Poll: Majority Of Utah Mormons Want Lds Church To Leave The Boy Scouts

[KevinG]

I am talking about the boy scouts in General, not LDS units. The LDS church will never allow leaders that are not living the law of chastity.

 

The church said something about the Boy Scouts when they decided to allow gay leaders, but if the Boy Scouts allows leaders that are co-habitating, the church didn't say anything about that.  

 

So far I don't know of any open heterosexual fornicators suing the BSA to accommodate them with a leadership position.  I would oppose it.

[jkwilliams]

So far I don't know of any open heterosexual fornicators suing the BSA to accommodate them with a leadership position.  I would oppose it.

 

That's because openly heterosexual fornicators are allowed to serve as Scout leaders. Personally, I worry more that the BSA will be infiltrated by the Illuminati.

[rockpond]

I wonder if some non-LDS units allow unmarried leaders living with a woman, if they do, then I wonder why the church didn't say anything about that.

 

Gay prejudice.  IMO.

[Rain]

So how do you figure out what you should do? Whose standards do you strive to uphold? Don't you think you at least subconsciously ask yourself what God would do or have you do in at least some situations?

What do you think God would do in regards to the BSA situation, for example? Don't you think you should do what God would do in regards to the BSA organization? What do you have against the idea of wanting to do what you think God would do in regards to the BSA organization? Do you thinking the Church is already doing what God would do or wants it to do in that regard, or do you think the Church should make some changes in its relationship with it? How do you even begin to think about what you should do in this situation?

I really didn't expect what I said to be this big of a deal. I was agreeing with someone else about a saying I don't like. To tell the truth the BSA didn't even enter my mind when I read the post. If you want to discuss the saying perhaps you should open a new thread about it.

[Ahab]

I really didn't expect what I said to be this big of a deal. I was agreeing with someone else about a saying I don't like. To tell the truth the BSA didn't even enter my mind when I read the post. If you want to discuss the saying perhaps you should open a new thread about it.

I think the saying can be applied to this issue as well as any other, and all other issues.

I strive to do what Jesus would do all the time in my life, if he was in the same situation and circumstances that I am in at any given moment. And I think that is usually or at least should be the attitude of any other disciple of Christ.

What are you going to do now?

[Rain]

I think the saying can be applied to this issue as well as any other, and all other issues.

I strive to do what Jesus would do all the time in my life, if he was in the same situation and circumstances that I am in at any given moment. And I think that is usually or at least should be the attitude of any other disciple of Christ.

What are you going to do now?

I'm going to leave the saying alone right now because you are not listening to me.

[ERayR]

I wonder if some non-LDS units allow unmarried leaders living with a woman, if they do, then I wonder why the church didn't say anything about that.

 

Please show that such a scout master exists.  You have given no evidence that it has happened.

[Sleeper Cell]

Gay prejudice.  IMO.

 

Before speculating on the reasons why the LDS church “didn’t say anything about that,” shouldn’t you first have some evidence that “that” actually occurred?   How did a hypothetical question (“I wonder if some non-LDS units allow … If they do, then I wonder why the church didn’t say anything about that)  -- a question about what the church would do if such and such happened -- become evidence that:

 

1.  it did, in fact,  happen 

2.  the church knew it happened

3.  knowing it happened, the church did nothing

4.  the church’s failure to act was motivated by  “gay prejudice”  

Edited August 22, 2015 by Sleeper Cell

[Ahab]

I'm going to leave the saying alone right now because you are not listening to me.

I heard you, but I'll stop talking to you about this issue for now because I think that's what Jesus would do in our situation.

Or maybe he would say something else about the BSA that ties in with our discussion that I am not thinking about now.

[rockpond]

Before speculating on the reasons why the LDS church “didn’t say anything about that,” shouldn’t you first have some evidence that “that” actually occurred? How did a hypothetical question (“I wonder if some non-LDS units allow … If they do, then I wonder why the church didn’t say anything about that) -- a question about what the church would do if such and such happened -- become evidence that:

1. it did, in fact, happen

2. the church knew it happened

3. knowing it happened, the church did nothing

4. the church’s failure to act was motivated by “gay prejudice”

The BSA doesn't enforce our Law of Chastity so I am fairly confident that it has happened in non-LDS troops and it's never seemed to present a problem for the church. The church has also been fine with the BSA violating the sabbath and failing to follow the Word of Wisdom even at scout events. I'm not aware of church leaders ever publicly complaining about BSA exec salaries or lack of financial disclosure. But gays in scouting! Oh my... Now we'd better sever all ties!

I said that "gay prejudice" was "my opinion". It's based on my experience as a member.

[jcake]

You nailed it. Church leaders said some pretty harsh things against those who were of African descent.

 

They sure did!  I believe the church view of gays, today, is about par with its views of those of African descent, around 1938.  Scriptures could be sited to support that view, of course.   Maybe in another 40 years, official church views regarding gay people will have evolved as much as the views of those with African descent did, in the decades prior to 1978.  Of course, there were those who had a lot of difficulty accepting that men of the African race would be ordained to the priesthood.

