vocally and leadership wise a little more on the cutting edge of the current problem of humanity. The head of the biggest so called "apostate Christan" sect has them beat in spades on so many things.

But what do I know. I still participate in the church but really I am just a filthy apostate.

[Teancum]

We are a quite small ward in France and we've seen several refugees supported in some way, who've come through in the last year or so, not from Syria, though.

Atleast three are still here and settling well.

They're lovely people with some heartbreaking stories.

That is wonderful . I hope good LDS people and bishops locally where they see a need like this can help even by using fast offering funds and partnering with other local churches or organizations. We did that at times when I served as a bishop.

[why me]

That is wonderful . I hope good LDS people and bishops locally where they see a need like this can help even by using fast offering funds and partnering with other local churches or organizations. We did that at times when I served as a bishop.

Supporting several refugees is quite different than supporting several thousand migrants who just happen to get off the buses and trains. France is not a very good example at the moment. Jews are leaving the country out of fear because of the islamist threat, the national front is making headway in local and national elections, and jihadists have killed the staff of a cartoon magazine and shot up a muesuem with jewish patrons inside and also shot up a jewish supermarket. The tensions in france are quite tight at the moment. And I don't think that many french would welcome a few thousand more muslims from turkey. It is important to know just what is happening in europe at the moment as hundreds of thousands are waiting to enter at the borders of hungry etc. The continent cannot handle it. And a few dollars will not help. Perhaps a billion will do it. Or maybe two billiion. Or maybe more.

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/18/world/europe/a-belated-welcome-in-france-is-drawing-few-migrants.html

Edited September 19, 2015 by why me

[bcuzbcuz]

Ok fine, let them all in. Just don't be surprised if bad things start happening. In Germany a school had to change their dress code because the skirts the German high schoolers were wearing was angering the refugees so the girls were told not to wear skirts to school anymore so they wouldn't offend the refugees and so they would be a less likely target of rape by one of the refugees. So there's victim blaming right there. A german teenager wears a skirt so the refugee rapes her and somehow it would have all been prevented had she just worn long pants or an Islamic robe. The refugees should learn to control themselves.

Nonsense. First of all, who,what, where are your sources?

I found one source supposedly quoting a German schools letter to parents. It said, "Revealing tops or blouses, short shorts or miniskirts could lead to misunderstandings.”

Could the same thing not be said of any school in Utah? Name a school where "revealing tops, or blouses, short shorts or miniskirts" are not frowned upon.

I spent 38 years working as a teacher and principal in two different countries. In none of the schools would such clothing be accepted and it had nothing to do with "refugees". Students who came to school dressed inappropriately, whether male students wearing tank tops, or inappropriate pictures or statements on shirts or caps, or females with bare midriffs, short skirts, or revealing clothing, were sent home with the message that they were welcome back with an appropriate change of clothing. (As a side note, I worked in schools where gum chewing was considered a problem but the threat of weapons was non-existant)

[bcuzbcuz]

The Church could not have sent billions without selling off a huge portion of its assets and shutting down most of its normal operations.

How do you know this? Please show the numbers.

Apparently Sweden incidence of rape has increased dramatically over the past 40 years (1400%) to where it has the highest rate in Europe.  Far more than the USA 

 

"Forty years after the Swedish parliament unanimously decided to change the formerly homogenous Sweden into a multicultural country, violent crime has increased by 300% and rapes by 1,472%. Sweden is now number two on the list of rape countries, surpassed only by Lesotho in Southern Africa." http://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/5195/sweden-rape

 

Perhaps there will be a call to help out the Swedish women if it continues.

I live in Sweden. I served my mission here. I have lived here more than 20 years. Your statement is utter nonsense.

I doubt you will delve further into this issue, you've already stated your bias, but the definition of rape varies greatly by country.

Most of the countries from your list (from an ultra-conservative think tank, Gatestone Institute) have greatly varied definitions of what constitutes rape. In your own country the majority of states cannot agree on what defines rape. There are very few hinders to reporting rape in Sweden, for example a wife can charge rape against her husband if she has said no and he has intercourse with her anyway.

