Thinking Posted August 20, 2015 Posted August 20, 2015 Confirmation Bias A form of the following question has been raised many times on this board. "Why do members of other religions receive spiritual confirmations that their church is the true church? Is it because that church already matches what they believe about what the true church should be? Are LDS immune from confirmation bias? Are critics guilty of confirmation bias?
Duncan Posted August 20, 2015 Posted August 20, 2015 I've had impressions that went against what I wanted to do and was thinking of doing. One example that I don't mind sharing is one time I had to pray about counselours and this one guy I didn't really like or want to work with kept popping up and I felt that he should be called and so he was. I don't know why he specifically was called but he was and so there it is! 2
stemelbow Posted August 20, 2015 Posted August 20, 2015 Confirmation Bias A form of the following question has been raised many times on this board. "Why do members of other religions receive spiritual confirmations that their church is the true church? How would I know? Their religion carries truth, perhaps? Is it because that church already matches what they believe about what the true church should be? A good question. yes. Are LDS immune from confirmation bias? Not in the least. That's what we thrive on, I'd say. Are critics guilty of confirmation bias? Aren't we all?
Mola Ram Suda Ram Posted August 20, 2015 Posted August 20, 2015 (edited) Confirmation Bias A form of the following question has been raised many times on this board. "Why do members of other religions receive spiritual confirmations that their church is the true church?I have heard this bandied about and I don't think it is true. I spoke to lots of people on my mission and the only people that responded to any sort of spiritual witness about the LDS faith was a few people in Lynchburg and they always bore a testimony that the spirit told the BoM was false. Out side of that I am not aware of any one claiming a spiritual witness for the truthfulness of their church. And even with teh anecdotal evidence I provided they were not bearing testimony of their own church. So, no, the spirit testifying is not some sort of confirmation bias. I have one other piece of anecdotal evidence. I was in the MTC and I really didn't not want to go on a mission and tell people "I know this church is true" if I did not have a witness. I was prepared to leave even at the sake of people thinking I had done something. It did receive a witness, not because I wanted to, believe me, I would have rather gone home. To this day that witness had kept me going. I know what confirmation bias looks like as I have had that in my life too where I thought, "This is what I should be doing". Edited August 20, 2015 by Mola Ram Suda Ram 3
Mola Ram Suda Ram Posted August 20, 2015 Posted August 20, 2015 I've had impressions that went against what I wanted to do and was thinking of doing. One example that I don't mind sharing is one time I had to pray about counselours and this one guy I didn't really like or want to work with kept popping up and I felt that he should be called and so he was. I don't know why he specifically was called but he was and so there it is!Not bad Duncan I have had the same issue as you.
ksfisher Posted August 20, 2015 Posted August 20, 2015 The below column by Orson Scott Card addresses some of the issues raised here. The entire column is worth a read, but the quote below is especially relevant. "We all face the same translation problem, when we follow the admonitions in Doctrine and Covenants 9, placing our best judgment before the Lord and asking him for confirmation.What do we offer the Lord? Not just the specific question we think we're asking, but also all of the assumptions that we are unaware of. If he then tells us "yes," are we not likely to assume he is saying yes to the whole package, to our entire understanding?It is as if we inadvertently ask him nothing but trick questions which cannot be answered with "yes" or "no." "Is this doctrine true?" we ask, but there is so much ignorance interwoven with the parts of we understanding correctly, how can he answer us without misleading us?" http://www.deseretnews.com/article/705359813/Orson-Scott-Card-We-all-face-translation-problems.html?pg=all
jkwilliams Posted August 20, 2015 Posted August 20, 2015 I have heard this bandied about and I don't think it is true. I spoke to lots of people on my mission and the only people that responded to any sort of spiritual witness about the LDS faith was a few people in Lynchburg and they always bore a testimony that the spirit told the BoM was false. Out side of that I am not aware of any one claiming a spiritual witness for the truthfulness of their church. And even with teh anecdotal evidence I provided they were not bearing testimony of their own church. So, no, the spirit testifying is not some sort of confirmation bias. I have one other piece of anecdotal evidence. I was in the MTC and I really didn't not want to go on a mission and tell people "I know this church is true" if I did not have a witness. I was prepared to leave even at the sake of people thinking I had done something. It did receive a witness, not because I wanted to, believe me, I would have rather gone home. To this day that witness had kept me going. I know what confirmation bias looks like as I have had that in my life too where I thought, "This is what I should be doing". In my experience, if you ask a Christian why they believe in God, Jesus, or the Bible, it almost always comes down to a spiritual confirmation they had. I don't know who you've talked to, but I know Catholics, Evangelicals, JWs, and Muslims who have shared stories of spiritual confirmation that sound pretty much the same as an LDS testimony, though perhaps not with the same language. 1
