Poll: Majority Of Utah Mormons Want Lds Church To Leave The Boy Scouts

[KevinG]

I am curious as to what you think of A) the Human Rights Campaign explicitly stating that the Boy Scouts should not allow church-sponsored units to continue excluding gays; B) Lambda Legal's skepticism that whether the BSA's new policy to let church-sponsored units continue to exclude gay adults would be sustainable (same link); and C) Lambda's threat to continue filing lawsuits designed to make church-sponsored scouting units "increasingly marginalized" (same link).

 

Your prediction seems to be quite at odds with the publicly-stated intentions of powerful factions of the Gay Rights Movement.

 

Thank you,

 

-Smac

 

...and that is the other side of the coin for me.  I strongly resent politically motivated agitators using the few Scout leaders who are gay, to force a wedge into the entire organization.  I feel the National BSA punted and left the individual units open to further suits that it didn't want to deal with.

 

There are no winners here.  Groups like HRC and Lambda are willing to kill the BSA and its long standing relationships with religious groups in order to get their own orthodoxy universally accepted.

[ALarson]

Smac was talking about the Church members who are "very active." The numbers are different when other categories are included.

Oh, thanks.  I didn't see the chart below (should have scrolled down! )

[KevinG]

It doesn't matter if BSA execs draw competitive salaries. If we can accomplish comparable good without having to pay those six-figure salaries, it's all to the good.

 

Anybody who's had to cough up money for an annual Friends of Scouting drive -- or any local leader who has had to put the bite on his ward or stake members to do so -- all the time realizing that the money goes toward paying corporate overhead, not to benefit the local unit, is bound to see that as a strong reason for severing ties.

 

No leaders have had to do so.  They choose to do so.  Our local leaders here in the mission field told the district their folks could ask during one of our meetings, but that was the extent of it, and it was made clear that FOS was not a church program.

 

I give directly to the Scouts through a company donation program because I know the money goes to camps, district and council programs, etc.  And yes Scout executive salaries.  

 

If you believe that the church can be better stewards of those monies through volunteer leaders that is fine.  I just don't see us having the same kind of success in running camps, regional programs, etc.

[bluebell]

They simply need to convert the girls programs for boys. None of this is important or surely the girls would have been doing it.

[smac97]

Abrupt? What makes you think there has been an abrupt change in sentiment?

Of all my associations in the church throughout the years, I would say the percentage is indicative of how members have always felt.

 

Fair enough.  Perhaps I have underestimated how much resentment toward the scouting program has been simmering for a while.  

 

Daniel2 clearly wants this to be a very recent phenomenon . . . because the BSA's capitulation is a recent phenomenon (see here: "Clearly, (the large number of LDS in Utah wanting to ditch Scouting is) provoked almost entirely because the BSA has allowed individual units to hire scoutmasters that reflect the values of the individual units--which would mean that some units allow gay leaders ... The other listed criticisms you (and others) have mentioned are tangential...").  I think this is because Daniel2 wants to paid Mormons as acting out of bigotry and hatred (note that elsewhere he blandly slurs the LDS Church as "anti-gay").

 

So who is right?  Is the BSA's recent capitulation the "almost entire" basis for large numbers of LDS Utahns wanting to ditch Scouting?  Or was it the "last straw" amongst many frustrations (expense/hassle being a long-term irritation)?

 

Thanks,

 

-Smac 

 

Edit to Add: I should note that even if Daniel2's surmise is correct, I reject the charge that wanting to leave Scouting predominantly because of the BSA's recent capitulation is bigoted or "anti-gay."  I think reasonable minds can disagree about all sorts of things, including important things.  But I don't think this sentiment is shared by the HRC, and Lambda Legal, and other so-called "gay rights" folks.  It's not live and let life for them.  It's capitulate on your religious beliefs and submit to their sense of morality or else be destroyed through the "staggering" costs of endless litigation inflicted by HRC, Lambda Legal, etc.  That is the Sophie's Choice that these folks are trying to impose (with, I think, what will be ultimate success) on the BSA and on the LDS Church and other religious groups when it comes to continued participation in Scouting.

 

I know "Sophie's Choice" is a rather strong term.  But I think it's an apt descriptor for that the HRC, Lambda Legal and their ilk are doing vis-à-vis Scouting.

