Poll: Majority Of Utah Mormons Want Lds Church To Leave The Boy Scouts

[KevinG]

I hope you are wrong about its demise Scott.   I have seen Boy Scouts of wildly varying religious traditions agree on Duty To God being important.  How they express that, even if it is simply recognizing a higher power, is up to the individual.

 

While I do not like the National BSA "punting" the threat of lawsuits and protests to individual units, I still see a BSA that can profit American Youth by teaching:

 

Honor

Duty to God

Duty to Country

Helping Others (Service)

Physical, Mental and Spiritual health

Trustworthy,

Loyal,

Helpful,

Friendly,

Courteous,

Kind,

Obedient,

Cheerful,

Thrifty,

Brave,

Clean,

and Reverent.

 

Without dictating exactly what each of those items means for individual an organizations.

 

Certainly an LDS sponsored troop will differ from their interpretation of Duty to God than a group of Wiccans.  But there is room for both.  Likewise a troop from San Fransisco with openly Gay leaders can differ on what morally straight or clean means from a Baptist troop, but they can all strive to better themselves.

 

Having said that - I still resent the use of lawfare and coercive tactics being used by organizations who have no real stake in the future of the BSA, to enact changes in National policy and threaten to continue that lawfare against individual units sponsored by churches.

[ALarson]

I just read an interesting post that was made by John Dehlin today stating he has inside information and predictions regarding the church's future with the BSA.  I don't know if it can be posted here or if that violates board rules?

[KevinG]

I just read an interesting post that was made by John Dehlin today stating he has inside information and predictions regarding the church's future with the BSA.  I don't know if it can be posted here or if that violates board rules?

 

You had me at "John Dehlin...has inside information..."

 

[Scott Lloyd]

I just read an interesting post that was made by John Dehlin today stating he has inside information and predictions regarding the church's future with the BSA.  I don't know if it can be posted here or if that violates board rules?

If it can't be posted here, can you PM me with the link? I'd be interested to see what he says.

 

Edited to add:

 

Never mind. I found it on Facebook.

Edited August 24, 2015 by Scott Lloyd

[KevinG]

Oh do tell!  What are the highlights?

 

Did John's super secret morocco mole church authority friend smuggle him the transcript from the last General Young Men's Presidency strategic planning retreat?

[ERayR]

If it can't be posted here, can you PM me with the link? I'd be interested to see what he says.

 

Edited to add:

 

Never mind. I found it on Facebook.

 

Come on Scott we are all waiting for John's insight.

[Scott Lloyd]

Come on Scott we are all waiting for John's insight.

I found it easily with Google.

 

But bear in mind that Dehlin has a history of spreading unfounded rumors. And even he says this is third-hand and he has no idea if this one is credible.

Edited August 24, 2015 by Scott Lloyd

[ALarson]

I found it easily with Google.

 

But bear in mind that Dehlin has a history of spreading unfounded rumors. And even he says this is third-hand and he has no idea if this one is credible.

Sorry, I was away from my computer or I would have PMd you with it.  There's a thread about other inside info on another forum and it contains the link to John Dehlin's statement.  I just wasn't sure if I could link to another board here?

 

Do you want the link for the discussion?  I can still PM you that if you'd like.

 

I don't follow Dehlin, but his statement is pretty interesting.  We'll see if things proceed as he predicts or heard they would.

Edited August 24, 2015 by ALarson

[Scott Lloyd]

Sorry, I was away from my computer or I would have PMd you with it.  There's a thread about other inside info on another forum and it contains the link to John Dehlin's statement.  I just wasn't sure if I could link to another board here?

 

Do you want the link for the discussion?  I can still PM you that if you'd like.

 

I don't follow Dehlin, but his statement is pretty interesting.  We'll see if things proceed as he predicts or heard they would.

If it's different from what's on the Facebook post, yes, I'd be interested.

[ALarson]

If it's different from what's on the Facebook post, yes, I'd be interested.

That's the statement I read.

[ERayR]

I found it easily with Google.

 

But bear in mind that Dehlin has a history of spreading unfounded rumors. And even he says this is third-hand and he has no idea if this one is credible.

