Poll: Majority Of Utah Mormons Want Lds Church To Leave The Boy Scouts

[smac97]

Here:

Nearly two-thirds of “very active” Utah members of the LDS Church believe their church leaders should separate from the Boy Scouts and start a new male youth organization, a UtahPolicy survey shows.

In a just-completed survey, pollster Dan Jones & Associates finds that 63 percent of those who termed themselves “very active” in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints -- both men and women -- say church leaders “definitely” or “probably” should drop the long-standing relationship with the Boy Scouts of America and start their own program for boys.

Jones finds that only 23 percent of “very active” Utah Mormons want their church to stay in the Boy Scout program, while 13 percent don’t know.

So, two-thirds say get out of the Boy Scouts, while one-fourth say stay in.
...
Jones polled 500 adult Utahns between Aug. 7-14; with a margin of error of plus or minus 4.99 percent.

Among all Utahns, Jones found that 32 percent favor the LDS Church staying in the Boy Scout program, 54 percent said church leaders should leave the Boy Scouts and form a new, separate organization for young men in their faith.

Among those who told Jones they are “somewhat active” in the LDS Church, 44 percent said stay in the scouts, 47 percent said get out and 9 percent didn’t know.

Those who said they were once active Mormons, but no longer practice the faith, 46 percent said stay in, 47 percent said get out of scouting, and 7 percent didn’t know.

Catholics said Mormons should stay in scouting, 47-42 percent; Protestants said get out, 28-49 percent; with those who said they have no religion said Mormons should remain in scouting, 46-32 percent.

The “very active” Mormons would be those who attend their church regularly, practice the faith’s doctrine and pay 10 percent of their gross incomes to the church – all of which allow those Mormons to attend their temples (closed to non-active Mormons) and participate in temple ceremonies.

 

I was quite surprised at these figures.  I think 63% if active Latter-day Saints wanting to ditch scouting is not merely a majority, but a significant majority.  I had thought there might be a lot of residual sentimentality for Scouting amongst the Saints which would have led folks to prefer to stick it out with the BSA.  I guess not.

 

In retrospect, I think there are probably a few factors that have led up to this:

 

1. Friends of Scouting: Friends of Scouting seems to be a singularly unpopular thing in the Church (in my neck of the woods, anyway).  

 

2. Expense/Hassle: Resentment of FoS, and hence of Scouting and the BSA generally, has likely been exacerbated by past and ongoing news coverage about salaries for BSA executives ($176,336 for Rick Barnes, Scout executive of the Great Salt Lake Council, in 2010, $598,300 in 2007 for Roy Williams, chief scout executive with the Boy Scouts of America National Council, which was part of a retirement package for him worth a total of $1.6 million, etc.).  We've been in an economic downturn for many years now, so exorbitant salaries drawn from "voluntary" FoS drives has, I think, soured a lot of people on Scouting.  Also, the unnecessarily steep cost of scouting paraphernalia (shirts, merit badges, etc.) (see, e.g., here and here), together with the bureaucratic hassles of running a Scouting organization, have likely been rubbing folks the wrong way for quite a while now.

 

3. The BSA's Recent Capitulation: The BSA's recent capitulation on homosexual scoutmasters, the continuing explicit threat of litigation by gay rights groups against the BSA (see here and here) until it utterly capitulates on this issue, is perhaps the strongest factor here.

 

4. A Viable Alternative to Scouting: I think there is a growing feeling among the Latter-day Saints that the Church could deploy a program as good or better than the Scouting program, and do so with far less expense, paperwork, bureaucracy, etc., and that this alternative has overshadowed the sentimentality about Scouting that has previously prevailed.

 

What do you think?  What factors likely contribute to what appears to be an abrupt and profound change in sentiment and opinion amongst LDS Utahns toward Scouting?

 

Also, do you think these sentiments are reflected by Latter-day Saints outside of Utah?

 

Thanks,

 

-Smac

Edited August 17, 2015 by smac97

[HappyJackWagon]

I wish the poll would have asked a follow up question for those who felt the church should drop scouting...Why?

 

-Expense?

-lack of long term program viability

-gay issue

Etc.

 

It would also be helpful to know if this is a representative geographic sample. They say "Utah Mormons" but is that proportionate to the Uintah Basin, & Salt Lake or Utah County, Casche Valley, Washington County etc. In other words, a sample size of 500 doesn't mean a ton to me if I can't see there was some effort to get a diverse geographic representation.

 

I see the underlying issue most people want out of scouting is the expense. The gay issue is the "final straw" or scapegoat reason to get out without looking cheap.

[KevinG]

I think divorcing ourselves from a program that is largely worthwhile (despite a politically policy change that has almost no effect on the ground in most districts) and attempting to replace it with home grown programs will be disastrous for our youth programs in the short term, and bad for them in the long term.