 

Thanks,

 

-Smac

Edited August 17, 2015 by smac97

[Zakuska]

Catholics said Mormons should stay in scouting, 47-42 percent; Protestants said get out, 28-49 percent; with those who said they have no religion said Mormons should remain in scouting, 46-32 percent.

 

Interesting.  Get out so we can get in in Utah?

 

We had a hometown parade the other day and a BoyScout troup hosted by a local Presbyterian Church marched in it.  Something new to me.

 

Edited August 17, 2015 by Zakuska

[KevinG]

I'd like to see those numbers for Saints outside of the Inter-mountain West.  It is a lot more difficult to replicate camps and regional programs when you are one ward per town (at best) rather than one ward per block.

[jwhitlock]

Outside of Utah, there is strong sentiment for the church to end the relationship with the BSA and do something else. The expense is a big concern, both for the annual scout camp and for awards, uniforms, etc. Registration each year has become so complex that it requires someone in the ward who knows the ropes in order to get it done on time. Anyone who's been involved in scouting is aware of the political infighting that goes on within the program in general.

 

As an Eagle Scout and someone who has served as scoutmaster, I would fully support the church moving out of scouting and developing its own program. The experiences of running the YW program on its own have been valuable and I see no reason why the church couldn't be successful both in the short and long term of meeting the needs of both the YM and YW with its own programs. It certainly would be beneficial to shed some of the baggage that comes with participation in the BSA.

[KevinG]

Outside of Utah, there is strong sentiment for the church to end the relationship with the BSA and do something else. 

 

Like I said, I'd like to see the numbers.  You and I are a contrasting sample of two.

 

In the Stakes around our Council (Atlanta) we have a strong relationship with the BSA.  Several of our LDS men serve in district and council volunteer positions in addition to their own ward and Stake callings.  The relationship has been beneficial to both the BSA and LDS. 

[Scott Lloyd]

No leaders have had to do so.  They choose to do so.  Our local leaders here in the mission field told the district their folks could ask during one of our meetings, but that was the extent of it, and it was made clear that FOS was not a church program.

 

I give directly to the Scouts through a company donation program because I know the money goes to camps, district and council programs, etc.  And yes Scout executive salaries.  

 

If you believe that the church can be better stewards of those monies through volunteer leaders that is fine.  I just don't see us having the same kind of success in running camps, regional programs, etc.

Requirements may vary from place to place. But here in Utah, local Church units are given an FoS quota they must fill. Most leaders assign it out to reluctant ward members who must visit the same houses again and again until they've contacted everybody.

 

A bishop I know told me a horror story about one ward where they got industrious and met their quota way ahead of schedule. Instead of being appropriately appreciative when the money was turned in, the professional Scouting people told them to go back out now and start hitting up businesses. At that point, the ward leadership as much as told them "We think not."

[webbles]

In Brazil, the church doesn't use the Boy Scouts.  It just uses the "Duty to God" program.  Are there other countries where the church doesn't use Boy Scouts?

[KevinG]

Requirements may vary from place to place. But here in Utah, local Church units are given an FoS quota they must fill. Most leaders assign it out to reluctant ward members who must visit the same houses again and again until they've contacted everybody.

 

A bishop I know told me a horror story about one ward where they got industrious and met their quota way ahead of schedule. Instead of being appropriately appreciative when the money was turned in, the professional Scouting people told them to go back out now and start hitting up businesses. At that point, the ward leadership as much as told them "We think not."

 

...must ...not... make... Utah Mormon... joke... at... Scott's... expense...  

 

Seriously that is awful.  Whose brainchild was that?

Edited August 17, 2015 by KevinG

[jwhitlock]

No leaders have had to do so.  They choose to do so.  Our local leaders here in the mission field told the district their folks could ask during one of our meetings, but that was the extent of it, and it was made clear that FOS was not a church program.

 

I give directly to the Scouts through a company donation program because I know the money goes to camps, district and council programs, etc.  And yes Scout executive salaries.  

 

If you believe that the church can be better stewards of those monies through volunteer leaders that is fine.  I just don't see us having the same kind of success in running camps, regional programs, etc.

 

We've had great success running our own week long camps for the boys. The YW program has also had success running camps. Those events meet the needs of the youth. Huge events aren't necessary for the mission of the church to be accomplished.

[KevinG]

In Brazil, the church doesn't use the Boy Scouts.  It just uses the "Duty to God" program.  Are there other countries where the church doesn't use Boy Scouts?

