Is Feeling The Spirit Really Just Confirmation Bias?

[Glenn101]

Please share...the other night I called out to God and got zilch. I'm sure out of the billions of angels and he being so powerful he could/should have been more attentive. The lessons or times we're told he listens and answers prayers are shallow. That he loves us. Nobody really knows. They just say they have a powerful witness to the spirit, but you get warm fuzzies watching a movie, standing to sing the national anthem, watching animals, sunsets. Maybe that is God to me, it's all I get. Not my first rodeo of receiving silence.

If it's so convincing why don't the leaders say more? All they're doing by being vague is causing questions. You said if it weren't for that experience you had you wouldn't believe what you do today. Does that mean people who keep holding out are more faithful? Not being snarky here. I read a biography once of Maureen McCormick. She had a visit from the Lord, it was real and she gave it more detail buy my memory escapes me. If she can be so forthright why can't others, especially the leaders. She played Marsha Brady on the Brady Bunch. (phone's dying)

 

I have read many stories by church leaders about some of their spiritual experiences. But they are theirs. There are two experiences that I can relate which were very vivid and real to me. One was when I was a young child attending an LDS Sacrament service.

For most of my early youth I attended church very little or maybe local Protestant churches within walking distance because we did not have a car. I do not remember my parents teaching anthing about the gospel during those years. But that night during the LDS Sacrament meeting, while one elderly gentleman was speaking, I saw a halo around his head and I knew that what he was saying was true. I did not know at that time what a halo was. You might say that I had lived an information deprived childhood because we had no radio or television in our home. Everything was new to me.

Over the intervening years that memory became dim to me and I eventually lost my way. At a very low point in my life, I was seeking help, seeking guidance. I began praying again, after many years of neglect. And an answer did not come the very first time, or the second, time, or the third time, that I prayed. I don't know how many times I prayed before something happened. But at one point, I suddenly know what I must do. It was as if a light had come on in my mind, showing me the path I must follow if I were to be saved from myself. It was fraught with uncertainties and dangers and it required that I put my total trust in the answer I had received. I had to quell all of my natural instincts to fight rather than to follow, but by following I was led through a maze that has led to safety in more ways than one. I will not reveal the actual details. They are personal. And I do not care if anyone else believes or not. I was there and I don't believe, I know.

 

Glenn

[Tacenda]

I have read many stories by church leaders about some of their spiritual experiences. But they are theirs. There are two experiences that I can relate which were very vivid and real to me. One was when I was a young child attending an LDS Sacrament service.

For most of my early youth I attended church very little or maybe local Protestant churches within walking distance because we did not have a car. I do not remember my parents teaching anthing about the gospel during those years. But that night during the LDS Sacrament meeting, while one elderly gentleman was speaking, I saw a halo around his head and I knew that what he was saying was true. I did not know at that time what a halo was. You might say that I had lived an information deprived childhood because we had no radio or television in our home. Everything was new to me.

Over the intervening years that memory became dim to me and I eventually lost my way. At a very low point in my life, I was seeking help, seeking guidance. I began praying again, after many years of neglect. And an answer did not come the very first time, or the second, time, or the third time, that I prayed. I don't know how many times I prayed before something happened. But at one point, I suddenly know what I must do. It was as if a light had come on in my mind, showing me the path I must follow if I were to be saved from myself. It was fraught with uncertainties and dangers and it required that I put my total trust in the answer I had received. I had to quell all of my natural instincts to fight rather than to follow, but by following I was led through a maze that has led to safety in more ways than one. I will not reveal the actual details. They are personal. And I do not care if anyone else believes or not. I was there and I don't believe, I know.

 

Glenn

Thank you!

 

ETA:  I feel compelled to share this that I just saw on my FB feed.  It's a gal I know who's got amazing talent!  I sent a picture of my deceased parents, in it they are walking away, it shows them with their arms around each other's backs.  It was right before my mom had to be put into an assisted care center.  She had Alzheimer's for over 10 years.  What she painted of this picture shows them in a heavenly surrounding, she does amazing work.  She just produced this one and it ties into the halo of your personal experience, and my angels comment in the other post.  I hope they're really there!   