 

Some of the things we will miss (and in LDS troops sometimes miss anyway):

 

Exposure to other faiths

Exposure to other cultures

Use of facilities and grounds held by the BSA

Partnerships with other youth leaders 

100 year old traditions of Honor, Faith, Duty to God, Duty to Country

 

to name a few.

 

The expense of trying to do it all on our own will pale in comparison to the current expense of partnering with the BSA.  

Edited August 17, 2015 by KevinG

[Scott Lloyd]

Very interesting, though I didn't find it surprising, due to the very factors you cite in your post.

 

Still, it's enlightening to have hard numbers.

 

I have a degree of residual sentimentality for the Scouting movement, due to the experience I had with it in my youth (I think I mentioned that in a thread the other day) but the affection is not enough to overcome the resentment I feel over the excesses of Friends of Scouting and the expenditure of the funds, plus the recent capitulation with the gay advocacy movement, and my very real expectation that the day will come, probably very soon, when all chartering entities, including the religious ones, will be forced to admit volunteer leaders whose lifestyles are not consistent with the entities' values.

 

In short, I am grateful for what Scouting has meant to me, but I recognize that this is a new day with new conditions and circumstances, and the Church must respond appropriately.

 

Edited to add:

 

I don't think the change in sentiment has been as abrupt as you think it is. I believe there has been a simmering resentment over Friends of Scouting for quite a while now that has only been held in check by the desire to support what the Church leaders say is best for the Church.

Edited August 17, 2015 by Scott Lloyd

[Scott Lloyd]

I wish the poll would have asked a follow up question for those who felt the church should drop scouting...Why?

 

-Expense?

-lack of long term program viability

-gay issue

Etc.

 

It would also be helpful to know if this is a representative geographic sample. They say "Utah Mormons" but is that proportionate to the Uintah Basin, & Salt Lake or Utah County, Casche Valley, Washington County etc. In other words, a sample size of 500 doesn't mean a ton to me if I can't see there was some effort to get a diverse geographic representation.

 

I see the underlying issue most people want out of scouting is the expense. The gay issue is the "final straw" or scapegoat reason to get out without looking cheap.

Dan Jones has been doing polls in Utah for a long, long time and is very good at scientific sampling techniques. In local political polling, Dan Jones and Associates is the gold standard. Time and again, their polls prove to be the most accurate.

[Daniel2]

Clearly, it's provoked almost entirely because the BSA has allowed individual units to hire scoutmasters that reflect the values of the individual units--which would mean that some units allow gay leaders.

 

The other listed criticisms you (and others) have mentioned are tangential, and, while entirely valid in their own right, have only emerged as complaints to the degree they now have because of the above-mentioned development.

 

I was raised overseas in the American Military community.  BSA was part of our military communities, but never a part of our international english-speaking branches, and I think the international diversity of our youth programs was all the stronger because of it.

 

In my professional career, I've never felt disadvantaged because of not being an eagle scout.

 

I think that if Mormons want to end their relationship with Scouting, they should do so.

 

Mormonism will do just fine.

 

Scouting, ironically like many religions, will continue to try to adapt and reinvent itself to stay relevant, even as it continues to slowly decline (as it has been doing so for quite some time, due to the changing cultural interests of today's and future generations).

[Scott Lloyd]

I think divorcing ourselves from a program that is largely worthwhile (despite a politically policy change that has almost no effect on the ground in most districts) and attempting to replace it with home grown programs will be disastrous for our youth programs in the short term, and bad for them in the long term.

 

Some of the things we will miss (and in LDS troops sometimes miss anyway):

 

Exposure to other faiths

Exposure to other cultures

Use of facilities and grounds held by the BSA

Partnerships with other youth leaders 

100 year old traditions of Honor, Faith, Duty to God, Duty to Country

 

to name a few.

 

The expense of trying to do it all on our own will pale in comparison to the current expense of partnering with the BSA.  

Consider the fact that there will no longer be a need to pay the six-figure salaries of BSA corporate exeuctives or fund their corporate jets or other perqs.

 

The infrastructure is already in place through the stakes and wards of the Church, and the positions will at long-last be all volunteer.

 

Time will tell, of course, but to say the transition out of BSA will be "disastrous" or bad for our youth in the short or long term strikes me as absurd hand-wringing.

[Daniel2]

In contrast to Scott's prophecy, I predict that no chartering entities, including the religious ones, will ever be forced to admit volunteer leaders whose lifestyles are not consistent with the entities' values.

 

Rather, it appears that most anti-gay religious chartering entities will leave the organization entirely, therefore making any attempts to sue an anti-gay troop obsolete, and therefore the spirit (if not the letter, eventually) of the the BSA's current policy allowing local chartering agencies to only admit leaders that reflect the entities' values will remain in tact, because no anti-gay entities will be left, anyway.

