B.s.a. Allows Gay Leaders, Church Responds

[rockpond]

I respect the Catholic Church, probably more than you think.

Rock pond and Stone holm were acting as though this were the definitive word from all of Catholicism on this matter. Your comments confirm my own impressions. Thank you.

I actually never said it was the definitive word. Read my comments... I compared both as initial responses to the vote.

[rockpond]

What you call the Church's "PR Department" doesn't freelance. It functions under the direction of Church leaders at the highest level. So you don't know what you're talking about.

I'd love to hear which church leaders you think are going to claim responsibility for that disaster of a press release.

[sunstoned]

Is there anything they could have said that you two wouldn't have preferred to the Church's statement?

 

Anything at all?

 

The Catholic response isn't "more dignified and thoughtful," it's just more Catholic.

Actually, it was a lot more dignified.

[rockpond]

Since the committee apparently lacks authority to bind the rest of the church, perhaps they were about as firm as they could be -- which was not very. Plus, I think they were anxious to avoid ticking off their buddies there in Irving, Texas.

Our Church headquarters, on the other hand, could speak with autonomy and power, and they rose to the occasion.

What do you think was autonomous and powerful in the statement? They acknowledged that governing councils were unable to meet and no decisions had been made. That's neither autonomous or powerful. It's pretty much the opposite. Edited July 29, 2015 by rockpond

[Mormonmaniac]

The Catholics took a clear stand and you call it "wishy washy". The Mormons said everyone's on vacation but we're gonna examine this later and you call that "discernment from God".

That's just funny.

The Catholics didnt take a clear stand. They were very hesitant and unknowing about the implications of the decision. Its as if they lacked divine inspiration. The LDS statement is a no doubt abrupy acknowledgement that their decision goes against God and traditional BSA values long held dearly by their organization. Stating they were going to examine their longstanding relationship was an orderly way of stating that the church works in a house of order that relies on working as a group, led by the spirit to decide their decision in the proper method knowing the many implications of the determined decision one way or the other.

The LDS church and its leadership are led by God and its obvious from the press release that the Lord God is not at all pleased with the decision of the BSA and its caving in to pressure from the throngs of immoral characters and ideals that plague our society.

Edited July 29, 2015 by Mormonmaniac

[Scott Lloyd]

I'd love to hear which church leaders you think are going to claim responsibility for that disaster of a press release.

I would be surprised if the First Presidency themselves had not read and approved the statement in advance on so important a matter.

The New York Times said the statement was unusually "strident" for the Church. I think that was by design. The Church leaders are unhappy about what has transpired, and they want that known. "Deeply troubled" is about as negative as they ever get in a public affairs statement.

You are fooling yourself if you think this statement is merely the work of some inept or maverick PR flack off in some musty cubicle. How many times do you have to be told? The Public Affairs Department of the Church does not freelance.

Edited July 29, 2015 by Scott Lloyd

[Scott Lloyd]

What do you think was autonomous and powerful in the statement? They acknowledged that governing councils were unable to meet and no decisions had been made. That's neither autonomous or powerful. It's pretty much the opposite.

I think Mormonmaniac answered this well.

I would just add the the indication they would deliberate later was not a delay tactic, as you are endeavoring to spin it. It was an unusually sharp expression of displeasure about being treated discourteously by the BSA executive leadership. And again, I think that was very deliberate.

Edited July 29, 2015 by Scott Lloyd

[why me]

The Catholics didnt take a clear stand. They were very hesitant and unknowing about the implications of the decision. Its as if they lacked divine inspiration. The LDS statement is a no doubt abrupy acknowledgement that their decision goes against God and traditional BSA values long held dearly by their organization. Stating they were going to examine their longstanding relationship was an orderly way of stating that the church works in a house of order that relies on working as a group, led by the spirit to decide their decision in the proper method knowing the many implications of the determined decision one way or the other.

The LDS church and its leadership are led by God and its obvious from the press release that the Lord God is not at all pleased with the decision of the BSA and its caving in to pressure from the throngs of immoral characters and ideals that plague our society.