 

  http://paintingbyrebeccacooper.com/lds-art/sketch-a-day-drawing-challenge-day-190-you-are-not-alone

 

http://paintingbyrebeccacooper.com/buy-art-prints  If you go to this page and scroll down, you'll see a couple walking away with arms around each other, that's my parents taken from a photo with street clothes.  It looks like she put them into temple clothes. 

Edited September 13, 2015 by Tacenda

[TheSkepticChristian]

 I was the one who experienced them and I am the only one, other than God, who can know the reality of them..

 

So you know, and won't consider other possibilities?

[Teancum]

This has happened to me many times as well

It's real

 

 

What is real?

[Teancum]

   Trying to convince another person of the reality of a spiritual experience is an exercise in futility. I have had a couple of them which I know were not confirmation bias. I don't really care what anyone else believes about them because I was the one who experienced them and I am the only one, other than God, who can know the reality of them.

   Possibly, probably some spiritual experiences are conformation bias, but there are others that are legitimate. I cannot speak informedly as to the validity of a reported spiritual experience related by another. Well, there is one that I can, else I would not be what I am today nor believe in what I believe in today.

 

Glenn

 

 

Well of course. Such experiences are personal and unverifiable.  Thus they are only useful to the person experiencing them and anyone else should not trust them or rely on them not on whit,

[mfbukowski]

 

What you pointed out doesn't help because most Bishops had previous callings that required them to be early in the building before the services.

So chance is a possibility.

 

A possibility?

 

So now we are ruling out any one possibility because there are an infinite number of other possibilities?

 

I am really glad that I will never be in an auto accident as long as I live because there are so many other possibilities!  Heck- I could get hit by a meteor any time now!

 

But that won't happen either because there are so many other possibilities!

[mfbukowski]

What is real?

Strawberry fields forever.

 

Context grasshopper, context.

[TheSkepticChristian]

A possibility?

 

So now we are ruling out any one possibility because there are an infinite number of other possibilities?

 

I didn't say that.

[Glenn101]

Glenn101, on 13 Sept 2015 - 09:10 AM, said:

 I was the one who experienced them and I am the only one, other than God, who can know the reality of them..

So you know, and won't consider other possibilities?

 

If a person knows one plus one equals two, why consider other possibilities?

 

Glenn

[mfbukowski]

 

Glenn101, on 13 Sept 2015 - 09:10 AM, said:

 I was the one who experienced them and I am the only one, other than God, who can know the reality of them..

 

If a person knows one plus one equals two, why consider other possibilities?

 

Glenn

 

How does one know one really loves one's wife?   Spouses should consider the possibility that they actually hate each other.  After all, how can they be certain?  Where is the objective measurement?

 

[sarcasm]

[pogi]

Well of course. Such experiences are personal and unverifiable.  Thus they are only useful to the person experiencing them and anyone else should not trust them or rely on them not on whit,

 

I agree that mystical or spiritual communion and experience is indeed ineffable and therefore impossible for the person who had the experience to verify, or prove, the experience to another individual.  I cannot cause you to experience what I have experienced, but the simple act of hearing is the seed of personal spiritual experience.  "He who has ears to hear, let him hear..."  Hearing leads to seeking, seeking leads to finding (verification), when done with open ears and a malleable heart.  As imperfect as our efforts may be in conveying such experience through words, the effects of such meager words have great power when planted and pondered upon.  I cannot give you the fruit of my experience, but I can give you the seed. 

 

If I never opened my ears and heart to the experiences of others, I would have never had my own personal experiences with the Lord, so to say that personal spiritual experiences are not useful to others is not true in my experience. 

Edited September 14, 2015 by pogi

[mfbukowski]

I agree that mystical or spiritual communion and experience is indeed ineffable and therefore impossible for the person who had the experience to verify, or prove, the experience to another individual. I cannot cause you to experience what I have experienced, but the simple act of hearing is the seed of personal spiritual experience. "He who has ears to hear, let him hear..." Hearing leads to seeking, seeking leads to finding (verification), when done with open ears and a malleable heart. As imperfect as our efforts may be in conveying such experience through words, the effects of such meager words have great power when planted and pondered upon. I cannot give you the fruit of my experience, but I can give you the seed.

If I never opened my ears and heart to the experiences of others, I would have never had my own personal experiences with the Lord, so to say that personal spiritual experiences are not useful to others is not true in my experience.

Oooo.

Good stuff!

[mfbukowski]

Oooo.

