Christian Responsibilty

[thesometimesaint]

Actually, it is the german leader who welcomed them but now the border is closed in germany. Too many have arrived. Merkel is an interesting person. But she made a huge mistake and she knows it.

 

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/60264684-5af4-11e5-a28b-50226830d644.html#axzz3mCc0KMEm

 

She caused a tragedy for many europeans who are now dealing with an uncontrolable situation. To make the offer to migrants to attone for germany's past seems just a little nuts.

 

Last I looked Germany is a republic with a elected Chancellor. Merkel is currently is that Chancellor. She has all the legal authority she needs to welcome as many refugees as she wants. I don't believe she made a mistake in welcoming them but implementation of that welcome may take a little longer than she anticipated. She did not cause the tragedy. The Assad government caused a Civil War in Syria. 

 

I didn't say a word about Germany's infamous past. I don't hold people responsible for the actions committed by others before they were adults. IE; Elder Uchtdorf was a child in NAZI Germany.

 

They are NOT migrants. They meet the legal definition of refugees. You keep using a term that is not applicable to these people.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Refugee

Edited September 19, 2015 by thesometimesaint

[why me]

Christian charity means addressing the need where it is. What is going on in Iraq, will not make headlines, because for one, the situation as it is calls for discretion. Unless what you are going for is a result where IS kills all Christians in Iraq? Or the Middle East to be emptied of Christians?

I also don't think you grasp what it means to be a Christian in these times. Christians are hated, maybe barely tolerated, by people in the First World, including some people and groups here in the USA. We aren't going anywhere.

At the moment they are risking extinction in Iraq. They are now putting up a fight and they are fighting against isis along with some muslim militias. But they will be extinct unless they get help. For many islamists the christians represent the west and the crusades. Plus, they were protected by saddam and by Assad. This puts them on a list. At the moment the christians are being protected by Assad. But if assad falls, they will fall with him. 

 

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-22270455

 

You need to educate yourself about their plight. They are the oldest christian group and they are under threat.

However we do have this:

 

http://news.yahoo.com/pope-francis-puts-syrian-refugee-family-115438511.html

 

I am glad that he is listening to me. And he is smart to take in a christian family. I would not trust muslim young men who just may be isis supporters.

Edited September 19, 2015 by why me

[why me]

 

 

I didn't say a word about Germany's infamous past. I don't hold people responsible for the actions committed by others before they were adults. IE; Elder Uchtdorf was a child in NAZI Germany.

 

They are NOT migrants. They meet the legal definition of refugees. You keep using a term that is not applicable to these people.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Refugee

Merkel herself said that is why germany needed to open the gates, to attone for germany's past. And she also knows that she bit off more than can chew, which is why she closed the border and is attempting to get other european countries to share her burden. In europe, they are being referred to as migrants since they lived in turkey before Merkel welcomed them to europe. These migrants are in very good shape and do not look hungry or malnourished. Just the opposite. I am on the front lines at the moment and have seen it upclose. In my town now, there are migrants everywhere. And the locals are not too happy. I am not in utah.

 

The distinction between refugee and economic migrant is also being elided. Many of the Syrians making this journey are fleeing war, but many others are fleeing camps in neighbouring Jordan or Turkey. The incentive to do this is growing, because life there is becoming harsher. As Michael Moller, the head of the UN’s Geneva office, warned this week, these millions will ‘get up and leave and come to Europe’ unless conditions in the camps improve. Iraqis are also joining in; extra flights are being laid on from Baghdad to Turkey as people go on the move in the belief that Merkel has created a window of migration opportunity that may not last. It is at this point that the distinction between refugee and immigrant, on which European law is based, breaks down.

 

http://www.spectator.co.uk/features/9628872/merkels-big-gesture-on-syrian-refugees-will-lead-to-many-more-deaths-at-sea/

 

You need to read more about the situation. Most are now migrants. And the young men coming from iraq may be isis or just young guys seeking a better life. Hopefully, there will be some men left to fight isis. I guess if I were in utah or idaho now, I just may have your opinion. But since I am now in europe for a time, I am seeing it up close and in real life. As a sidebar, the migrants have better phones than I do: top notch iphones or samsungs. Not bad.

Edited September 19, 2015 by why me

[saemo]

At the moment they are risking extinction in Iraq. They are now putting up a fight and they are fighting against isis along with some muslim militias. But they will be extinct unless they get help. For many islamists the christians represent the west and the crusades. Plus, they were protected by saddam and by Assad. This puts them on a list. At the moment the christians are being protected by Assad. But if assad falls, they will fall with him.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-22270455

You need to educate yourself about their plight. They are the oldest christian group and they are under threat.