BookofMormonLuvr Posted August 20, 2015 Posted August 20, 2015 (edited) With how the first Ward we attended treated us, and my generally negative attitude towards church and life in general until I was about 16- I can guarantee you my witness of the Book of Mormon is not confirmation bias. Edited August 20, 2015 by BookofMormonLuvr
jkwilliams Posted August 20, 2015 Posted August 20, 2015 Going back to the OP, I think it's impossible to judge the validity of someone else's subjective experience. When people tell me they have received a spiritual confirmation of something, I respect that because it's their experience, not mine. 1
HappyJackWagon Posted August 20, 2015 Posted August 20, 2015 In my experience, if you ask a Christian why they believe in God, Jesus, or the Bible, it almost always comes down to a spiritual confirmation they had. I don't know who you've talked to, but I know Catholics, Evangelicals, JWs, and Muslims who have shared stories of spiritual confirmation that sound pretty much the same as an LDS testimony, though perhaps not with the same language.There's a great u-tube video of people of many different faith traditions bearing their testimonies of their religions and they sound very similar to ours. (can't look up the link right now. Might try later) We all suffer from confirmation bias. It's inevitable. But that doesn't mean the spirit can't also speak to us at times. It's not an either/or proposition but rather a "when" we receive the spirit versus confirmation bias. I personally believe the spirit can prompt us or teach us or comfort us but I think it's rare. I believe it is much more common that we work things out on our own. I suspect God is comfortable with us making our own decisions so it is unnecessary to have the spirit witness about very many things. 1
jkwilliams Posted August 20, 2015 Posted August 20, 2015 There's a great u-tube video of people of many different faith traditions bearing their testimonies of their religions and they sound very similar to ours. (can't look up the link right now. Might try later) We all suffer from confirmation bias. It's inevitable. But that doesn't mean the spirit can't also speak to us at times. It's not an either/or proposition but rather a "when" we receive the spirit versus confirmation bias. I personally believe the spirit can prompt us or teach us or comfort us but I think it's rare. I believe it is much more common that we work things out on our own. I suspect God is comfortable with us making our own decisions so it is unnecessary to have the spirit witness about very many things. I watched a video not long ago wherein some guy got a group of self-professed atheists together and was able to get them to feel an "instant conversion" of the spirit. It was quite disturbing. I have often wondered if we are capable of creating our own spiritual experiences because we want to have them. 2
Mola Ram Suda Ram Posted August 20, 2015 Posted August 20, 2015 (edited) In my experience, if you ask a Christian why they believe in God, Jesus, or the Bible, it almost always comes down to a spiritual confirmation they had. I don't know who you've talked to, but I know Catholics, Evangelicals, JWs, and Muslims who have shared stories of spiritual confirmation that sound pretty much the same as an LDS testimony, though perhaps not with the same language.Guess we will just have to agree to disagree. Many fought with me that we could not know through the spirit. I talked to lots of baptists. Even on this board many evangelicals claims that the bible is true because we know where Jerusalem is, no mention of the spirit. And when the spirit is talked about, it is being reduced to "feelings". Edited August 20, 2015 by Mola Ram Suda Ram
Mola Ram Suda Ram Posted August 20, 2015 Posted August 20, 2015 Going back to the OP, I think it's impossible to judge the validity of someone else's subjective experience. When people tell me they have received a spiritual confirmation of something, I respect that because it's their experience, not mine.All in all I agree with this. And as far as I can tell, I have never claimed that some one else' experience was inauthentic or fake. 1
jkwilliams Posted August 20, 2015 Posted August 20, 2015 Guess we will just have to agree to disagree. Many fought with me that we could not know through the spirit. I talked to lots of baptists. Even on this board many evangelicals claims that the bible is true because we know where Jerusalem is no mention of the spirit. And when the spirit is talked about it talking about and reduced to "feelings". Way back on the old a.r.m. board, there was a Calvinist guy from Canada who was always railing against how we Mormons decided truth through "feelings." I asked him why he believed in the Bible and God, and he gave me the same old stuff about its historicity, prophecies coming true, and so on. But I said, how do you know it's from God? How do you know He even exists? He proceeded to tell me a story about a time when he was struggling with doubts, and he was stopped at a stoplight and was praying in his heart, and an overwhelming feeling of God's presence and love filled his soul. Every Christian I have ever asked about this gives those standard answers first, but when you dig deeper, it's almost always a spiritual experience. You should ask a Christian sometime.