Good stuff!

I mean seriously.

VERY good stuff. Poetic, to the point and accurate. Love the fruit and seed analogy, never thought of that before.

You have taught me a new way of seeing it, thanks.

[pogi]

I mean seriously.

VERY good stuff. Poetic, to the point and accurate. Love the fruit and seed analogy, never thought of that before.

You have taught me a new way of seeing it, thanks.

 

Thanks Mark

[Calm]

You are an enjoyable poster to read. Very nice way with words.

This is why I cannot walk away from the board...always waiting for just one more new perspective to polish up my own with.

Edited September 14, 2015 by Calm

[Calm]

Here is a visual reference, you need to click on it and go to the sixth entry. I love the multiple uses of seed in the arkwork itself, including the seed the gourd came from.

https://www.lds.org/ensign/2012/09/testifying-of-christ?lang=eng

Edited September 14, 2015 by Calm

[Robert F. Smith]

I've had impressions that went against what I wanted to do and was thinking of doing. One example that I don't mind sharing is one time I had to pray about counselours and this one guy I didn't really like or want to work with kept popping up and I felt that he should be called and so he was. I don't know why he specifically was called but he was and so there it is!

Not bad Duncan I have had the same issue as you.

In another variation on the theme of unexpected inspiration, I once found myself just wanting to see a new Joseph Smith film produced by the Church (it was an expensive one and included paddle-wheel boats on the Mississippi).  I heard it was showing at the Visitor's Center at the Los Angeles Temple.  I showed up and found myself in a small room with the film about to start, when a sister missionary from Manila came in to welcome us and bear her testimony -- just an ordinary, brief testimony.

 

As she began to speak, I instantly had an unexpected experience which dumbfounded me and brought tears.  I had never felt the Holy Spirit before, and I hadn't asked for it.  Yet here it was, unbidden, backing up the innocuous words of a small young woman who had come all the way from Manila to serve her mission in L.A.  I heard no words from the Lord, but it seemed clear to me that He had reached down and grabbed me by the scruff of the neck, and had given me a good shake, so to speak.  I got the message and began going to the temple.  Little Sister Villaverde had no idea what had happened to me (thankfully the room was semi-darkened), but I have never forgotten it.

Edited September 14, 2015 by Robert F. Smith

[Robert F. Smith]

 

that would be the minor prophet, george harrison ... but one of my favorites from SP

 

Oh wow- major error, seriously!

 

I should have know that.   I stand corrected by Gervin.

 

Who woulda thunk it?

Yeh, that was the guy who wrote "While my guitar gently weeps."

 

[Stargazer]

I am not saying it is chance, I don't know. It is possible, but I can't make that judgment.

I see. How many members does your ward have?

Not sure, but our average Sacrament meeting attendance is around 220. Or it was at the time.

 

You didn't suspect that, but it makes sense that the new Bishop was going to be in the building before the services began.

Why would it make sense? Have you been called to be a bishop, or knew a man who was called to be a bishop, and they were in the building before the services began? And how soon before the meeting? Half-hour? Fifteen minutes? Ten minutes? In my experience, while he was serving every bishop I've ever observed was early in the building before meetings began, but I can't say I've observed all of them on the day they were called. I can tell you that when I was called to be branch president many years ago, I arrived at the meeting while it was in progress. I.e. I was late.

I think you are making the same mistake I see made by many others: assuming that what makes sense to you means the Universe must necessarily comply.

 

So how many members are usually in the building before the services begin?

Again, how early are you talking about? Meeting starts at 9 am. This happened at about 8:30 am, when normally there are about 10 people in the building, max. And what difference does it make?

 

and a room with the light on means that someone (a person or a group) is there.

Not necessarily. I regularly volunteer to check building security at night, and I find room lights left on all the time. And what difference does this make, anyway? Do you think that the Spirit couldn't have told me that the new bishop was in there unless the light was on? Oh, that's right, you're trying your best to find altnerative solutions to the problem of a personal revelation that turned out to be true.

 

It is very impressive if it was a unique and special voice. Are you sure it was a unique voice? and does that same voice always work?

What do you mean "unique and special"? Perhaps I used the term "voice" incorrectly, because it wasn't a voice, associated with vibrational waves in the air as detected by one's ears. It was an internal string of words that just popped in there.