However we do have this:

http://news.yahoo.com/pope-francis-puts-syrian-refugee-family-115438511.html

I am glad that he is listening to me. And he is smart to take in a christian family. I would not trust muslim young men who just may be isis supporters.

You made a comment about the Vatican becoming a destination for Iraq Christians OUTSIDE of Iraq, with an implication that the Pope should encourage people to become refugees. Now you changed to someone should help the situation INSIDE Iraq. And then threw in an example from Syria.

I know what is going on in Iraq. You don't seem to grasp what the Christian leaders, who live there, have said, but seem to believe you are the answer to their plight.

When you figure out what your argument really is, let me know. All I see is that you think all would be well, if only the Holy Father would pay attention to you.

Edited September 19, 2015 by saemo

[Teancum]

Deleted Post

Edited September 19, 2015 by Teancum

[Teancum]

It happens to be an accurate tirade.

 

 

Ummm not really but if it helps you to tell yourself that carry on.

[why me]

You made a comment about the Vatican becoming a destination for Iraq Christians OUTSIDE of Iraq, with an implication that the Pope should encourage people to become refugees. Now you changed to someone should help the situation INSIDE Iraq. And then threw in an example from Syria.

I know what is going on in Iraq. You don't seem to grasp what the Chrustian leaders, who live there, have said, but seem to believe you are the answer to their plight.

When you figure out what your argument really is, let me know. All I see is that you think all would be well, if only the Holy Father would pay attention to you.

No, I said that iraqi and syrian christians are being persecuted, raped and killed and sold into slavery and should have santuary in europe. More than the muslims. But they are still in iraq and in syria struggling to survive. If the jihadis take syria and occupy more iraqi land where the christians are, these christians will be killed or tortured. That was my point. The pope should take these people to the vatican and offer them sanctuary. But of course, there are just too many but he should offer the vatican for a few christian families.  I think that I linked this article about christians in iraq and syria earlier to you:

 

So should the west, instead of wringing its hands, help them to leave? As Father Bazi told me: “Open the gates, give my people visas.” Providing Christians with dignity and the right to life is now paramount. Not, as he says, preparing them once again to be sheep for slaughter.

 

 

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/apr/15/middle-east-christians-islamic-persecution-iraq-war

 

Sometimes I think that I am wasting my time. How should I read this priest's comments? He seems desparate. I think that I have used a lot of references to prove my points. It is just not my opinion.

Edited September 19, 2015 by why me

[saemo]

No, I said that iraqi and syrian christians are being persecuted, raped and killed and sold into slavery and should have santuary in europe. More than the muslims. But they are still in iraq and in syria struggling to survive. If the jihadis take syria and occupy more iraqi land where the christians are, these christians will be killed or tortured. That was my point. The pope should take these people to the vatican and offer them sanctuary. But of course, there are just too many but he should offer the vatican for a few christian families. I think that I linked this article about christians in iraq and syria earlier to you:

So should the west, instead of wringing its hands, help them to leave? As Father Bazi told me: “Open the gates, give my people visas.” Providing Christians with dignity and the right to life is now paramount. Not, as he says, preparing them once again to be sheep for slaughter.

Well,then,,you just argued against yourself. As I said, when you get it figure out.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/apr/15/middle-east-christians-islamic-persecution-iraq-war

Sometimes I think that I am wasting my time. How should I read this priest's comments? He seems desparate. I think that I have used a lot of references to prove my points. It is just not my opinion.

So, you argue against yourself? The Vatican should take refugees, but now it's ok if they don't because there is not enough room?

As I said, you are naive of the situation in Iraq, and present one side. The Chaldean Bishop there had been asking for the Iraqi Christians to stay while simultaneously asking world governments, particularly the USA who invaded Iraq, to protect religious freedom in Iraq. We didn't. We left Iraq and Iraqi Christians and other religious minorities to the wolves. http://www.aina.org/news/20120619160647.Him Iraqi and Syrian Christians see that there is a plot to force them out, effectively emptying the two countries of all Christians. They don't see this as a good idea, and so many stay. Your argument is still insisting that they should be refugees. Well, they don't want to be refugees, they want to live where they are in freedom.