 

Eventually, people may be amazed that the church ever had such a difficult time with something like allowing a gay man to serve in the BSA program.  

[Sleeper Cell]

The BSA doesn't enforce our Law of Chastity so I am fairly confident that it has happened in non-LDS troops and it's never seemed to present a problem for the church. The church has also been fine with the BSA violating the sabbath and failing to follow the Word of Wisdom even at scout events. I'm not aware of church leaders ever publicly complaining about BSA exec salaries or lack of financial disclosure. But gays in scouting! Oh my... Now we'd better sever all ties!

I said that "gay prejudice" was "my opinion". It's based on my experience as a member.

 

So, in your view,  the Scout oath to be “morally straight” is meaningless?  

 

The WoW does not apply to non-Mormons. The commandment to keep the Sabbath day holy applies only to members of the Judeo-Christian religious tradition (and even within that tradition there have long been many different interpretations on just what that means).  

 

IIRC, the BSA accepts members from all religious traditions. The scout oath does not require every member to live according to the specific precepts of any one church or religious tradition.  But it does presuppose that there is a minimal standard of morality that applies to all.  Otherwise, why not just change the scout oath from “keep myself morally straight” to “do whatever I feel is right?”  

 

As I said in an earlier post:

 

Unless there is agreement on what constitutes the minimal standards of morality, an oath to be moral becomes meaningless.  

 

Troop A has a gay scoutmaster who is legally married to his gay spouse. Troop B refuses to allow gay scoutmasters -- even those married to their gay spouses -- because their leaders and sponsoring institution believe that homosexual relations are fundamentally immoral.  On the other hand, the leaders of Troop A believe that such discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation is immoral.  How can both groups say they uphold the same scout oath when they hold fundamentally contradictory views on what it means?  

 

Unfortunately BSA is abandoning its “100 year old tradition of honor.”  Not “merely” by allowing what it traditionally considered to be immoral,  but by essentially turning the scout oath into a matter of “it all depends on what the definition of ’is’ is.”  

[Sleeper Cell]

The BSA doesn't enforce our Law of Chastity so I am fairly confident that it has happened in non-LDS troops and it's never seemed to present a problem for the church. 

 

What did you mean by “it has happened?”  If you mean that somewhere, at some time, some troop probably had a scoutmaster who lived with his girlfriend, you are probably right.  But if one is going to conclude that it “never seemed to present a problem for the church,” the relevant questions are:

1.  Did the troop leadership know about it when they appointed him?

2.  Was the BSA national organization aware of it at the time?

3.  If the BSA national leadership knew and did nothing, did the LDS church know that they condoned it?

 

It is one thing to speculate that at some time, someone, somewhere, probably did something wrong.  Quite another to conclude, without evidence, that the church knew about it ("it" being the speculation that such actually occurred) and decided to overlook it.  Especially if that “someone” was not subject, even indirectly, to the church’s supervision.   What you have is not just one speculation, but one speculation piled on top of another in order to reach the desired conclusion.

 

But even had the church known about it (again, “it” being the supposition that such misconduct did occur, and that BSA  knew about it and condoned it), we would still be talking apples and oranges.  The LDS church is not threatening to leave because some troops supposedly have gay scoutmasters, or even because it believes that BSA knows and does nothing.  It threatened to leave only after BSA adopted a policy that formally approved the practice -- and even requiers other troops to be willing to accept gay scoutmasters (exempting only those troops sponsored by churches with faith based objections).

 

As far as I know, BSA has no formal policy that allows unmarried scoutmasters who live with their girlfriends, let alone one that prohibits “discrimination against” those who do.    

Edited August 22, 2015 by Sleeper Cell

[Sleeper Cell]

I said that "gay prejudice" was "my opinion". It's based on my experience as a member.

 

It is one thing to base your belief about the existence of gay prejudice in the church on your experience as a member.  Quite another to say “gay prejudice” is the church’s motive for threatening to leave.  Sort of like saying those who leave the LDS church do so, IMO,  because they want to sin (based on my experience as a member, of course).  Just because someone who wanted to sin left the church, it doesn’t mean that was the reason he left.  

[TheSkepticChristian]

Please show that such a scout master exists.  You have given no evidence that it has happened.

 

I don't know, that is why I am asking, do Boy Scouts have a policy that allows unmarried leaders living with a woman? 

 

PS Do you objectively look at the evidence before believing anything? 

Edited August 22, 2015 by TheSkepticChristian

[rockpond]

So, in your view, the Scout oath to be “morally straight” is meaningless?

The WoW does not apply to non-Mormons. The commandment to keep the Sabbath day holy applies only to members of the Judeo-Christian religious tradition (and even within that tradition there have long been many different interpretations on just what that means).

IIRC, the BSA accepts members from all religious traditions. The scout oath does not require every member to live according to the specific precepts of any one church or religious tradition. But it does presuppose that there is a minimal standard of morality that applies to all. Otherwise, why not just change the scout oath from “keep myself morally straight” to “do whatever I feel is right?”

As I said in an earlier post:

No, the scout oath of "morally straight" is not meaningless. As you pointed out, some religious belief systems accept gay unions. The BSA has adjusted its policy to be open to troops sponsored by those churches.