The catholic stance was hedging its bets. It was political so not to annoy. And it was carefully written and organized. The lds statement was more direct. In this age of moral relativism sometimes the more direct approach is needed and with it a clear stance given. The lds church needs to be commended for its strong position statement. It shows courage.

 

This whole thread is a little strange. For some people, whatever the church does or does not do is always up to criticism by some people who are wish to find faults to ease their own conscience. Mormon scouting should be commended for training young boys and girls to be good and wonderful citizens. It is based on good christian values focused in charity.

Edited July 29, 2015 by why me

[Mormonmaniac]

The catholic stance was hedging its bets. It was political so not to annoy. And it was carefully written and organized. The lds statement was more direct. In this age of moral relativism sometimes the more direct approach is needed and with it a clear stance given. The lds church needs to be commended for its strong position statement. It shows courage.

 

This whole thread is a little strange. For some people, whatever the church does or does not do is always up to criticism by some people who are wish to find faults to ease their own conscience. Mormon scouting should be commended for training young boys and girls to be good and wonderful citizens. It is based on good christian values focused in charity.

I fully agree. Having been involved as a Webelos leader, Cub master, and scout master two times over the past 15 years has instilled in me the grand importance of the LDS church in its support of the BSA and what it can do to help boys become men. It bother me extremely that people are so willing to criticise the church for not agreeing with its position in regards to the gay leadership decision by the BSA. I know without any doubt just how much influence leaders have upon their boys they help lead and guide. A good leader becomes one of the top role models for these boys and they too want to become like their leaders in every way. I have seen it, witnessed it over decades. This is not something to trifle with and go with the world. It is so important that we as LDS members back up in every way the grand importance of the church , and ultimately God's position regarding this most crucial matter. Gay leaders have no place in the BSA and shame on the BSA for caving in to the will of Satan.

[saemo]

The Catholics didnt take a clear stand. They were very hesitant and unknowing about the implications of the decision. Its as if they lacked divine inspiration. The LDS statement is a no doubt abrupy acknowledgement that their decision goes against God and traditional BSA values long held dearly by their organization. Stating they were going to examine their longstanding relationship was an orderly way of stating that the church works in a house of order that relies on working as a group, led by the spirit to decide their decision in the proper method knowing the many implications of the determined decision one way or the other.

The LDS church and its leadership are led by God and its obvious from the press release that the Lord God is not at all pleased with the decision of the BSA and its caving in to pressure from the throngs of immoral characters and ideals that plague our society.

Well, the parallel Catholic Explorer scouting program was founded on Lord Baden-Powell's scouting ideals, and was approved by the Pope in the 1920s. It is now present in 20+ countries. Making the Catholic Church prepared long ago, by God, to continue providing a scouting program, for boys and girls, that is based on Christian morals and teachings. Catholics who are interested in continuing scouting as envisioned by Baden-Powell, have a program to migrate to. Edited July 29, 2015 by saemo

[why me]

Well, the parallel Catholic Explorer scouting program was founded on Lord Baden-Powell's scouting ideals, and was approved by the Pope in the 1920s. It is now present in 20+ countries. Making the Catholic Church prepared long ago, by God, to continue providing a scouting program, for boys and girls, that is based on Christian morals and teachings. Catholics who are interested in continuing scouting as envisioned by Baden-Powell, have a program to migrate to.

That's great. Good to see that both the catholics and the lds have wonderful scouting programs and are on the same page. Would you agree with this statement? 

 

However, most catholic boys are not in the catholic sponsored scouting program. Most are just in the boy scouts, attending their local troop. Most likely no different for mormon youth who are in locations with a small amount of mormons. When I was a boy my parish did not have a scout troop. So, young boys just went into the local troop. I was in the pioneers. And my town my very catholic.

 

For example:

 

The Catholic Church sponsors 8,100 Scouting units, totaling 259,000 youths.

 

The United Methodist Church, second only to the LDS Church in number of congregations that host Scout troops, supported the new BSA policy, noting local churches will still be able to pick their leaders in more than 10,700 units involving about 350,000 youth.

 

Gilbert Hanke, the top executive of United Methodist Men, also pointed out in a statement that the BSA resolution says it will defend religious chartered organizations against discrimination claims or actions.