Iraqi Christians tried to stay, but the bombimg of a church that killed 58 people pushed most of the Christians still living in Baghdad, to leave. Pope Francis never encouraged Christians in Iraq to leave, but asked more than once for the governments of the West to protect religious freedom in Iraq and Syria. Seems our governments and our people don't have the desire to help the people where they are.

Personally, while I certainly believe we should help the refugees, Muslim and Christian, I see the in-the-spotlight media response of Western governments and people, as trying to atone for a great failure.

I won't go into what I think about the Obama administration response in all of this, other than, our president is either a coward or a sociopath, either one lack a sense of responsibility, or empathy.

Edited September 19, 2015 by saemo

[why me]

So, you argue against yourself? The Vatican should take refugees, but now it's ok if they don't because there is not enough room?

Personally, while I certainly believe we should help the refugees, Muslim and Christian, I see the in-the-spotlight media response of Western governments and people, as trying to atone for a great failure.

I won't go into what I think about the Obama administration response in all of this.

Well, it is obvious that the vatican can't take  all the christians who wish to leave. But they can offer a example by taking in some of them. That was my point. Obama has ignored the plight of christians in these countries and so has the west. Even when they were being raped, there was no offer of sancturary from the president. Just the opposite.

 

http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2015/09/stunning-obama-administration-deports-persecuted-chaldean-christians-fleeing-isis/

 

I could not find this anywhere in the mainstream media.

Edited September 19, 2015 by why me

[saemo]

Well, it is obvious that the vatican can't take all the christians who wish to leave. But they can offer a example by taking in some of them. That was my point. Obama has ignored the plight of christians in these countries and so has the west. Even when they were being raped, there was no offer of sancturary from the president. Just the opposite.

http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2015/09/stunning-obama-administration-deports-persecuted-chaldean-christians-fleeing-isis/

I could not find this anywhere in the mainstream media.

Shockingly, we are in agreement.

I should add, the Republicans who are usually all over Obama, in opposition, remain silent. I'm just as fed up with them as I am with Obama.

Edited September 19, 2015 by saemo

[The Nehor]

Ummm not really but if it helps you to tell yourself that carry on.

 

Very hackneyed and cliched attempt at a burn. Please try harder in the future.

[why me]

Shockingly, we are in agreement.

 

Miracles do happen. Enjoy the mass tomorrow.

[halconero]

Alma 26

23 Now do ye remember, my brethren, that we said unto our brethren in the land of Zarahemla, we go up to the land of Nephi, to preach unto our brethren, the Lamanites, and they laughed us to scorn?

24 For they said unto us: Do ye suppose that ye can bring the Lamanites to the knowledge of the truth? Do ye suppose that ye can convince the Lamanites of the incorrectness of the traditions of their fathers, as stiffnecked a people as they are; whose hearts delight in the shedding of blood; whose days have been spent in the grossest iniquity; whose ways have been the ways of a transgressor from the beginning? Now my brethren, ye remember that this was their language.

25 And moreover they did say: Let us take up arms against them, that we destroy them and their iniquity out of the land, lest they overrun us and destroy us.

26 But behold, my beloved brethren, we came into the wilderness not with the intent to destroy our brethren, but with the intent that perhaps we might save some few of their souls.

------

Alma 27

22 And it came to pass that the voice of the people came, saying: Behold, we will give up the land of Jershon, which is on the east by the sea, which joins the land Bountiful, which is on the south of the land Bountiful; and this land Jershon is the land which we will give unto our brethren for an inheritance.

23 And behold, we will set our armies between the land Jershon and the land Nephi, that we may protect our brethren in the land Jershon; and this we do for our brethren, on account of their fear to take up arms against their brethren lest they should commit sin; and this their great fear came because of their sore repentance which they had, on account of their many murders and their awful wickedness.

24 And now behold, this will we do unto our brethren, that they may inherit the land Jershon; and we will guard them from their enemies with our armies, on condition that they will give us a portion of their substance to assist us that we may maintain our armies.

-----

“I will tell you all that your faith, religion, and profession of religion, will never save one soul of you in the Celestial Kingdom of our God, unless you carry out just such principles as I am now teaching you. Go and bring in those people now on the plains. And attend strictly to those things which we call temporal, or temporal duties. Otherwise, your faith will be in vain. The preaching you have heard will be in vain to you, and you will sink to Hell, unless you attend to the things we tell you.”

“When those persons arrive I do not want to see them put into houses by themselves; I want to have them distributed in the city among the families that have good and comfortable houses; and I wish all the sisters now before me, and all who know how and can, to nurse and wait upon the new comers and prudently administer medicine and food to them. To speak upon these things is a part of my religion...