But the statistics you show are extremely misleading. Sweden has a very high rate of charges of rape (from the last year that charges and convictions can be compared, 2008) 5446 rapes reported, 203 convictions. That boils down to 0.0561% rape charges, 0.0021% convictions.

Compare those stats to your own country, where rape is under-reported.

[bcuzbcuz]

It is possible that rapes are being reported more. Among the countries rated as high in rape compared to others, most are developed countries with more likely to report rapes cultures. Some other countries don't have laws against a husband raping his wife, for example.

I agree

[bcuzbcuz]

We are a quite small ward in France and we've seen several refugees supported in some way, who've come through in the last year or so, not from Syria, though.

Atleast three are still here and settling well.

They're lovely people with some heartbreaking stories.

Thank you. That is exactly the kind of Christian behaviour that I think should be admonished.

[thesometimesaint]

Supporting several refugees is quite different than supporting several thousand migrants who just happen to get off the buses and trains. France is not a very good example at the moment. Jews are leaving the country out of fear because of the islamist threat, the national front is making headway in local and national elections, and jihadists have killed the staff of a cartoon magazine and shot up a muesuem with jewish patrons inside and also shot up a jewish supermarket. The tensions in france are quite tight at the moment. And I don't think that many french would welcome a few thousand more muslims from turkey. It is important to know just what is happening in europe at the moment as hundreds of thousands are waiting to enter at the borders of hungry etc. The continent cannot handle it. And a few dollars will not help. Perhaps a billion will do it. Or maybe two billiion. Or maybe more.

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/18/world/europe/a-belated-welcome-in-france-is-drawing-few-migrants.html

 

Germany is welcoming 800,000 refugees.

 

PS:

SEE

Edited September 19, 2015 by thesometimesaint

[why me]

Germany is welcoming 800,000 refugees.

 

PS:

SEE

Actually, it is the german leader who welcomed them to attone for germany's past.but now the border is closed in germany. Too many have arrived. Merkel is an interesting person. But she made a huge mistake and she knows it.

 

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/60264684-5af4-11e5-a28b-50226830d644.html#axzz3mCc0KMEm

 

http://www.wsj.com/articles/germany-feels-backlash-for-welcoming-migrants-1441553068

 

She caused a tragedy for many europeans who are now dealing with an uncontrolable situation. To make the offer to migrants to attone for germany's past seems just a little nuts. I think that the blowback will come sooner than later. Already, there are protests against the migrants. And they will get bigger. In some towns in croatia, the migrants outnumber the natives. Not good.

Edited September 19, 2015 by why me

[The Nehor]

Sure there will always be a crisis of small or great magnitude in the world. But the rest of your post really is nothing more than a poor me rant and poor LDS church damned if we do damned if we don't tirade.

 

It happens to be an accurate tirade.

[saemo]

I do believe that the pope is now sorry for his comments. I don't think that he expected the european doors to be open to host a few million migrants from muslim countries. However, he could do more to help the besieged christians in iraq and syria by offering such christians santuary in the vatican. I do believe that these would be classified as refugees and not as migrants.

http://www.gospelherald.com/articles/52275/20140821/catholic-church-aid-agency-launches-major-campaign-to-support-besieged-christians-in-iraq-and-syria.htm

These christians would never travel with the muslims to europe so they are still in danger. Can you also give a reference about your statement to videogamejunkie about the german dress code. So far the both of you have given no references.

http://www.dw.com/en/german-school-prohibits-revealing-clothing/a-18567124

Regarding Pope Francis, he has not encouraged anyone to become a refugee. His remarks are in response to the fact of people arriving in Europe with a need.

Your grasp of the Christian Iraq situation is naive, in the sense that you should discover what the Chaldean Bishop in Iraq is saying about the situation there.

Christian charity means addressing the need where it is. What is going on in Iraq, will not make headlines, because for one, the situation as it is calls for discretion. Unless what you are going for is a result where IS kills all Christians in Iraq? Or the Middle East to be emptied of Christians?

I also don't think you grasp what it means to be a Christian in these times. Christians are hated, maybe barely tolerated, by people in the First World, including some people and groups here in the USA. We aren't going anywhere.

Edited September 19, 2015 by saemo