Mola Ram Suda Ram Posted August 20, 2015 Posted August 20, 2015 (edited) Way back on the old a.r.m. board, there was a Calvinist guy from Canada who was always railing against how we Mormons decided truth through "feelings." I asked him why he believed in the Bible and God, and he gave me the same old stuff about its historicity, prophecies coming true, and so on. But I said, how do you know it's from God? How do you know He even exists? He proceeded to tell me a story about a time when he was struggling with doubts, and he was stopped at a stoplight and was praying in his heart, and an overwhelming feeling of God's presence and love filled his soul. Every Christian I have ever asked about this gives those standard answers first, but when you dig deeper, it's almost always a spiritual experience. You should ask a Christian sometime.I don't deny that this happens. But it seems most or all that I talked to, even on this board, never admitted what he did. I think that is always the point though. That it does happen but if other Christians tell us of their experience then how can they tell me that we are wrong? They can't, so they have to throw it all out when talking with us and approach it from a "here is the evidence". Oh well. Also, back to the OP, I am not aware of others claiming that they received a witness that their church is the true church. The closest is what you outlined John. Basically that God exists and loves them and they know it now. Edited August 20, 2015 by Mola Ram Suda Ram
jkwilliams Posted August 20, 2015 Posted August 20, 2015 I don't deny that this happens. But it seems most or all that I talked to, even on this board, never admitted what he did. I think that is always the point though. That it does happen but if other Christians tell us of their experience then how can they tell me that we are wrong? They can't, so they have to throw it all out when talking with us and approach it from a "here is the evidence". Oh well. I think you just have to know what questions to ask. Honest people will tell you why they believe, and most people will acknowledge their faith isn't based on historicity or reason or logic. But sure, someone who wants to condemn us for "feelings" is probably not going to want to admit the foundations of their own faith unless you pull it out of them. I never thought that Calvinist would admit that to me, but he did.
Ahab Posted August 20, 2015 Posted August 20, 2015 Seeking confirmation for something we already believe doesn't lead to the reason why we believe something in the first place, We all have to start somewhere though, so usually we start with an idea that for some reason seems appealing to us. But why is it appealing? What is it that leads us to like whatever we like? Why are some things appealing to us, and some not?Like the idea that there is no God? Why would that idea be appealing to anybody? Why not just come up with an idea of God, or a definition of God, that is an idea we would like? And then from that point seek some kind of confirmation that there is something or someone like that which we could say God is?Before we look for confirmation we have to figure out what we want to believe in the first place. What we hope is true, msybe, or what we hope is not true. What we like and why we like it.
snowflake Posted August 20, 2015 Posted August 20, 2015 All in all I agree with this. And as far as I can tell, I have never claimed that some one else' experience was inauthentic or fake.I would agree that other people's experiences are as authentic and genuine as my own, which begs the question "should personal experiences be validated as truth claims?".
Thinking Posted August 20, 2015 Author Posted August 20, 2015 begs the question Calm down Scott. Snowflake probably learned this from that same BYU professor that I did.
The Nehor Posted August 21, 2015 Posted August 21, 2015 Personal experiences are validated personally and personally only. I suspect God does it this way to prevent us from becoming too dependent on others. As great as a prophet is the prophet is leading you to God not to the prophet. When Saul was desperate he went to the witch and tried to communicate with Samuel instead of God. He relied too much on a subsidiary source. Premortality already proved we could fight for the right with clear knowledge. This time the two most prominent metaphors for our relationship to God are God wooing an unfaithful spouse and dealing with obstinate children (sometimes less charitable designations are given). You don't reason your way to win someone's romantic love and usually you do not try to reason with a disobedient small child. With the former you trust them. Any lover who spent the bulk of their relationship hunting for hints of unfaithfulness will fail and unless the child learns to trust the parent who knows more the child will not learn. We want to approach God as sophisticated intellectual adults as almost quasi-equals but he wants children who trust him and his adulterous lover to take his gifts, be forgiven, and come home. 2
SmileyMcGee Posted August 21, 2015 Posted August 21, 2015 I think so, but we'll never know. Is it confirmation bias? The Spirit? Satan deceiving us? A god we don't know about? Hormones? Imagination? Can't know. We can say what it feels like, and we can even say "it's different than other feelings," but we don't know the source. The source is assumed, and assumptions are where the bias comes in to play.
Kenngo1969 Posted August 21, 2015 Posted August 21, 2015 For myself, I can tell the difference when the Holy Spirit has operated in my life and confirmation bias. I cannot, however, do that for someone else. And I don't believe God gives me fruit, bread, and fish when I ask for them while giving others thorns, thistles, stones, and serpents when they ask for fruit, bread, and fish. 1
TheSkepticChristian Posted August 21, 2015 Posted August 21, 2015 (edited) I've had impressions that went against what I wanted to do and was thinking of doing. Some impressions may come from God, but please remember the human brain sometimes finds patterns that are not real. It is called Apophenia, Patternicity, and Randomania, not confirmation bias. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apophenia Here is an example and another example (National geographic) I felt that he should be called and so he was. I don't know why he specifically was called but he was and so there it is! and you are sharing that experience because he accepted the calling. Edited August 21, 2015 by TheSkepticChristian
TheSkepticChristian Posted August 21, 2015 Posted August 21, 2015 (edited) For myself, I can tell the difference when the Holy Spirit has operated in my life and confirmation bias. and I am trying to know the difference too, but it is hard for me. So how do you know the difference? Is it a different feeling? When you follow your spiritual answers, do they always work as you expect? If not, do you look for positives for following the answer? Edited August 21, 2015 by TheSkepticChristian
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