 

http://www.ksl.com/?sid=35705438&nid=148&fm=most_popular&s_cid=popular-2

 

Lets not overdo the catholic church involvement in the scouting program. 250,000 youth when the population of catholics is considered is not much. The methodists have more members in scouting etc.

Edited July 29, 2015 by why me

[Stone holm]

I fully agree. Having been involved as a Webelos leader, Cub master, and scout master two times over the past 15 years has instilled in me the grand importance of the LDS church in its support of the BSA and what it can do to help boys become men. It bother me extremely that people are so willing to criticise the church for not agreeing with its position in regards to the gay leadership decision by the BSA. I know without any doubt just how much influence leaders have upon their boys they help lead and guide. A good leader becomes one of the top role models for these boys and they too want to become like their leaders in every way. I have seen it, witnessed it over decades. This is not something to trifle with and go with the world. It is so important that we as LDS members back up in every way the grand importance of the church , and ultimately God's position regarding this most crucial matter. Gay leaders have no place in the BSA and shame on the BSA for caving in to the will of Satan.

Having held all of those leadership positions, served on a Council executive board, been Cubscout and Varsity Scout Woodbadge trained and been to Scout Camp school, I can honestly state that from what I have seen and experienced in the Midwest and here in New England, the LDS Packs and Troops tend to be the weakest units out there, despite the fact that the BSA has time and time again made special accommodations to support our youth configurations. BSA has honoured our religious leaders over and over again, and now when BSA makes an accommodation to disentangle itself from a culture war that has been lost we attack it. I question whether BSA can survive given it is being ripped apart by both the right and left unable to stay out of the religious crossfire of the two groups. It is a tragedy to see an iconic Organization being shredded by the Churches and gay rights activists. Had the various Chartering Organizations been allowed from the moment the controversy arose to make their own choices it could have weathered the storm, but where certain groups wanted to impose their standards on other chartering Organizations it could not. It is a great tragedy to see this Organization dismembered in this culture war.

[Buckeye]

Having held all of those leadership positions, served on a Council executive board, been Cubscout and Varsity Scout Woodbadge trained and been to Scout Camp school, I can honestly state that from what I have seen and experienced in the Midwest and here in New England, the LDS Packs and Troops tend to be the weakest units out there, despite the fact that the BSA has time and time again made special accommodations to support our youth configurations. BSA has honoured our religious leaders over and over again, and now when BSA makes an accommodation to disentangle itself from a culture war that has been lost we attack it. I question whether BSA can survive given it is being ripped apart by both the right and left unable to stay out of the religious crossfire of the two groups. It is a tragedy to see an iconic Organization being shredded by the Churches and gay rights activists. Had the various Chartering Organizations been allowed from the moment the controversy arose to make their own choices it could have weathered the storm, but where certain groups wanted to impose their standards on other chartering Organizations it could not. It is a great tragedy to see this Organization dismembered in this culture war.

 

I have three boys in scouting in a midwest LDS troop. Our troop is run better than most in the stake - we have a trained SM and a functioning committee - but its still a far cry from non-LDS units. Its not the fault of the members. Its the result of a system that requires each unit to have a separate troop - thereby keeping the number of boys lower than needed to run a full troop - and the constant cycling of callings. We've been more fortunant than many units in that we've only had 2 SMs over the past 8 years, but we're still struggling in many regards.

 

After the church press release, I contacted another troop that is chartered by a Methodist congregation and asked about joining if the LDS church drops scouting. Within 2 hours (in the middle of a business day), I got a lengthy email from the SM laying out the past 2 years of activities, plans for the next year, an org chart with six functioning patrols (six!), and a warning that their troop is boy lead so you better like some chaos. Add to the mix the fact that their meetings are 15 minutes closer to my home than our LDS chapel, and that my boys are friends with a number of the their kids through school and OA, and I'm actually pretty excited about the prospects. I still hope the church backs down and we keep the LDS troop, but I'm encouraged that there will be a significant silver lining to my boys scouting experience if a break does happen.