“The afternoon meeting will be omitted, for I wish the sisters to go home and prepare to give those who have just arrived a mouthful of something to eat, and to wash them and nurse them up. You know that I would give more for a dish of pudding and milk, or a baked potato and salt, were I in the situation of those persons who have just come in, than I would for all your prayers, though you were to stay here all the afternoon and pray. Prayer is good, but when baked potatoes and pudding and milk are needed, prayer will not supply their place on this occasion; give every duty its proper time and place. …

“Some you will find with their feet frozen to their ankles; some are frozen to their knees and some have their hands frosted. … We want you to receive them as your own children, and to have the same feeling for them. We are their temporal saviors, for we have saved them from death.”

-----

There is our Christian responsibility. Yes it entails danger. If 20,000 lives are saved, even at the cost of one Jihadist entering in I would consider it worth the cost. We were once as they were, chased out of home and country. We relied on the help of others taking us in such as those at Quincy, Illinois or by Alexander Doniphan. We even had our own violent religious extremists, as evident at the Mountain Meadows Massacre. If anything, Mormons should be some of the most empathetic and ready to serve and donate to those leaving their homes due to violence and religious persecution (moderate Sunnis, Shias, Yazidis and Kurds are the highest killed group by ISIS).

Donating to the humanitarian fund is good. Prayers are good, but I believe more is needed, and not necessarily from Church Headquarters. The church has advocated on the Mormon channel that we get involved at the local level. We should participate in local refugee committees, befriend a local refugee family, and help them feel connected and integrated.

Edited September 19, 2015 by halconero

[halconero]

It is possible that rapes are being reported more. Among the countries rated as high in rape compared to others, most are developed countries with more likely to report rapes cultures. Some other countries don't have laws against a husband raping his wife, for example.

My sentiments exactly. It's the same reason for the uptick in instances of autism since the 90's. On the recommendation of medical professionals and scientific study the criteria for diagnosing autism was broadened and the idea of the autism spectrum was disemminated.

It's also why those who bring up the high use of psychotropic medication in Utah as inferring something about the church and its members may be way off base. It could simply mean that Utahns are more prone to disclosing symptoms and mental illness than the rest of the country. It may signify a tendency to over prescribe by doctors. An increase in rape statistics might indicate an increase in a willingness to disclose, the inclusion of spousal rape, etc.

[Robert F. Smith]

................................................................

I won't go into what I think about the Obama administration response in all of this, other than, our president is either a coward or a sociopath, either one lack a sense of responsibility, or empathy.

It has really made little difference which yokel was in the White House, Bush or Obama.  Bush created the current debacle by destroying Iraq based on false intel claims of weapons of mass destruction.  This has destabilized the entire region, leaving a power vacuum for ISIS to fill, and Obama has dragged his feet in response -- leading to millions of refugees.  None of this needed to  happen.  Now that it has, the reverberating consequences will be with us all for many years.

 

Lesson:  A stitch in time saves nine.  It would have cost us far less and have been less of a threat to our national security to have simply continued our policy of boxing in Saddam Hussein (we had a no-fly zone and a very good embargo).

 

Europe could profit by all of this, however.  A very low birthrate in Europe means that migrants fill a void (just as they have been doing in the US and Canada), which is required to keep their economies booming.  Germans and Swedes are getting elderly, and young Germans & Swedes just don't have babies.  Immigrants are absolutely essential.  Who are these Muslim immigrants currently on the road into Europe?  They are the Syrian middle class.  Families who need jobs and peace.  Will absorption be difficult?  Yes, but it will eventually be O.K.  A blessing even.

[bcuzbcuz]

It has really made little difference which yokel was in the White House, Bush or Obama.  Bush created the current debacle by destroying Iraq based on false intel claims of weapons of mass destruction.  This has destabilized the entire region, leaving a power vacuum for ISIS to fill, and Obama has dragged his feet in response -- leading to millions of refugees.  None of this needed to  happen.  Now that it has, the reverberating consequences will be with us all for many years.

 

Lesson:  A stitch in time saves nine.  It would have cost us far less and have been less of a threat to our national security to have simply continued our policy of boxing in Saddam Hussein (we had a no-fly zone and a very good embargo).

 

Europe could profit by all of this, however.  A very low birthrate in Europe means that migrants fill a void (just as they have been doing in the US and Canada), which is required to keep their economies booming.  Germans and Swedes are getting elderly, and young Germans & Swedes just don't have babies.  Immigrants are absolutely essential.  Who are these Muslim immigrants currently on the road into Europe?  They are the Syrian middle class.  Families who need jobs and peace.  Will absorption be difficult?  Yes, but it will eventually be O.K.  A blessing even.