 

I do not do Facebook.

[Stone holm]

No, the scout oath of "morally straight" is not meaningless. As you pointed out, some religious belief systems accept gay unions. The BSA has adjusted its policy to be open to troops sponsored by those churches.

Different belief systems didn't seem to ever be a reason to sever ties with the BSA, until it came to gays.

Yeah, I wonder what "morally straight" actually meant at the time the oath was conceived, I suspect that back then when the word "gay" meant happy or lighthearted and before "straight" was used in opposition to "gay" may or may not have had the implication we would take from it today. Edited August 24, 2015 by Stone holm

[Scott Lloyd]

I do not do Facebook.

But does that mean a Google search won't take you there?

[KevinG]

Webster's Unabridged Dictionary 1913 edition (the same year the LDS Church started their relationship with the BSA):

 

Straight (Page: 1421)

Straight (?), a. A variant of Strait, a. [Obs. or R.]

Egypt is a long country, but it is 

straight

, that is to say, narrow. 

Sir J. Mandeville.

Straight (Page: 1421)

Straight, a. [Compar. Straighter (?); superl. Straightest.] [OE. streit, properly p.p. of strecchen to stretch, AS. streht, p.p. of streccan to stretch, to extend. See Stretch.]

1. Right, in a mathematical sense; passing from one point to another by the nearest course; direct; not deviating or crooked; as, a straight line or course; a straight piece of timber.

And the crooked shall be made 

straight

. 

Isa. xl. 4.

There are many several sorts of crooked lines, but there is only one which is 

straight

. 

Dryden.

2. (Bot.) Approximately straight; not much curved; as, straight ribs are such as pass from the base of a leaf to the apex, with a small curve.

3. (Card Playing) Composed of cards which constitute a regular sequence, as the ace, king, queen, jack, and ten-spot; as, a straight hand; a straight flush. <-- previously called also sequence, which see. -->

4. Conforming to justice and rectitude; not deviating from truth or fairness; upright; as, straight dealing.

5. Unmixed; undiluted; as, to take liquor straight. [slang]

6. Making no exceptions or deviations in one's support of the organization and candidates of a political party; as, a straight Republican; a straight Democrat; also, containing the names of all the regularly nominated candidates of a party and no others; as, a straight ballot. [Political Cant, U.S.] Straight arch (Arch.), a form of arch in which the intrados is straight, but with its joints drawn radially, as in a common arch. -- A straight face, one giving no evidence of merriment or other emotion. -- A straight line. That which lies evenly between its extreme points." Euclid. The shortest line between two points." Chauvenet. A line which has the same direction through its whole length." Newcomb. -- Straight-way valve, a valve which, when opened widely, affords a straight passageway, as for water. <-- the straight and narrow, proper ethical conduct; -- used esp. in the phrase walk the straight and narrow. -->

Straight (Page: 1421)

Straight (?), adv. In a straight manner; directly; rightly; forthwith; immediately; as, the arrow went straight to the mark. Floating straight." Shak.

I know thy generous temper well; Fling but the appearance of dishonor on it, It 

straight

 takes fire, and mounts into a blaze. 

Addison.

Everything was going on 

straight

. 

W. Black.

Straight (Page: 1421)

Straight, n. (Poker) A hand of five cards in consecutive order as to value; a sequence. When they are of one suit, it is calles straight flush.

Straight (Page: 1421)

Straight, v. t. To straighten. [R.] A Smith.

Displaying 1 result(s) from the 1828 edition:

STRAIGHT, a. [L., formed from the root of reach, stretch, right. It is customary to write straight, for direct or right, and strait, for narrow, but this is a practice wholly arbitrary, both being the same word. Strait we use in the sense in which it is used in the south of Europe. Both sense proceed from stretching, straining.]

 

1. Right, in a mathematical sense; direct; passing from one point to another by the nearest course; not deviating or crooked; as a straight line; a straight course; a straight piece of timber.