 

If the BSA survives the next 50 years, troops will look back at the historical exclusion of gay scouts in the same fashion that troops today look back at the historical exclusion of black scouts.

Edited August 17, 2015 by Daniel2

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

I vote for the church to sever ties for several reason, most or all have already been discussed.

[KevinG]

There was a lot of discussion at the National Order of the Arrow Conference a couple weeks ago in Michigan.  Discussion about the folly of standing on some traditions at the cost of our fundamental principles and mission.  This from National Chief Alex Call is worth watching...

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=428&v=gUnPHW1AOHo

 

I have given it much thought.  Much more than the average Utah valley citizen I suspect, being a non-LDS Crew leader and a faithful Saint.

 

If we are to throw away the great traditions and principles of Scouting over arguments of what it means to be morally straight, especially when we can guide that for our own units, and in light of the fact that we don't limit faith in God to a particular religion... then we may be sacrificing more than we protect.

[Scott Lloyd]

In contrast to Scott's prophecy, I predict that no chartering entities, including the religious ones, will ever be forced to admit volunteer leaders whose lifestyles are not consistent with the entities' values.

 

Rather, it appears that most anti-gay religious chartering entities will leave the organization entirely, therefore making any attempts to sue an anti-gay troop obsolete, and therefore the spirit (if not the letter) of the the BSA's current policy allowing local chartering agencies to only admit leaders that reflect the entities' values will remain in tact, because no anti-gay entities will be left, anyway.

So in other words, the traditionalists will be pressured out of the Scouting movement, thus obviating the need to force them to accept requirements they don't want.

 

I call that a distinction without a difference.

[juliann]

I think divorcing ourselves from a program that is largely worthwhile (despite a politically policy change that has almost no effect on the ground in most districts) and attempting to replace it with home grown programs will be disastrous for our youth programs in the short term, and bad for them in the long term.

 

Some of the things we will miss (and in LDS troops sometimes miss anyway):

 

Exposure to other faiths

Exposure to other cultures

Use of facilities and grounds held by the BSA

Partnerships with other youth leaders 

100 year old traditions of Honor, Faith, Duty to God, Duty to Country

 

to name a few.

 

The expense of trying to do it all on our own will pale in comparison to the current expense of partnering with the BSA.  

 

They simply need to convert the girls programs for boys. None of this is important or surely the girls would have been doing it.

[Scott Lloyd]

I vote for the church to sever ties for several reason, most or all have already been discussed.

I think the reasons are all on the table and pretty obvious at this point.

[ALarson]

Quote from the article:

So, two-thirds say get out of the Boy Scouts, while one-fourth say stay in.

 

I don't see how that's accurate.  54% stated that they felt the church should definitely continue a relationship with the BSA, probably should, or didn't know.

Only 29% stated that the church should definitely leave the BSA (who are the only ones saying to "get out" that I can see here.).  That's not two-thirds.

 

I honestly don't care either way, but it seems an odd way to state the results.

Edited August 17, 2015 by ALarson

[Scott Lloyd]

They simply need to convert the girls programs for boys. None of this is important or surely the girls would have been doing it.

The boys have the Duty to God program that could easily be expanded to fill any void.

 

If there were to be more of an amalgamation of the girls' program with the boys' I would support that.

[smac97]

I think divorcing ourselves from a program that is largely worthwhile (despite a politically policy change that has almost no effect on the ground in most districts) and attempting to replace it with home grown programs will be disastrous for our youth programs in the short term, and bad for them in the long term.

 

Some of the things we will miss (and in LDS troops sometimes miss anyway):

 

Exposure to other faiths

Exposure to other cultures

Use of facilities and grounds held by the BSA

Partnerships with other youth leaders 

100 year old traditions of Honor, Faith, Duty to God, Duty to Country

 

to name a few.

 

The expense of trying to do it all on our own will pale in comparison to the current expense of partnering with the BSA.

> Exposure to other faiths

 

==There are all sorts of ways we can achieve this.

 

> Exposure to other cultures

 

==In Scouting?

 

> Use of facilities and grounds held by the BSA

 

==As I understand it, the Church has already had some negotiations with the BSA about using BSA facilities, and the BSA is eager to have the Church as a tenant.

 

> Partnerships with other youth leaders

 

==I'm not sure what you mean by this.

 

> 100 year old traditions of Honor, Faith, Duty to God, Duty to Country

 

==True.  But new traditions can be developed as well.

 

Thanks,

 

-Smac

Edited August 17, 2015 by smac97

[KevinG]

Consider the fact that there will no longer be a need to pay the six-figure salaries of BSA corporate exeuctives or fund their corporate jets or other perqs.