My wife and I both volunteer time working with the current and past waves of refugees in Sweden. We both think your opinions display insight and understanding of this challenge of folk masses WALKING across Europe, hoping to find a country that will welcome them and offer hope for their families. Europe survived the flood of immigration after WWII. It will survive these new changes, both culturally and economically.

We are both outraged with the policies of Hungary , but also with the policies that forbid refugees from flying to their new homes. Since Syrian refugees cannot go to embassies in Syria, nor gain or process any papers in their homeland that would facilitate their attempts to be secure, we think that Sweden and Germany, along with many other Euro zone nations, should provide mini embassies along the routes that would process the papers of the refugees. Bottom line, our hearts and homes are open to refugees of families, single men and parentless children.

[Teancum]

Very hackneyed and cliched attempt at a burn. Please try harder in the future.

 

 

Nehor

 

Someday you may understand that what you think you know you don't and maybe your hard line approach will soften and you may realize that things are not as simple and your simpleton approach would demonstrate.  I hope for your sake it does not all crumble down around you.

Edited September 19, 2015 by Teancum

[bcuzbcuz]

-----

There is our Christian responsibility. Yes it entails danger. If 20,000 lives are saved, even at the cost of one Jihadist entering in I would consider it worth the cost. We were once as they were, chased out of home and country. We relied on the help of others taking us in such as those at Quincy, Illinois or by Alexandrr Doniphan. We even had our own violent religious extremists, as evident at the Mountain Meadows Massacre. If anything, Mormons should be some of the most empathetic and ready to serve and donate to those leaving their homes due to violence and religious persecution (moderate Sunnis, Shias, Yazidis and Kurds are the highest killed group by ISIS).

Donating to the humanitarian fund is good. Prayers are good, but I believe more is needed, and not necessarily from Church Headquarters. The church has advocated on the Mormon channel that we get involved at the local level. We should participate in local refugee committees, befriend a local refugee family, and help them feel connected and integrated.

I'm warmed by your comments. I agree completely.

[bcuzbcuz]

This article shows true compassion for our fellow man.

http://www.vancouversun.com/health/generations+boat+people+years+apart/11375355/story.html

Two generations of boat people, 40 years apart

Refugees who fled Vietnam in the ’70s band together to help Syrians

The three Vietnamese men, all in their 60s, meet for dinner twice a year. One recent evening in Burnaby, they discussed the news coming out of Syria: rickety boats, desperate people fleeing a war zone and bodies washing up on distant beaches.

They knew they had to help. For the men, who were among the 60,000 Vietnamese refugees taken in by Canada in the late ’70s and early ’80s, such scenes represent a painful chapter in the past that can be overcome, but never forgotten.

Hundreds of thousands of Vietnamese from the country’s south fled the advancing Communists in the weeks leading up to the fall of Saigon on April 30, 1975. They made perilous journeys by boat to surrounding countries such as Malaysia, Indonesia, Thailand and Hong Kong, thus earning the moniker “boat people.” The United Nations estimates that for every Vietnamese refugee who reached safety, another drowned. Those who made it were later resettled in other countries, including the U.S., France, Australia and Canada.

Dr. Soma Ganesan, now Vancouver Coastal Health’s director of psychiatry, and Minh Ngoc Vu, an entrepreneur who founded a successful national chain of Vietnamese restaurants, were among them. Hop Phan, who opted not to leave and nearly starved to death in a hard labour camp, followed 10 years later.

Because they understand what it is to be boat people seeking refuge, they cannot stand idly by while Syrians suffer, Phan explains, handing over a homemade flyer displaying pictures of Vietnamese refugees on boats in 1975 next to Syrian refugees on boats in 2015. The text is all in Vietnamese, but the flyer advertises a fundraising event for Syrian refugees called Boat People For Boat People.

“Think about yourself 20, 30, 40 years ago,” it implores.Ganesan, who founded a mental health clinic for immigrants and refugees that is unique in Canada, remembers well the day he was forced to make the painful decision to leave his home and the pediatric hospital where he worked.

It is the reason, 40 years later, he still cannot listen to Christmas carols without having panic attacks.

In the early months of 1975, the American medical instructors at the hospital where Ganesan worked in Saigon explained authorities would play Christmas music on the American radio station as a signal to evacuate if defeat at the hands of the Communists became imminent.

