Poll: Majority Of Utah Mormons Want Lds Church To Leave The Boy Scouts

[ERayR]

I read it on FB this morning... there were a few statements in it that immediately raised red flags.  I think it's either entirely false or had SOME true elements but had a bunch of crud written into it.  I'd say it's not even worth the time to google.

 

But then you have heard of curiosity and what it does to cats.

[rockpond]

Baden Powell's original Oath from 1908 did not include the phrase morally straight.

 

Oath Law On my honour I promise that:- 1. A Scout's honour is to be trusted. 1. I will do my duty to God and the King. 2. A Scout is Loyal to the King and to his officers, and to his country, and to his employers. 2. I will do my best to help others whatever it may cost me. 3. A Scout's duty is to be useful and to help others. 3. I know the scout law and will obey it. 4. A Scout is a friend to all and a brother to every other Scout, no matter to what social class the other belongs.   5. A Scout is Courteous.   6. A Scout is a friend to animals.   7. A Scout obeys orders of his patrol leader or scout master without question.   8. A Scout smiles and whistles under all circumstances.   9. A Scout is thrifty.

 

The BSA's initial Scout Law was virtually identical to that of Britain's and was first adopted on July 9, 1910. This version steadily changed until August 1, 1911 when the BSA's Scout Law took its current form.

 

A Scout is

trustworthy,

loyal,

helpful,

friendly,

courteous,

kind,

obedient,

cheerful,

thrifty,

brave,

clean, and

reverent.

 

And the Oath

 

On my honor I will do my best

To do my duty to God and my country

and to obey the Scout Law;

To help other people at all times;

To keep myself physically strong,

mentally awake, and morally straight.

 

Thanks for digging that up.  It confirms that "morally straight" was in the Scout Oath long before "straight" was being used in reference to one's sexual orientation.

[KevinG]

The idea that morally straight ever meant or means heterosexual is baloney.  

 

It may mean chaste to Mormons, and that is fine, but we don't dictate to Catholic Scouts what sacrament means, and we don't dictate to wiccan scouts what the nature of the Godhead is...  so I'm perfectly comfortable with LDS Troops dictating to only themselves what morally straight means for US, not others.

 

On the other hand we should be able to reserve standards of behavior for our own scouts, while respecting others, and not have to divorce after 102 years of a very productive and mutually beneficial relationship.  

 

I daresay the world would be worse off if the LDS Church takes an isolationist stance in the face of opposition from militant social warriors.

[Scott Lloyd]

I read it on FB this morning... there were a few statements in it that immediately raised red flags.  I think it's either entirely false or had SOME true elements but had a bunch of crud written into it.  I'd say it's not even worth the time to google.

I tend to think this as well.

 

The part about a "revelation" having been written in advance by attorneys to be ready to trot out once the courts threaten the non-profit status of the Church? That sounds like the sort of fanciful trash that might have been written by some of the gang over at the sty.

[Scott Lloyd]

Thanks for digging that up.  It confirms that "morally straight" was in the Scout Oath long before "straight" was being used in reference to one's sexual orientation.

I was born long before it was being used in reference to one's sexual orientation -- or at lest before it had come into general usage as such.

[ERayR]

The idea that morally straight ever meant or means heterosexual is baloney.  

 

It may mean chaste to Mormons, and that is fine, but we don't dictate to Catholic Scouts what sacrament means, and we don't dictate to wiccan scouts what the nature of the Godhead is...  so I'm perfectly comfortable with LDS Troops dictating to only themselves what morally straight means for US, not others.

 

On the other hand we should be able to reserve standards of behavior for our own scouts, while respecting others, and not have to divorce after 102 years of a very productive and mutually beneficial relationship.  

 

I daresay the world would be worse off if the LDS Church takes an isolationist stance in the face of opposition from militant social warriors.

 

The lines must be drawn somewhere or else no one can find the boundaries.

[Calm]

Dehlin did include a warning of the third-hand nature of the rumor.  But, in my opinion, he should not have even bothered to post it.  #clickbait or #LIKEbait (if that's a thing)

I would like to see evidence of the lawsuits against the Church that will or has caused some of its businesses to lose their nonprofit status that is being claimed.

[KevinG]

The lines must be drawn somewhere or else no one can find the boundaries.