 

This is the program in place in North America too.  I suspect if we do separate from the BSA as an organization that program will be beefed up a bit with more outdoors activities, or another separate but parallel program will be added for those youth inclined to do Scouty stuff.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Fair enough.  Perhaps I have underestimated how much resentment toward the scouting program has been simmering for a while.  

 

Daniel2 clearly wants this to be a very recent phenomenon . . . because the BSA's capitulation is a recent phenomenon (see here: "Clearly, (the large number of LDS in Utah wanting to ditch Scouting is) provoked almost entirely because the BSA has allowed individual units to hire scoutmasters that reflect the values of the individual units--which would mean that some units allow gay leaders ... The other listed criticisms you (and others) have mentioned are tangential...").  I think this is because Daniel2 wants to paid Mormons as acting out of bigotry and hatred (note that elsewhere he blandly slurs the LDS Church as "anti-gay").

 

So who is right?  Is the BSA's recent capitulation the "almost entire" basis for large numbers of LDS Utahns wanting to ditch Scouting?  Or was it the "last straw" amongst many frustrations (expense/hassle being a long-term irritation)?

 

Thanks,

 

-Smac 

 

Edit to Add: I should note that even if Daniel2's surmise is correct, I reject the charge that wanting to leave Scouting predominantly because of the BSA's recent capitulation is bigoted or "anti-gay."  I think reasonable minds can disagree about all sorts of things, including important things.  But I don't think this sentiment is shared by the HRC, and Lambda Legal, and other so-called "gay rights" folks.  It's not live and let life for them.  It's capitulate on your religious beliefs and submit to their sense of morality or else be destroyed through the "staggering" costs of endless litigation inflicted by HRC, Lambda Legal, etc.  That is the Sophie's Choice that these folks are trying to impose (with, I think, ultimate success) on the LDS Church and other religious groups when it comes to continued participation in Scouting.

 

I know "Sophie's Choice" is a rather strong term.  But I think it's an apt descriptor for that the HRC, Lambda Legal and their ilk are doing vis-à-vis Scouting.

 

Thanks,

 

-Smac

It is that and I can't stand the FoS and the BS that goes on with that.

[KevinG]

We've had great success running our own week long camps for the boys. The YW program has also had success running camps. Those events meet the needs of the youth. Huge events aren't necessary for the mission of the church to be accomplished.

 

I fear our best attempts at a Scout like program will be sufficient but never reach the types of experiences I've seen boys have in the broader BSA.

 

The biggest thing we risk losing is our relationship with men/boys of faith from other traditions than our own.  That has been a valuable part of my boys experience and paradoxically a testimony builder for them.

 

If we are unwilling to sacrifice time and resources to work with the BSA, will we be willing to do so for our young men and women when we are on our own?

 

The answer will probably vary from ward to ward, Stake to Stake.  That has been my experience.

[jwhitlock]

Like I said, I'd like to see the numbers.  You and I are a contrasting sample of two.

 

In the Stakes around our Council (Atlanta) we have a strong relationship with the BSA.  Several of our LDS men serve in district and council volunteer positions in addition to their own ward and Stake callings.  The relationship has been beneficial to both the BSA and LDS. 

 

The experiences for both of us are anecdotal, but I simply know too many LDS scouters (adults) who have been very, very involved in scouting (Wood Badge, district and council positions, OA, etc.) who are just tired of everything that goes on. Of course, there are those who continue to be supportive, but they're a shrinking minority. It also extends to some of the adult leaders in scouting I know outside of the church. There are a number of them who have continue to have chartered troops, but limit their involvement in official scouting activities. They instead tailor their programs to what they think the real needs of their boys are.

 

Again, this is just anecdotal and I know counter examples can be given. But there are a surprising number of people in the church in the Northeast who would support the church doing its own program.

 

And I do think the church would be very successful in doing that since it could cut right to what the needs of the youth are without all the baggage that comes with the BSA.

[jwhitlock]

I fear our best attempts at a Scout like program will be sufficient but never reach the types of experiences I've seen boys have in the broader BSA.

 

The biggest thing we risk losing is our relationship with men/boys of faith from other traditions than our own.  That has been a valuable part of my boys experience and paradoxically a testimony builder for them.

 

If we are unwilling to sacrifice time and resources to work with the BSA, will we be willing to do so for our young men and women when we are on our own?