“Finally when the war is right at the border of Saigon ... we began to listen to the American station, and they played Christmas carols,” says Ganesan. He, and many other south Vietnamese had no idea the Americans had withdrawn their military and the country was defenceless.

“I still didn’t believe it,” he says, shaking his head. “During Christmas season, I wish I don’t listen to that, because it’s still very fresh in my mind.”Phan watched in sadness as all his friends fled the country by boat, but opted not to join them because “nowhere is better than home,” he explains. “I knew right away I’d made a mistake.”

As a member of the south Vietnamese navy, the Communists promptly threw Phan into a “re-education” camp as a prisoner of war, at age 25. There, he was forced to do hard labour and fed just enough to keep him alive.

“We lived on three kilograms of rice for a month. That means we have ... about this much rice a day,” he says, cupping his hands to make a small well.

He was forced to scavenge for food.

“Everything moving is good for protein ... like a worm, a spider, whatever.”

His family was allowed to visit once a year, for half an hour.

“We spent half of that time crying and just look(ing) at each other,” he said, breaking down in tears.

Because there were authorities present, they could not even have an honest conversation. He said things like “‘I’m very happy here. I’m healthy. Don’t worry about me.’ All lies,” Phan recalls, adding that the letters he wrote to family were also read by the authorities.

Phan was released after three years, but he was a pariah in his own country. The Communist government stripped him of citizenship, made him check in regularly with police, would not let him work and forbid his children from attending school. Unable to live under such conditions, he tried to escape by boat, but was captured and returned to the camps for another three years.

He had family in Vancouver who had come with the first wave of boat people, and they sponsored him after he was released from the camps for the second time.Ganesan was lucky. Some of the Vietnamese Communist officials who had taken over the hospital respected his work, and arranged him safe passage to Singapore, where he stayed for a month in a refugee camp. He was then allowed briefly into India, where his father was from, and then moved on to France.

Ganesan decided to come to Canada because this country would allow him to sponsor his mother, grandmother and sister, who he’d left behind in Vietnam. He was sponsored by a group of Vietnamese doctors in Montreal and a church group in Coquitlam. Having learned French in Vietnam using a Canadian textbook that was all about life in Montreal, where the bulk of Vietnamese refugees settled, Ganesan was surprised to learn he’d be coming to Vancouver, a city he had never heard of.

“I still remember when I was about to get the visa to come to Canada and I showed it to people who worked in the hospital in France. One of the nurses there said ‘Oh, beautiful British Columbia.’ And I said ‘What is it?’” he laughs, adding that he only understood the phrase when he came to B.C. and saw the licence plates.

For Ganesan, who did not speak English when he arrived in 1981, it was a humbling start to life in a new country. A friend got him a job driving a forklift in a scrap metal yard in New Westminster. He had never done manual labour.

“I worked as a doctor, my family was very well-to-do,” he said. “And my friend was the same ... He was an agricultural engineer, but he worked there driving forklifts and collecting copper.”

Ganesan got help writing his resume and sent it to all the hospitals. He was offered a nursing assistant position at Mount Saint Joseph that paid significantly less than what he earned at the metal yard, but he accepted it as a way back into his field. As his English got stronger, he challenged the medical exams at the University of B.C. and was able to go straight into the four-year psychiatry program. He came up with the idea of opening a mental health clinic for immigrants while still a resident. He went on to become the head doctor at Riverview Hospital in Coquitlam and co-founded the Vancouver Association for the Survivors of Torture.Both Ganesan and Phan say Canada could be doing more to help Syrian refugees in need of resettlement. The country’s current commitment is to take in 11,300 Syrians by the end of 2017, compared with 60,000 Vietnamese refugees the country welcomed in the early 1980s.

The security concerns cited by the government around letting in so many refugees are overblown, says Phan. There may be a few “bad apples,” maybe even some Islamic State sympathizers, but Canada has strong laws in place allowing authorities to deal with any offenders quickly, he adds.

Phan also believes most refugees, like himself, do not want to be a burden on Canadian taxpayers.

“If I am rich, my family is happy. If I go to collect welfare ... my family is poor. They don’t want that,” says Phan, who became an autobody technician and is now retired. “They deserve a second chance.”

Ganesan, whose career has involved listening to the stories of refugees and helping them cope with their trauma, wants Canadians to understand that most are in this country as a last resort. Many try to stay in their own country as long as possible, and spend years displaced in their home country or a neighbouring one.