 

Yes, I still hope for a unique, powerful, and special feeling.

The words I felt were not "powerful." Using the term "voice" in the same sense that Isaiah used it, it was a "still, small voice". It was distinctive, but in a way that felt clearly from outside me, and coming to me without my will. If you're looking for something dramatic and breath-taking, I am afraid that I must tell you that you are probably looking in vain.

OK.

This conversation has gone much as I expected it to go. No witness of mine is going to overcome your doubt, and that is the way it should be, but you are not merely doubting that I had a witness, you actually doubt that it is possible for anyone to have such a witness, including yourself. You chose your screen name well. Trust me, your Father in Heaven knows who you are. You think He's actually going to give you, who has richly demonstrated that you do not trust anyone's witness, a personal revelation? When I was a missionary, I understood that the point of bearing testimony was, in part, to encourage my investigators that they, too, could discover that the Church was true, just as I had done. The other part was to give the Spirit the opportunity to bear witness to them in that moment about what I was testifying, to satisfy the principle of witnesses, that "in the mouth of two or three witnesses" eventhing shall be established. But I knew very well that my words might fall upon barren soil, that was impervious to both my words and the Spirit.

You are erring in good company, though. Thomas the Apostle doubted all of his brethren of the Twelve that Jesus had been resurrected and had appeared to them. Despite all that he had seen Jesus do that were out and out miraculous, things that were never, ever done in mortality, Thomas refused the witness of ten men whom he knew well to be honest and grounded.

I wish you well, but until you learn to trust God, I don't think He will trust you.

[Stargazer]

My bad, I am reading fast because I can't spend a lof of time here.

What you pointed out doesn't help because most Bishops had previous callings that required them to be early in the building before the services.

So chance is a possibility.

No, I don't think you're taking it as a possibility. It sounds more like you're certain of it. There is no possible way this is going to come out in your mind as a possibility that the Spirit actually revealed something to me that I couldn't possibly know. If it were the other way around you would have allowed that a true revelation was a possibility. But you're ruled by the negative, the skepticism.

In response to what you've claimed here, I've thought back over the past 30 years in my current ward, and as best I can remember, this was only the second time that a new bishop had a calling that put him in the building 1 hour or so before the sacrament meeting. The first time was when the new bishop was already in the bishopric -- but I didn't get any personal revelation about that one (this is the only time, in fact). What's the track record on this with all the bishops you've ever known? Do you even know?

I'm telling you what was told to me by no material person about a person I couldn't see who was in a room. Instead of addressing that, you're mulling over the supposed high likelihood that a new bishop might be in the building early. Assume for the sake of argument that the Spirit wanted to reveal to me who the next bishop was going to be. Could the Spirit do this in the manner I indicated if the new bishop wasn't in that room? No! So the new bishop being in that room at that time is a prerequisite for being able to tell me that he was in that room. It couldn't have happened in that way unless those conditions were fulfilled. But instead of addressing the revelation itself, you insist upon calculating the chances that the whole thing was a complete coincidence. And you can't see the inherent problem in saying that you hope one day to get a clear revelation? I present to you a clear revelation that happened to me, and the only thing you can bring yourself to do is second-guess it.

As to the nature of the revelation, I will admit that I sometimes talk to myself in my head. When I do this I know perfectly well that I'm initiating it. I say something like "That was stupid, you idiot." I might even say it out loud. I don't mistake this for the Spirit.

 

Were you excited to learn who the next Bishop was going to be?

When I saw this your question, I had to reflect for a bit. Was I excited? No, I wasn't. I did feel satisfaction that Father would favor me with this advance knowledge. And grateful that he trusted me with it.

 

Like I said, it is very impressive if it was a unique voice. Was it the same unique voice the four times? Did it predict the future the four times your heard it?

I am not trying to be a jerk, I am also looking at testimonies from "many angles"

How many angles can stand on the head of a pin?

Again, it wasn't a voice in the sense that I "heard it" and that it sounded like the same person. OK? As to the other question, two experiences were dealing with the future. The other two times was to bring a principle to my attention.