 

The infrastructure is already in place through the stakes and wards of the Church, and the positions will at long-last be all volunteer.

 

Time will tell, of course, but to say the transition out of BSA will be "disastrous" or bad for our youth in the short or long term strikes me as absurd hand-wringing.

 

The infrastructure is not in place.  No camps, no merit badge classes and standards, no advancement program, no regional or national support...  Not even a standardized medical release.

 

The organization exists for priesthood but not activities like Scouting.  When left to its own devices I've seen Young Men's programs turn into Wednesday evening basketball league too many times.  We will lose a generation of young men learning first aid, fishing, firearms, wilderness survivial, etc.  Only those who have experienced Scouters or other outdoors types in their wards will get it, the rest will play basketball.

[KevinG]

They simply need to convert the girls programs for boys. None of this is important or surely the girls would have been doing it.

 

I'd rather convert the Young Women's programs to Scouting...  Of course my youngest is in the Venture Crew (non-LDS) with her big brothers.  

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

I think the reasons are all on the table and pretty obvious at this point.

I concur.

[Scott Lloyd]

Quote from the article:

I don't see how that's accurate.  54% stated that they felt the church should definitely continue a relationship with the BSA, probably should, or didn't know.

Only 29% stated that the church should definitely leave the BSA (who are the only ones saying to "get out" that I can see here.).  That's not two-thirds.

 

I honestly don't care either way, but it seems an odd way to state the results.

Smac was talking about the Church members who are "very active." The numbers are different when other categories are included.

[KevinG]

The LDS Youth activities tend to be very insular.  In fact we are so wrapped up in LDS activities and programs it is hard to co-exist with district and national scouting programs.  I'm not convinced we do a good job of exposing our youth to other cultures and people of different beliefs prior to missionary age without partnerships with programs like Scouting.

 

If you thing the LDS Church should separate ties because of the liberalization of BSA national policy on sexual orientation of leaders that is at least intellectually honest.

 

But the money thing (BSA executives salaries are not out of range for other non-profits their size), the time thing (the LDS Church benefits more from Scout programs than they could do themselves, or the YW inequity thing (I've seen wards whose YW were better campers than the YM)... are not really strong reasons.

[Scott Lloyd]

 

> 100 year old traditions of Honor, Faith, Duty to God, Duty to Country

 

==True.  But new traditions can be developed as well.

 

Thanks,

 

-Smac

Underlying values are the substance on which traditions are built. Fortunately, such values are transferable to other traditions.

[smac97]

In contrast to Scott's prophecy, I predict that no chartering entities, including the religious ones, will ever be forced to admit volunteer leaders whose lifestyles are not consistent with the entities' values.

I am curious as to what you think of A) the Human Rights Campaign explicitly stating that the Boy Scouts should not allow church-sponsored units to continue excluding gays; B) Lambda Legal's skepticism that whether the BSA's new policy to let church-sponsored units continue to exclude gay adults would be sustainable (same link); and C) Lambda's threat to continue filing lawsuits designed to make church-sponsored scouting units "increasingly marginalized" (same link).

 

Your prediction seems to be quite at odds with the publicly-stated intentions of powerful factions of the Gay Rights Movement.

 

Thank you,

 

-Smac

[Senator]

What factors likely contribute to what appears to be an abrupt and profound change in sentiment and opinion amongst LDS Utahns toward Scouting?

Abrupt? What makes you think there has been an abrupt change in sentiment?

Of all my associations in the church throughout the years, I would say the percentage is indicative of how members have always felt.

[Scott Lloyd]

The LDS Youth activities tend to be very insular.  In fact we are so wrapped up in LDS activities and programs it is hard to co-exist with district and national scouting programs.  I'm not convinced we do a good job of exposing our youth to other cultures and people of different beliefs prior to missionary age without partnerships with programs like Scouting.

 

If you thing the LDS Church should separate ties because of the liberalization of BSA national policy on sexual orientation of leaders that is at least intellectually honest.

 

But the money thing (BSA executives salaries are not out of range for other non-profits their size), the time thing (the LDS Church benefits more from Scout programs than they could do themselves, or the YW inequity thing (I've seen wards whose YW were better campers than the YM)... are not really strong reasons.

It doesn't matter if BSA execs draw competitive salaries. If we can get the job done without having to pay those six-figure salaries, it's all to the good.

 

Anybody who's had to cough up money for an annual Friends of Scouting drive -- or any local leader who has had to put the bite on his ward or stake members to do so -- all the time realizing that the money goes toward paying corporate overhead, not to benefit the local unit, is bound to see that as a strong reason for severing ties.

 

And if a local ward or branch cannot sustain a Scout troop, the program is going to fall on its face whether or not it has the backing of the expensive, top-heavy BSA corporate structure.

Edited August 17, 2015 by Scott Lloyd