“For several years they live without a future, they don’t even know what will happen to them. They keep on having hope that the day will come that they will return home,” Ganesan said.

When they arrive, they need a safe place to stay and a welcoming community, he says. They need English classes and for their children to go to school. Only once these basics are in place, he says, can they even begin to deal with the loss.

“The loss of their background, the loss of their culture, the loss of their family and a loss of their status ... that loss continues to linger on in their lives in the first few years of settlement and we need to deal with that.”

[halconero]

One of my favourite quotes is by Edward Murrow, in his piece against Senator McCarthy:

"We will not walk in fear, one of another. We will not be driven by fear into an age of unreason, if we dig deep in our history and our doctrine, and remember that we are not descended from fearful men."

Just as Murrow asked us not to confused the (real) threat of external communism with the (perceived) threat of internal communism, we should not confuse the real threat of ISIS with the Islamist boogie man. I don't doubt there are terrorists trying to infiltrate groups coming in, but if such a fear truly paralyzes us from acting as our religion, wisdom, and moral sense dictates then terrorism has already won. Of course I want this done in a sustainable, secure manner. I also want more than is being done right now. Bring them in from the plains.

Deuteronomy 26 (a thanksgiving prayer at the temple):

"5 And thou shalt speak and say before the Lord thy God, A Syrian ready to perish was my father, and he went down into Egypt, and sojourned there with a few, and became there a nation, great, mighty, and populous:

6 And the Egyptians evil entreated us, and afflicted us, and laid upon us hard bondage:

7 And when we cried unto the Lord God of our fathers, the Lord heard our voice, and looked on our affliction, and our labour, and our oppression:

8 And the Lord brought us forth out of Egypt with a mighty hand, and with an outstretched arm, and with great terribleness, and with signs, and with wonders:

9 And he hath brought us into this place, and hath given us this land, even a land that floweth with milk and honey."

God once helped a Syrian, Abraham and his children, escape from oppression into a foreign land. He looked on them with mercy in their suffering. He'll do so again, and we should help.

Edited September 20, 2015 by halconero

[saemo]

It has really made little difference which yokel was in the White House, Bush or Obama.  Bush created the current debacle by destroying Iraq based on false intel claims of weapons of mass destruction.  This has destabilized the entire region, leaving a power vacuum for ISIS to fill, and Obama has dragged his feet in response -- leading to millions of refugees.  None of this needed to  happen.  Now that it has, the reverberating consequences will be with us all for many years.

 

Lesson:  A stitch in time saves nine.  It would have cost us far less and have been less of a threat to our national security to have simply continued our policy of boxing in Saddam Hussein (we had a no-fly zone and a very good embargo).

 

Europe could profit by all of this, however.  A very low birthrate in Europe means that migrants fill a void (just as they have been doing in the US and Canada), which is required to keep their economies booming.  Germans and Swedes are getting elderly, and young Germans & Swedes just don't have babies.  Immigrants are absolutely essential.  Who are these Muslim immigrants currently on the road into Europe?  They are the Syrian middle class.  Families who need jobs and peace.  Will absorption be difficult?  Yes, but it will eventually be O.K.  A blessing even.

I agree with all you've said here.

[thesometimesaint]

It has really made little difference which yokel was in the White House, Bush or Obama.  Bush created the current debacle by destroying Iraq based on false intel claims of weapons of mass destruction.  This has destabilized the entire region, leaving a power vacuum for ISIS to fill, and Obama has dragged his feet in response -- leading to millions of refugees.  None of this needed to  happen.  Now that it has, the reverberating consequences will be with us all for many years.

 

Lesson:  A stitch in time saves nine.  It would have cost us far less and have been less of a threat to our national security to have simply continued our policy of boxing in Saddam Hussein (we had a no-fly zone and a very good embargo).

 

Europe could profit by all of this, however.  A very low birthrate in Europe means that migrants fill a void (just as they have been doing in the US and Canada), which is required to keep their economies booming.  Germans and Swedes are getting elderly, and young Germans & Swedes just don't have babies.  Immigrants are absolutely essential.  Who are these Muslim immigrants currently on the road into Europe?  They are the Syrian middle class.  Families who need jobs and peace.  Will absorption be difficult?  Yes, but it will eventually be O.K.  A blessing even.

 

We made lots of mistakes in Iraq.

 

Let's hope Europe and the US step up to the plate and help these desperate people.