Finally, I will recommend to you what pogi wrote:

I agree that mystical or spiritual communion and experience is indeed ineffable and therefore impossible for the person who had the experience to verify, or prove, the experience to another individual. I cannot cause you to experience what I have experienced, but the simple act of hearing is the seed of personal spiritual experience. "He who has ears to hear, let him hear..." Hearing leads to seeking, seeking leads to finding (verification), when done with open ears and a malleable heart. As imperfect as our efforts may be in conveying such experience through words, the effects of such meager words have great power when planted and pondered upon. I cannot give you the fruit of my experience, but I can give you the seed.

If I never opened my ears and heart to the experiences of others, I would have never had my own personal experiences with the Lord, so to say that personal spiritual experiences are not useful to others is not true in my experience.

Edited September 14, 2015 by Stargazer

[TheSkepticChristian]

No, I don't think you're taking it as a possibility. It sounds more like you're certain of it.

 

I am not certain, and I am an active LDS that is living the commandments. Please don't judge me, I am simply looking at it from "many angels" I said, "It is very impressive if it was a unique and special voice." I sometimes defend Joseph Smith and the History of the LDS church. A true critic will never say or do that.

 

In response to what you've claimed here, I've thought back over the past 30 years in my current ward, and as best I can remember, this was only the second time that a new bishop had a calling that put him in the building 1 hour or so before the sacrament meeting.

 

It is true that most Bishops usually had other callings. but very interesting, I think it is more likely to be real now. However, how may adult members with callings did your ward have at the time of your experience? 50? If 50, then there was 1/50 chance of the new Bishop being in that room, and please remember that millions of people receive special promptings, so it means that some of them are going to be correct. 

 

If a room has the light on it means that someone is probably there.

 

 Could the Spirit do this in the manner I indicated if the new bishop wasn't in that room? No! So the new bishop being in that room at that time is a prerequisite for being able to tell me that he was in that room. It couldn't have happened in that way unless those conditions were fulfilled. But instead of addressing the revelation itself, you insist upon calculating the chances that the whole thing was a complete coincidence. And you can't see the inherent problem in saying that you hope one day to get a clear revelation? I present to you a clear revelation that happened to me, and the only thing you can bring yourself to do is second-guess it.

 

 

It was not my revelation, God does not require me to believe it, but I do take it as a serious possibility. However, other possibilities come to my mind too.

 

 

As to the nature of the revelation, I will admit that I sometimes talk to myself in my head. When I do this I know perfectly well that I'm initiating it. I say something like "That was stupid, you idiot." I might even say it out loud. I don't mistake this for the Spirit.

 

and no one does. However, the human brain is complex, "hallucinations can be common and ordinary" I am not saying you experienced a hallucination, but that possibility comes to my mind. Were you fasting that day? Did you sleep enough? 

Edited September 14, 2015 by TheSkepticChristian

[pogi]

Here is a visual reference, you need to click on it and go to the sixth entry. I love the multiple uses of seed in the arkwork itself, including the seed the gourd came from.

https://www.lds.org/ensign/2012/09/testifying-of-christ?lang=eng

 

Very cool, thanks for sharing.  

[Stargazer]

I am not certain, and I am an active LDS that is living the commandments. Please don't judge me, I am simply looking at it from "many angels" I said, "It is very impressive if it was a unique and special voice." I sometimes defend Joseph Smith and the History of the LDS church. A true critic will never say or do that.

 

 

It is true that most Bishops usually had other callings. but very interesting, I think it is more likely to be real now. However, how may adult members with callings did your ward have at the time of your experience? 50? If 50, then there was 1/50 chance of the new Bishop being in that room, and please remember that millions of people receive special promptings, so it means that some of them are going to be correct. 

 

If a room has the light on it means that someone is probably there.

 

 

It was not my revelation, God does not require me to believe it, but I do take it as a serious possibility. However, other possibilities come to my mind too.

 

 

 

and no one does. However, the human brain is complex, "hallucinations can be common and ordinary" I am not saying you experienced a hallucination, but that possibility comes to my mind. Were you fasting that day? Did you sleep enough?

If it has seemed like I'm judging you, rest assured that I am not.

Of course I slept enough. You might not have recalled the entire story as I told it, but I was late to bishopric meeting because I overslept. I definitely had enough sleep. I'm impressed to mention the fact that Joseph Smith said that he had had a vision, and no matter how much other people tried to deny that he did, or called him crazy, or a liar, the fact remained that he had had a vision and that was that.