[Stone holm]

Our Branch in Indiana ran a successful Pack for several years before My wife died and I moved to Vermont. But, we were about 90% non members and we broke the rule about no Tiger Cubs. At that time in our Stake 2 of the 7 Presidents of 70 were very active in Scouting and had teenage daughters. In a Basic Training religious policy segment, we were discussing the fact that we were allowed to break the Tiger Cub rule and it had been very helpful in our recruiting den leaders. In the course of the discussion it came out that they had both put their daughters in the catholic co ed Explorer Post. We questioned how it was appropriate to do that when the Church only allowed boys only Explorer Posts. They countered that the Church only said it would not sponsor such posts, not that parents shouldn't put their daughters in them. After that we didn't feel guilty about bending the rules. My wife was an active Brownie Scout leader as well, but her and another woman ran their Brownie group like their Cubscout Den which they felt was the better program. She served as both a primary president and YW President, and felt strongly that the girls were being short changed by the Church in their programs. At her funeral she had Webelos, brownies, Girl Scouts and Boy Scouts as pall bearers. People who were kids in her programs still talk about that Pack and for many it was their only real and positive contact with the Church. A local Methodist minister ranted against the Mormons back then, as a result his Pack collapsed and its leaders joined our Pack, and several of the women on his executive board resigned in protest and in defense of my wife. When my family left, the Pack lost its non members and they started a new Methodist Pack.

[Thinking]

I know without any doubt just how much influence leaders have upon their boys they help lead and guide. A good leader becomes one of the top role models for these boys and they too want to become like their leaders in every way. I have seen it, witnessed it over decades. This is not something to trifle with and go with the world. It is so important that we as LDS members back up in every way the grand importance of the church , and ultimately God's position regarding this most crucial matter. Gay leaders have no place in the BSA and shame on the BSA for caving in to the will of Satan.

 

Gay or straight, a scout leader should leave his sexuality out of the troop meetings. If the leader is focusing on the scouting program, his sexual orientation will not be discussed nor will it be relevant. Can a gay scout leader teach a scout how to tie knots? Set up a campsite? Cook on a portable stove? Administer first aid?

 

Would you also prohibit schools from hiring teachers who happen to be gay? Teachers can serve as role models for their students. Do you think a  heterosexual teenage boy would suddenly want to be gay because his English teacher (who happened to be gay but never discussed it in class) successfully helped him understand the difference between it's and its?

[jkwilliams]

Gay or straight, a scout leader should leave his sexuality out of the troop meetings. 

 

Exactly. I had a high school teacher who came out as gay just before my junior year. He didn't make a big deal about it, but word got out, and it was not a huge deal. I had 3 classes from him in 2 years, and never once did he bring up his sex life in class. If he had, that would have been highly inappropriate, just as it would for a heterosexual teacher, and could have been grounds for dismissal. I don't want teachers and Scout leaders and church leaders talking to minors about their sex life, period. I remember when we lived in Utah that a petition went around to get a high school teacher/volleyball coach fired because, when a student asked, "Are you gay?" she answered "Yes." That was the extent of her being "openly gay." There was no mention of her sex life, no advocacy of gay rights, just coaching. She was fired, but she won a summary judgment against the school district for violating her First Amendment rights.

 

This is why I keep saying that this isn't about people's sex lives or whether they are advocating anything. 

[stemelbow]

It's lame for the Church to make an issue out of this.

Yes, it would have been cool if the Church made an issue out of the spending and focus on boys over girls, thanks to it's participation in scouts.

It would have been cool back in the day if the Church made an issue out of scouts going by the don't ask don't tell, type of policy for young boys in scouts.

It would have been cool if the Church realized long ago that scouts doesn't serve most of our young boys in the Church because most, more than half, I'm told, live outside the US.

It would have been cool if the Church acknowledged scouting isn't for every young boy and there are tons of useful things young American Mormon boys can be heavily involved with that can teach them and mentor them better than scouts does--all depending on personal circumstance.

But it's lame for the Church to talk all tough because Scouts finally said scout leaders can be gay. This reminds me, and I know people get annoyed by my perspective but oh well, of the priesthood restriction and the racist policies of the Church from many years ago. The Church talked tough sticking to false teaching in order to sale the guise of being led by Christ in all things.