[why me]

It has really made little difference which yokel was in the White House, Bush or Obama.  Bush created the current debacle by destroying Iraq based on false intel claims of weapons of mass destruction.  This has destabilized the entire region, leaving a power vacuum for ISIS to fill, and Obama has dragged his feet in response -- leading to millions of refugees.  None of this needed to  happen.  Now that it has, the reverberating consequences will be with us all for many years.

 

This is not all. Obama kept to his campaign promise and withdrew american armed forces from iraq. The iraqi army was ill equipped to defeat any enemy. Plus, the withdrawal left a hole in iraqi security. Also, the US government supported a shia president who persecuted the sunnis thereby marginalizing the sunni population. Saddam was a sunni.  Isis is basically a sunni outfit. And the NSA and the CIA did not see the buildup of soldiers that became isis. How could they miss this is beyond me. My guess is that obama ignored the intelligence. Or there was a big goof.

 

Lesson:  A stitch in time saves nine.  It would have cost us far less and have been less of a threat to our national security to have simply continued our policy of boxing in Saddam Hussein (we had a no-fly zone and a very good embargo).

 

The advisors who  surrounded bush wanted saddam out. Richard Perle, Paul Wolfowicz were bent set on getting bush involved in going to war to remove saddam. But the key to this story was the shia Ahmed Chalabi who fed false intelligence to bush and his advisors for the sole purpose of getting rid of saddam. .Chalbi was very influential with congress also.

 

http://foreignpolicy.com/2014/07/10/the-resurrection-of-ahmad-chalabi/

 

Europe could profit by all of this, however.  A very low birthrate in Europe means that migrants fill a void (just as they have been doing in the US and Canada), which is required to keep their economies booming.  Germans and Swedes are getting elderly, and young Germans & Swedes just don't have babies.  Immigrants are absolutely essential.  Who are these Muslim immigrants currently on the road into Europe?  They are the Syrian middle class.  Families who need jobs and peace.  Will absorption be difficult?  Yes, but it will eventually be O.K.  A blessing even.

 

The problem is that muslim populations have a difficult time in assimulation. They tend to separate themselves from the rest of society who are not muslim. This is why far right parties are increasing in strength, especially in denmark, sweden, and france. This can be seen in how european muslim women dress in contrast to western women. Also, the muslim faith is not a tolerant faith. I don't believe that they would be for same sex marriage, having men and women in the same swimming pool etc. Not to mention the blatant partriarchy in the islamic faith. .They would be against western liberal values. Of course there also secular muslims but....at this point, they seem to be in a minority.  From my experience, it seems that european muslim women are dressing much more conservatively now as a direct reaction to western values.

 

http://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-trending-32932003

 

http://www.spiegel.de/international/spiegel/turkey-in-transition-less-europe-more-islam-a-446163.html

 

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-13038095

 

This pressure can be seen in europe too as women tend to now dress more conservatively. See the last link. It goes against the  grain in europe where women and men have more or less the same rights. For many europeans, it is a in your face religion. Thus, a reaction. Many of these migrants are devote muslims and they will show their strength in numbers. Thus, more reaction from the secular europeans and also from those of other faiths. Nativity plays are in decline in schools.

 

http://www.lancashiretelegraph.co.uk/news/11688129.___Don___t_let_our_schools_stop_using_the_word_Christmas_____insists_East_Lancs_councillor/?ref=mr

 

Although not mentioned, it is due to the influx of other faiths, mainly muslim faiths. But this is a more positive story, but one that tends to happen less often.

 

http://www.catholicherald.co.uk/commentandblogs/2014/12/02/how-muslims-saved-the-nativity-play-at-my-school/

I hope that what included in red helps to clarify. However, islam in europe has become much more conservative. It is a reaction against western norms and values. It is not easy to go  to an amusement park and see muslim children dress in a traditional muslim wear in summer. They are 8,9 10 years old. But their brothers are wearing shorts and tank tops. Eventually there will be a clash of civilzations as europe's tolerance becomes threatened by intolerance. The problem with the discussion of the migrants is ommiting the faith of the migrants. It makes a great difference within secular christian societies. And  the question: how much should christians help such migrants who will change the religious landscape of europe?

Edited September 20, 2015 by why me

[The Nehor]

Nehor

 

Someday you may understand that what you think you know you don't and maybe your hard line approach will soften and you may realize that things are not as simple and your simpleton approach would demonstrate.  I hope for your sake it does not all crumble down around you.

And you are calling me condescending?

[bcuzbcuz]

And you are calling me condescending?

Does this topic have to be about you?