 

The answer will probably vary from ward to ward, Stake to Stake.  That has been my experience.

 

Again, take a look at the YW program. That's a strong indication that the church could be very successful.

 

The BSA cannot provide the broader experiences that our youth really need, which are more spiritual in nature. The BSA has been moving steadily away from that spiritual emphasis for years.

 

Outside of Utah, we have plenty of opportunities for relationships with people outside the church and at least in our area, we make the most of them. The BSA doesn't have a monopoly on those kinds of experiences - at least, it shouldn't.

 

Finally, I don't see the connection between your observation that if we can't work with the BSA, then we're going to founder with the YM and YW on our own. That doesn't make any sense at all, especially in light of what I've experienced in my church activity.

[KevinG]

 

Finally, I don't see the connection between your observation that if we can't work with the BSA, then we're going to founder with the YM and YW on our own. That doesn't make any sense at all, especially in light of what I've experienced in my church activity.

 

It sounds like your local units are pretty good at running meaningful activities for YM/YW.

 

According to others here the YW get shortchanged because they don't have Scouting or similar programs.  My own experience in 5 states (Utah, Illinois, South Carolina, Tennessee, and now Georgia) is that if the local ward is not invested in some kind of meaningful experience outside of Sunday School for their youth, then Wednesday night becomes youth basketball, or a 11-17 year old babysitting service.

 

I've seen both extremes.  In South Carolina our YW beat the YM/Scouts hands down at regular camping and preparedness.  Where I am now the YW program has limped along, the boys don't even get Scouting after 16, and my youngest daughter finally asked if she could do Scouting.  So now we're volunteers with a Venture Crew and my kids get good experiences and do some missionary work on the side.

 

The biggest predictor of strong active YM programs in my past has been "was the Bishop a Scout Master once?"

[Senator]

This is the program in place in North America too.  I suspect if we do separate from the BSA as an organization that program will be beefed up a bit with more outdoors activities, or another separate but parallel program will be added for those youth inclined to do Scouty stuff.

Ask Hamba about how the quorum can achieve the goals and priciples that scouting was trying for.

[ERayR]

The experiences for both of us are anecdotal, but I simply know too many LDS scouters (adults) who have been very, very involved in scouting (Wood Badge, district and council positions, OA, etc.) who are just tired of everything that goes on. Of course, there are those who continue to be supportive, but they're a shrinking minority. It also extends to some of the adult leaders in scouting I know outside of the church. There are a number of them who have continue to have chartered troops, but limit their involvement in official scouting activities. They instead tailor their programs to what they think the real needs of their boys are.

 

Again, this is just anecdotal and I know counter examples can be given. But there are a surprising number of people in the church in the Northeast who would support the church doing its own program.

 

And I do think the church would be very successful in doing that since it could cut right to what the needs of the youth are without all the baggage that comes with the BSA.

 

And the exorbitant expense.  We are assessed FOS then an additional 200+ per boy for camp plus each volunteer leader, who goes to camp, is assessed 80 dollars.  This year our ward opted not to go to but did a week of camping. 

[provoman]

Very interesting, though I didn't find it surprising, due to the very factors you cite in your post.

Still, it's enlightening to have hard numbers.

I have a degree of residual sentimentality for the Scouting movement, due to the experience I had with it in my youth (I think I mentioned that in a thread the other day) but the affection is not enough to overcome the resentment I feel over the excesses of Friends of Scouting and the expenditure of the funds, plus the recent capitulation with the gay advocacy movement, and my very real expectation that the day will come, probably very soon, when all chartering entities, including the religious ones, will be forced to admit volunteer leaders whose lifestyles are not consistent with the entities' values.

Who is to blame? I have attended Sunday meetings dedicated to Friends of Scouting fund raising. One person has claimed that he was released from a calling for not supporting Friends of Scouting in a manner that his leadership wanted. And there then there are rumors of quotas.

A different program that copies Scouting can be created, but I doubt any of the issues that people have with Scouting will disappear..

[Scott Lloyd]

...must ...not... make... Utah Mormon... joke... at... Scott's... expense...  

 

Seriously that is awful.  Whose brainchild was that?

Without chasing down details, I wouldn't be able to tell you.