But I guess I do get a bit exasperated that you can't just accept my word at face value. I was told that the new bishop was in that room, and he was. It was very straightforward. Similar other experiences (and there haven't been any false positives, just so you know), have convinced me that I know that God lives beyond any reasonable doubt, and that He is actively involved in my life and everyone else's. Well, it happened to me, and not you, so I don't know why I should expect you to just believe me. I need to be more charitable.

You may be one of those who haven't had such evidence given to you but whose faithfulness and willingness to believe another's report even when you don't have your own leads to your exaltation anyway. Or it may be that God is testing your faith especially and when you finally do receive that definite personal revelation it will therefore be the more precious to you.

My wife is 74 years old. Several months ago she told me about an experience she had a year previously while sitting pondering in the Celestial Room of the Seattle Temple. Suddenly the Spirit bore witness to her of the true nature of Jesus Christ. She said that before then, in all those years, she had believed in Christ, and honored Him, but until that moment didn't really know who He was.

Just keep being faithful, and I am sure that eventually you will know.

But I think it would speed things up if you stopped overanalyzing things.

Edited September 15, 2015 by Stargazer

[Tacenda]

If it has seemed like I'm judging you, rest assured that I am not.Of course I slept enough. You might not have recalled the entire story as I told it, but I was late to bishopric meeting because I overslept. I definitely had enough sleep. I'm impressed to mention the fact that Joseph Smith said that he had had a vision, and no matter how much other people tried to deny that he did, or called him crazy, or a liar, the fact remained that he had had a vision and that was that.But I guess I do get a bit exasperated that you can't just accept my word at face value. I was told that the new bishop was in that room, and he was. It was very straightforward. Similar other experiences (and there haven't been any false positives, just so you know), have convinced me that I know that God lives beyond any reasonable doubt, and that He is actively involved in my life and everyone else's. Well, it happened to me, and not you, so I don't know why I should expect you to just believe me. I need to be more charitable.You may be one of those who haven't had such evidence given to you but whose faithfulness and willingness to believe another's report even when you don't have your own leads to your exaltation anyway. Or it may be that God is testing your faith especially and when you finally do receive that definite personal revelation it will therefore be the more precious to you.My wife is 74 years old. Several months ago she told me about an experience she had a year previously while sitting pondering in the Celestial Room of the Seattle Temple. Suddenly the Spirit bore witness to her of the true nature of Jesus Christ. She said that before then, in all those years, she had believed in Christ, and honored Him, but until that moment didn't really know who He was.Just keep being faithful, and I am sure that eventually you will know.But I think it would speed things up if you stopped overanalyzing things.

This is sort of along the same lines, a former RS president, that I served with as RS secretary, spoke in church right after being called and said she already knew she would be called because she was told, in something like a vision/revelation.

[Stargazer]

This is sort of along the same lines, a former RS president, that I served with as RS secretary, spoke in church right after being called and said she already knew she would be called because she was told, in something like a vision/revelation.

 

The new bishop in the story which I told had a similar experience.  A few months after his call, we were in a bishopric meeting and he was giving the devotional.  He told us that several months beforehand he had gotten the distinct impression (he didn't give details) that he was going to be called to be the new bishop.  He decided that he would get a bit passive/aggressive about it, and since the stake president lived in our ward, he started vacationing on as many Sundays as he could, attending church in the town where his family had a vacation home.  His plan was to be as unobtrusive as possible, as if he were less active, so that the SP would have less reason to submit his name to SLC.

 

It didn't work.

 

I think that it is possible that unless the Spirit directs you to do so, after you are called you shouldn't talk about the "premonition" of your call so freely.  I say this because it "feels" wrong to do so -- depending upon the venue and the circumstances.  There are a couple of experiences I have had that I am very circumspect about describing.  Something like the conversation between TheSkepticChristian and me is bound to develop.  I initially hesitated to bring up the story as I told it, as the experience was particularly precious to me, and I was leaving myself open to possible scorn.  Though he did in fact treat my testimony with a certain amount of respect, for which I was grateful, it's offputting to have someone examine something that was as real as real could be, to me, as if it were some dodgy piece of meat.  "Well, according to my calculations, there's a 60% chance that this experience of yours is due entirely to coincidence, how much sleep you had the previous night, and your tendency to jump to conclusions." 

Edited September 15, 2015 by Stargazer