 

2. Narrow; close; tight; as a straight garment. [see strait, as it is generally written.]

 

3. Upright; according with justice and rectitude; not deviating from truth or fairness.

STRAIGHT, adv. Immediately; directly; in the shortest time.

 

  I know thy generous temper well; fling but the appearance of dishonor on it, it straight takes fire, and mounts into a blaze.    

[ERayR]

But does that mean a Google search won't take you there?

 

A google search shows the link but you have to have a Facebook account to open it.  Not a problem.

[ERayR]

A google search shows the link but you have to have a Facebook account to open it.  Not a problem.

 

I got this one but before when I have tried it wouldn't let me.  Thanks.

[ALarson]

I got this one but before when I have tried it wouldn't let me.  Thanks.

I PMd you a link that should work.

[rockpond]

Yeah, I wonder what "morally straight" actually meant at the time the oath was conceived, I suspect that back then when the word "gay" meant happy or lighthearted and before "straight" was used in opposition to "gay" may or may not have had the implication we would take from it today.

 

I tried to do a search for origins of "straight"... I can't find anything conclusive but it seems that straight started being used to describe heterosexual people in the latter half of the 20th century.

 

I don't see any reason to believe that "morally straight" in the scout oath refers to sexual orientation.

[ERayR]

I PMd you a link that should work.

 

Thanks

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

 

 

But bear in mind that Dehlin has a history of spreading unfounded rumors.

Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo. You don't say.

[rockpond]

I just read an interesting post that was made by John Dehlin today stating he has inside information and predictions regarding the church's future with the BSA.  I don't know if it can be posted here or if that violates board rules?

 

I read it on FB this morning... there were a few statements in it that immediately raised red flags.  I think it's either entirely false or had SOME true elements but had a bunch of crud written into it.  I'd say it's not even worth the time to google.

[ERayR]

I tried to do a search for origins of "straight"... I can't find anything conclusive but it seems that straight started being used to describe heterosexual people in the latter half of the 20th century.

 

I don't see any reason to believe that "morally straight" in the scout oath refers to sexual orientation.

 

A long, long time ago when I was in scouts morally straight was taught as being honest with people and making correct decisions.

[KevinG]

Baden Powell's original Oath from 1908 did not include the phrase morally straight.

 

Oath Law On my honour I promise that:- 1. A Scout's honour is to be trusted. 1. I will do my duty to God and the King. 2. A Scout is Loyal to the King and to his officers, and to his country, and to his employers. 2. I will do my best to help others whatever it may cost me. 3. A Scout's duty is to be useful and to help others. 3. I know the scout law and will obey it. 4. A Scout is a friend to all and a brother to every other Scout, no matter to what social class the other belongs.   5. A Scout is Courteous.   6. A Scout is a friend to animals.   7. A Scout obeys orders of his patrol leader or scout master without question.   8. A Scout smiles and whistles under all circumstances.   9. A Scout is thrifty.

 

The BSA's initial Scout Law was virtually identical to that of Britain's and was first adopted on July 9, 1910. This version steadily changed until August 1, 1911 when the BSA's Scout Law took its current form.

 

A Scout is

trustworthy,

loyal,

helpful,

friendly,

courteous,

kind,

obedient,

cheerful,

thrifty,

brave,

clean, and

reverent.

 

And the Oath

 

On my honor I will do my best
To do my duty to God and my country
and to obey the Scout Law;
To help other people at all times;
To keep myself physically strong,
mentally awake, and morally straight.

[rockpond]

I found it easily with Google.

 

But bear in mind that Dehlin has a history of spreading unfounded rumors. And even he says this is third-hand and he has no idea if this one is credible.

 

Dehlin did include a warning of the third-hand nature of the rumor.  But, in my opinion, he should not have even bothered to post it.  #clickbait or #LIKEbait (if that's a thing)

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

I tried to do a search for origins of "straight"... I can't find anything conclusive but it seems that straight started being used to describe heterosexual people in the latter half of the 20th century.

 

I don't see any reason to believe that "morally straight" in the scout oath refers to sexual orientation.

It refers to morals and morality. Those morals generally go in line with the law of chastity. IE, Having a high moral standard.