That's passé, these days. We can see through it now.

[filovirus]

Gay or straight, a scout leader should leave his sexuality out of the troop meetings. If the leader is focusing on the scouting program, his sexual orientation will not be discussed nor will it be relevant. Can a gay scout leader teach a scout how to tie knots? Set up a campsite? Cook on a portable stove? Administer first aid?

 

Would you also prohibit schools from hiring teachers who happen to be gay? Teachers can serve as role models for their students. Do you think a  heterosexual teenage boy would suddenly want to be gay because his English teacher (who happened to be gay but never discussed it in class) successfully helped him understand the difference between it's and its?

I disagree about leaving my sexual orientation out of scouting. I've been on many camping trips with my wife. I think I should be able to discuss things I've learned on those trips. When I sit in sacrament meeting and the scouts are watching, I think it appropriate that they see the little things I do with my wife, such as putting my arm around her or holding her hand. If a scouting activity is planned in my backyard or inside my home, I would sure hope they see the loving relationship between my me and my wife.

There are three locations in this world that I consider more sacred than others. The temple, the church, and my home. All three of those locations I consider safe havens and sanctuary from the pressures of society. Just because my sons may have a homosexual school teacher doesn't mean they should also have a homosexual scout leader.

[jkwilliams]

I disagree about leaving my sexual orientation out of scouting. I've been on many camping trips with my wife. I think I should be able to discuss things I've learned on those trips. When I sit in sacrament meeting and the scouts are watching, I think it appropriate that they see the little things I do with my wife, such as putting my arm around her or holding her hand. If a scouting activity is planned in my backyard or inside my home, I would sure hope they see the loving relationship between my me and my wife.

There are three locations in this world that I consider more sacred than others. The temple, the church, and my home. All three of those locations I consider safe havens and sanctuary from the pressures of society. Just because my sons may have a homosexual school teacher doesn't mean they should also have a homosexual scout leader.

 

If it's appropriate for you to hold hands or put your arm around your wife, why isn't it appropriate for a gay couple to do the same thing? This is what I mean when I say the issue isn't about our sex lives but about who we are. One of my kids is about to get engaged, and they hold hands and even kiss in public, and no one thinks they are flaunting their heterosexuality. 

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

It's lame for the Church to make an issue out of this.

 

Standing on principals and morality is lame I agree.

[rockpond]

I would be surprised if the First Presidency themselves had not read and approved the statement in advance on so important a matter.

The New York Times said the statement was unusually "strident" for the Church. I think that was by design. The Church leaders are unhappy about what has transpired, and they want that known. "Deeply troubled" is about as negative as they ever get in a public affairs statement.

You are fooling yourself if you think this statement is merely the work of some inept or maverick PR flack off in some musty cubicle. How many times do you have to be told? The Public Affairs Department of the Church does not freelance.

 

I believe that they don't freelance.

 

I also know that PR departments speak for corporations.  The Prophet speaks for God.

[stemelbow]

Standing on principals and morality is lame I agree.

I don't see how it's standing on principals and morality at all.

[Gray]

Standing on principals and morality is lame I agree.

 

What principles or morality are you talking about? The BSA decision gives individual churches full liberty to choose who to lead their troops. 

 

What more could any church want from the BSA?

[rockpond]

I would just add the the indication they would deliberate later was not a delay tactic, as you are endeavoring to spin it. It was an unusually sharp expression of displeasure about being treated discourteously by the BSA executive leadership. And again, I think that was very deliberate.

 

Nope, not spinning it as a delay tactic.  If the church is going to pull out of Scouts it will take a lot of discussion, work, and planning.

 

And I agree with you that it was an expression of displeasure with the BSA leadership.  I'm not sure why they think they've been treated discourteously... the vote was announced well in advance.  My understanding is that the three GA's that we have on the board did cast their votes (they were part of the 21% voting against the proposal).

[rockpond]

... its obvious from the press release that the Lord God is not at all pleased with the decision of the BSA ...

 

You got that from the Newsroom statement?  Wow.