 

Yes- but I'm in favor of the LDS troops drawing their own lines, and Baptist troops drawing their own lines, and Unitarian troops drawing their own lines.

 

The alternative is a religious war over the meaning of the Scout Oath and the eventual schism of the BSA. 

 

I resent being forced into this corner by groups who have no intent to replace the lost chartered organizations, or build the BSA in any way other than to sue because they disagree with us (BSA) but I'm worried we might throw the baby out with the bathwater if we throw in the towel over a single point of what chastity means.

[KevinG]

I would like to see evidence of the lawsuits against the Church that will or has caused some of its businesses to lose their nonprofit status that is being claimed.

 

The Church does not have nonprofit businesses.  Our businesses are under the corporation of the President and pay taxes.  The only true nonprofits would be something like BYU or the LDS Business College, who pay taxes in the same manner as other schools.

 

That revelation right there is an indication that this is bunk.

[ERayR]

Yes- but I'm in favor of the LDS troops drawing their own lines, and Baptist troops drawing their own lines, and Unitarian troops drawing their own lines.

 

The alternative is a religious war over the meaning of the Scout Oath and the eventual schism of the BSA. 

 

I resent being forced into this corner by groups who have no intent to replace the lost chartered organizations, or build the BSA in any way other than to sue because they disagree with us (BSA) but I'm worried we might throw the baby out with the bathwater if we throw in the towel over a single point of what chastity means.

 

And if that line means the Church withdraws from Scouts?

[KevinG]

And if that line means the Church withdraws from Scouts?

 

That is the decision that will have to be made.

 

I will be heartbroken, but sustain the brethren.  I will serve when called into the YM program, but probably still enjoy my activities with the local Venture Crew and OA.

 

Given the deep tendrils the BSA and LDS YM programs have in each other, I suspect many leaders (at least in my generation) may try to split their time just like me.  A worthwhile program does not have to be LDS or conform to all of our standards.  We will see if gay scout leaders is enough of a moral issue for the brethren and the Lord to enact a divorce from the BSA.  I'm glad I'm not the General YM President.

[rockpond]

I would like to see evidence of the lawsuits against the Church that will or has caused some of its businesses to lose their nonprofit status that is being claimed.

 

Yup... that was a huge red flag for me.  I think we would have heard already if that had happened.

[Scott Lloyd]

Yup... that was a huge red flag for me.  I think we would have heard already if that had happened.

I wondered if what was meant was that the Church's ownership of commercial businesses that discriminate would become occasion to threaten its own non-profit status as a Church.

 

But I think rockpond is right in that the whole rumor is hardly worth any attention at all.

[Calm]

The Church does not have nonprofit businesses.  Our businesses are under the corporation of the President and pay taxes.  

I think that is one of the problems with his rumor, but I suppose they could have been talking about something like Church Distribution or LDS Family Services considering how many critics are prone to call the Church itself a business.

[Calm]

I wondered if what was meant was that the Church's ownership of commercial businesses that discriminate would become occasion to threaten its own non-profit status as a Church.

It wasn't well written.  However, whatever they meant, considering that the claim was the Church was moving to and consolidating its business in SLC because of litigation, it hardly seems likely the choice to move there would be made on lawsuits that aren't even being discussed by serious contenders....so they or the threats to sue should be easily found.

Edited August 24, 2015 by calmoriah

[ALarson]

I would like to see evidence of the lawsuits against the Church that will or has caused some of its businesses to lose their nonprofit status that is being claimed.

I'd have to read it again, but I don't think it stated there were church owned non profit businesses that were worried about loosing their tax exempt status, only that the church was worried about loosing this status.  I'll read it again though.  

 

ETA:

After reading it, I do think Dehlin meant that the church is worried about loosing their non profit status, not that the church owns businesses that are non profit. It certainly could have been stated better.   

Edited August 24, 2015 by ALarson

[Jeanne]

Baden Powell's original Oath from 1908 did not include the phrase morally straight.