[provoman]

Here:

Nearly two-thirds of “very active” Utah members of the LDS Church believe their church leaders should separate from the Boy Scouts and start a new male youth organization, a UtahPolicy survey shows.

In a just-completed survey, pollster Dan Jones & Associates finds that 63 percent of those who termed themselves “very active” in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints -- both men and women -- say church leaders “definitely” or “probably” should drop the long-standing relationship with the Boy Scouts of America and start their own program for boys.

Jones finds that only 23 percent of “very active” Utah Mormons want their church to stay in the Boy Scout program, while 13 percent don’t know.

So, two-thirds say get out of the Boy Scouts, while one-fourth say stay in.

...

Jones polled 500 adult Utahns between Aug. 7-14; with a margin of error of plus or minus 4.99 percent.

Among all Utahns, Jones found that 32 percent favor the LDS Church staying in the Boy Scout program, 54 percent said church leaders should leave the Boy Scouts and form a new, separate organization for young men in their faith.

Among those who told Jones they are “somewhat active” in the LDS Church, 44 percent said stay in the scouts, 47 percent said get out and 9 percent didn’t know.

Those who said they were once active Mormons, but no longer practice the faith, 46 percent said stay in, 47 percent said get out of scouting, and 7 percent didn’t know.

Catholics said Mormons should stay in scouting, 47-42 percent; Protestants said get out, 28-49 percent; with those who said they have no religion said Mormons should remain in scouting, 46-32 percent.

The “very active” Mormons would be those who attend their church regularly, practice the faith’s doctrine and pay 10 percent of their gross incomes to the church – all of which allow those Mormons to attend their temples (closed to non-active Mormons) and participate in temple ceremonies.

I was quite surprised at these figures. I think 63% if active Latter-day Saints wanting to ditch scouting is not merely a majority, but a significant majority. I had thought there might be a lot of residual sentimentality for Scouting amongst the Saints which would have led folks to prefer to stick it out with the BSA. I guess not.

In retrospect, I think there are probably a few factors that have led up to this:

1. Friends of Scouting: Friends of Scouting seems to be a singularly unpopular thing in the Church (in my neck of the woods, anyway).

2. Expense/Hassle: Resentment of FoS, and hence of Scouting and the BSA generally, has likely been exacerbated by past and ongoing news coverage about salaries for BSA executives ($176,336 for Rick Barnes, Scout executive of the Great Salt Lake Council, in 2010, $598,300 in 2007 for Roy Williams, chief scout executive with the Boy Scouts of America National Council, which was part of a retirement package for him worth a total of $1.6 million, etc.). We've been in an economic downturn for many years now, so exorbitant salaries drawn from "voluntary" FoS drives has, I think, soured a lot of people on Scouting. Also, the unnecessarily steep cost of scouting paraphernalia (shirts, merit badges, etc.) (see, e.g., here and here), together with the bureaucratic hassles of running a Scouting organization, have likely been rubbing folks the wrong way for quite a while now.

3. The BSA's Recent Capitulation: The BSA's recent capitulation on homosexual scoutmasters, the continuing explicit threat of litigation by gay rights groups against the BSA (see here and here) until it utterly capitulates on this issue, is perhaps the strongest factor here.

4. A Viable Alternative to Scouting: I think there is a growing feeling among the Latter-day Saints that the Church could deploy a program as good or better than the Scouting program, and do so with far less expense, paperwork, bureaucracy, etc., and that this alternative has overshadowed the sentimentality about Scouting that has previously prevailed.

What do you think? What factors likely contribute to what appears to be an abrupt and profound change in sentiment and opinion amongst LDS Utahns toward Scouting?

Also, do you think these sentiments are reflected by Latter-day Saints outside of Utah?

Thanks,

-Smac

"Utah Mormons", that tells me enough of what to think of the poll results.

[Scott Lloyd]

Who is to blame? I have attended Sunday meetings dedicated to Friends of Scouting fund raising. One person has claimed that he was released from a calling for not supporting Friends of Scouting in a manner that his leadership wanted. And there then there are rumors of quotas.

A different program that copies Scouting can be created, but I doubt any of the issues that people have with Scouting will disappear..

When you're not having to fund highly paid professional executives and corporate overhead, Friends of Scouting (or its equivalent) goes away. That leaves us with volunteer efforts and funding that directly support the local boys involved. I think we in the Church can manage on our own.

Edited August 17, 2015 by Scott Lloyd