Different belief systems didn't seem to ever be a reason to sever ties with the BSA, until it came to gays.

[rockpond]

What did you mean by “it has happened?” If you mean that somewhere, at some time, some troop probably had a scoutmaster who lived with his girlfriend, you are probably right. But if one is going to conclude that it “never seemed to present a problem for the church,” the relevant questions are:

1. Did the troop leadership know about it when they appointed him?

2. Was the BSA national organization aware of it at the time?

3. If the BSA national leadership knew and did nothing, did the LDS church know that they condoned it?

It is one thing to speculate that at some time, someone, somewhere, probably did something wrong. Quite another to conclude, without evidence, that the church knew about it ("it" being the speculation that such actually occurred) and decided to overlook it. Especially if that “someone” was not subject, even indirectly, to the church’s supervision. What you have is not just one speculation, but one speculation piled on top of another in order to reach the desired conclusion.

But even had the church known about it (again, “it” being the supposition that such misconduct did occur, and that BSA knew about it and condoned it), we would still be talking apples and oranges. The LDS church is not threatening to leave because some troops supposedly have gay scoutmasters, or even because it believes that BSA knows and does nothing. It threatened to leave only after BSA adopted a policy that formally approved the practice -- and even requiers other troops to be willing to accept gay scoutmasters (exempting only those troops sponsored by churches with faith based objections).

As far as I know, BSA has no formal policy that allows unmarried scoutmasters who live with their girlfriends, let alone one that prohibits “discrimination against” those who do.

To the beat of my knowledge, the BSA has no formal policy prohibiting heterosexual leaders who do not abide by our Law of Chastity. And that has never been a reason to terminate our affiliation... Until they decided open it up to homosexuals.

That's gay prejudice.

It's also probably why the Church won't end its relationship with the BSA.

[rockpond]

It is one thing to base your belief about the existence of gay prejudice in the church on your experience as a member. Quite another to say “gay prejudice” is the church’s motive for threatening to leave. Sort of like saying those who leave the LDS church do so, IMO, because they want to sin (based on my experience as a member, of course). Just because someone who wanted to sin left the church, it doesn’t mean that was the reason he left.

Well, I've explained my reasons as best I can. But I'll also reiterate that I don't think the Church will be leaving the BSA over this. We've been making that threat since the 90's and we've never actually followed through with it.

[Lightbearer]

As far as I am concerned BSA is not relevant to the Church and we do not need it as much as it needs us. I will not be supporting it financially and if my son chooses not to be in scouts I will not force him. The only worth of scouts to me why I was growing up is the time I spent with my Dad. I could have done that without scouting and I do not see it as part of the Church. Perhaps the Church could come up with a variarion called Pioneer scouts! But whatever the leadership of the Church decides I will abide by it.

[jwhitlock]

As far as I am concerned BSA is not relevant to the Church and we do not need it as much as it needs us. I will not be supporting it financially and if my son chooses not to be in scouts I will not force him. The only worth of scouts to me why I was growing up is the time I spent with my Dad. I could have done that without scouting and I do not see it as part of the Church. Perhaps the Church could come up with a variarion called Pioneer scouts! But whatever the leadership of the Church decides I will abide by it.

 

Nope. The Soviet Union had an organization for youth called Young Pioneers. I would think the church would stay away from "Pioneer" in the title.

[BCSpace]

4. A Viable Alternative to Scouting: I think there is a growing feeling among the Latter-day Saints that the Church could deploy a program as good or better than the Scouting program, and do so with far less expense, paperwork, bureaucracy, etc., and that this alternative has overshadowed the sentimentality about Scouting that has previously prevailed.

 

I think they could do a better program.  But I don't think they will.  Beside floods and poisoned fish, I predict going on trek and visiting Nauvoo will be requirements.

Edited August 23, 2015 by BCSpace

[Scott Lloyd]

Nope. The Soviet Union had an organization for youth called Young Pioneers. I would think the church would stay away from "Pioneer" in the title.

How about "Trailbuilders" with the sub categories of Blazers, Trekkers and Guide Patrol?

[KevinG]

Nope. The Soviet Union had an organization for youth called Young Pioneers. I would think the church would stay away from "Pioneer" in the title.

 

I have a young pioneer hat and bugle at home my parents brought back from Russia in the late 80s.  

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Please show that such a scout master exists.  You have given no evidence that it has happened.

This is called a red herring.

[Scott Lloyd]

Nope. The Soviet Union had an organization for youth called Young Pioneers. I would think the church would stay away from "Pioneer" in the title.

Interesting that the Young Pioneer organization should emerge in this thread.

 

As I understand it, the movement was modeled after Scouting but adapted by the Soviet government to better fit the Communist ideology -- which, of course, would remove from it any concept of religious devotion or "duty to God" as it were.

 

With the Scouting movement -- in the United States, at least -- becoming increasing secular and hostile to religion, I wonder if it is on the way to becoming very similar to the Young Pioneer movement.

 

What I think is happening, though, is that Scouting is headed toward its demise, as I don't believe gay advocacy groups have the will to support it once they have completed their hijacking of it.