 

Oath Law On my honour I promise that:- 1. A Scout's honour is to be trusted. 1. I will do my duty to God and the King. 2. A Scout is Loyal to the King and to his officers, and to his country, and to his employers. 2. I will do my best to help others whatever it may cost me. 3. A Scout's duty is to be useful and to help others. 3. I know the scout law and will obey it. 4. A Scout is a friend to all and a brother to every other Scout, no matter to what social class the other belongs.   5. A Scout is Courteous.   6. A Scout is a friend to animals.   7. A Scout obeys orders of his patrol leader or scout master without question.   8. A Scout smiles and whistles under all circumstances.   9. A Scout is thrifty.

 

The BSA's initial Scout Law was virtually identical to that of Britain's and was first adopted on July 9, 1910. This version steadily changed until August 1, 1911 when the BSA's Scout Law took its current form.

 

A Scout is

trustworthy,

loyal,

helpful,

friendly,

courteous,

kind,

obedient,

cheerful,

thrifty,

brave,

clean, and

reverent.

 

And the Oath

 

On my honor I will do my best

To do my duty to God and my country

and to obey the Scout Law;

To help other people at all times;

To keep myself physically strong,

mentally awake, and morally straight.

Well bingo..I know a lot of gay family who qualify and are great scouts! 

[KevinG]

Well bingo..I know a lot of gay family who qualify and are great scouts! 

 

I suspect I've worked with plenty of gay Scouters through the years.  My primary concern is not if they are gay or "straight" but that they are openly "Scout".

 

There are no winners in the war between those who believe the BSA should be a direct mirror of their Church and those who would destroy the BSA if they won't agree to accommodate a few gay members.

[ERayR]

Well bingo..I know a lot of gay family who qualify and are great scouts! 

 

So do I but that is irrelevant when it comes to Church standards.  So many here seem to think the standards of the world are relevant to the Church. 

 

 

I suspect I've worked with plenty of gay Scouters through the years.  My primary concern is not if they are gay or "straight" but that they are openly "Scout".

 

There are no winners in the war between those who believe the BSA should be a direct mirror of their Church and those who would destroy the BSA if they won't agree to accommodate a few gay members.

 

I don't see them thinking that scouts should be a mirror of the Church but when the Church and scouting is no longer a good fit then separation should take place. 

[rockpond]

Here is Robert Kirby's take on the poll cited in the OP (for those who enjoy such things).

[ALarson]

Here is Robert Kirby's take on the poll cited in the OP (for those who enjoy such things).

Great article.  I like this:

 

It's a safe bet that many if not most of that 63 percent want to see the separation because of the BSA's new acceptance of openly gay men as scout leaders. After all, who knows what might happen when gay men are put in charge of taking young Scouts into the woods?

I'm betting nothing but scouting.

 

[TheSkepticChristian]

I don't see them thinking that scouts should be a mirror of the Church but when the Church and scouting is no longer a good fit then separation should take place. 

.

If the decision of the Boy Scouts is a bad thing, why didn't the church seperate immediately? What is taking our church so long?

 

Our church leaders should have made a decision before the Boy Scouts made their decision because God knows the thoughts and hearts of men.

 

So to be clear, are wards still following the scout program? I don't know because there is no active youth in my ward, and I haven't heard anything. 

 

The church stated

 

 

In spite of a request to delay the vote, it was scheduled at a time in July when members of the Church’s governing councils are out of their offices and do not meet

 

Not helping me at all, where is the gift of discernment about such an inmportant issue? However, I am still hopeful that the church is true.

Edited August 26, 2015 by TheSkepticChristian

[rockpond]

.

If the decision of the Boy Scouts is a bad thing, why didn't the church seperate immediately? What is taking our church so long?

 

Our church leaders should have made a decision before the Boy Scouts made their decision because God knows the thoughts and hearts of men.

 

So to be clear, are wards still following the scout program? I don't know because there is no active youth in my ward, and I haven't heard anything. 

 

The church stated

 

 

Not helping me at all, where is the gift of discernment about such an inmportant issue? However, I am still hopeful that the church is true.

 

Church leadership had ample time to consider the impact of the July 27 vote.  They've essentially had it on the radar since the early 90's.

 

Now we've seen that their decision is to continue with the BSA.  No change, as expected.  I continue to believe that the MormonNewsroom.org release immediately following the BSA exec council vote was not properly vetted.

[Ares]

Closing this.  The discussion can be continued in the new LDS Church BSA Thread.