ttribe Posted July 28, 2015 Posted July 28, 2015 I wonder if you're in my old stake. My kids did the trek in 105 degrees in Oklahoma, with restricted water and food. My daughter got the worst of it, having to go to the ER with heat exhaustion and coming home with a very bad sunburn (they weren't allowed to take sun block) and chiggers. Wait, what?! (bolded part)
Brian 2.0 Posted July 28, 2015 Posted July 28, 2015 the new Court of Honor will be something like this: it's gonna be awesome.
rockpond Posted July 28, 2015 Author Posted July 28, 2015 So I'm a bit curious about the basis for your optimism. Our past. Exhibit A from almost 25 years ago... http://www.deseretnews.com/article/169688/SCOUTERS-ADVOCATE-STRONG-DEFENSE.html?pg=all
KevinG Posted July 28, 2015 Posted July 28, 2015 Our local community has a large youth soccer program with which I am involved, and it occurs to me that we don't take adequate provision to screen our coaches' sexual preferences. Since the coaches spend much more time with the children than an average Scout leader would over the course of a few months, can anyone explain to me if they would be okay with a gay coach for their young child but not okay with a gay Scout leader? The curricula of most youth sporting leagues does not often deal with "Faith in God" and what it means to be "Morally Straight" (and for the 100th time that is not a shot at gays). I do not select my children's athletic or musical coaches for their ability to communicate my shared LDS beliefs. I also don't ask the Bishop to conduct my children's school choir. One of the great advantages of w church sponsored scout troop is the ability to confer shared values to another generation of youth. Thus my hesitance to allow anyone eager to discuss or disclose sexual issues to get anywhere near a position to mentor my children. 1
jkwilliams Posted July 28, 2015 Posted July 28, 2015 Wait, what?! (bolded part) Yep. No sun block, no insect repellent, because that's how the pioneers did it. It was a huge disaster, and I don't mind saying that, no matter what it says about my cankered soul.
Scott Lloyd Posted July 28, 2015 Posted July 28, 2015 I've never heard of a BSA summer camp that caused dozens of trips to the ER over a 3-day period. Have you? I've never heard of a trek experience that did that. I'm just saying that if it were a standardized program, it would probably avoid the kind of mess my kids experienced. And I've already agreed with you about the benefit of standardization.
ttribe Posted July 28, 2015 Posted July 28, 2015 Yep. No sun block, no insect repellent, because that's how the pioneers did it. It was a huge disaster, and I don't mind saying that, no matter what it says about my cankered soul. That's just plain stupid. 1
KevinG Posted July 28, 2015 Posted July 28, 2015 Yep. No sun block, no insect repellent, because that's how the pioneers did it. It was a huge disaster, and I don't mind saying that, no matter what it says about my cankered soul. This is reason #2 why I volunteer to be on just about any activity my kids are on. Reason #1 is the spiffy uniform I get to wear in Scouts.
jkwilliams Posted July 28, 2015 Posted July 28, 2015 I've never heard of a trek experience that did that. Now you have. And I've already agreed with you about the benefit of standardization. I know.
Bobbieaware Posted July 28, 2015 Posted July 28, 2015 Well, it didn't kill my son's testimony, but he came away distraught that leaders basically invented a "miracle" out of whole cloth. I distinctly remember him asking me if all the other miracles in the church were based on lies, or just that one.I'd like to hear the other side of the story. Considering your obviously jaundiced perspective on all things LDS, I bet there's a more reasonable explanation for what happened on that trek. An explanation that would place the leaders in a more positive light. When one all too eagerly wants to find fault, he's sure to find it. 1
jkwilliams Posted July 28, 2015 Posted July 28, 2015 This is reason #2 why I volunteer to be on just about any activity my kids are on. Reason #1 is the spiffy uniform I get to wear in Scouts. I would have volunteered, but they wanted couples, and my wife was having some health issues. 1
Scott Lloyd Posted July 28, 2015 Posted July 28, 2015 (edited) Wait, you're getting after me for this derail when I made one post in the exchange? A post that was clearly a sarcastic way of expressing disbelief that you guys were pursuing this line of discussion at all?It can be hard to read the intent behind a one-word question like "Seriously?". I thought you were being contemptuous of my preference for Utahn. Obviously I don't want to continue this discussion here either. Edited July 28, 2015 by Scott Lloyd
ttribe Posted July 28, 2015 Posted July 28, 2015 It can be hard to read the intent behind a one-word question like "Seriously?". I thought you were being contemptuous of my preference for Utahn. No, that's why I included messages from multiple participants.
ttribe Posted July 28, 2015 Posted July 28, 2015 I'd like to hear the other side of the story. Considering your obviously jaundiced perspective on all things LDS, I bet there's a more reasonable explanation for what happened on that trek. An explanation that would place the leaders in a more positive light. When one all too eagerly wants to find fault, he's sure to find it. You're being unnecessarily combative and accusatory. Mellow out.
jkwilliams Posted July 28, 2015 Posted July 28, 2015 I'd like to hear the other side of the story. Considering your obviously jaundiced perspective on all things LDS, I bet there's a more reasonable explanation for what happened on that trek. An explanation that would place the leaders in a more positive light. When one all too eagerly wants to find fault, he's sure to find it. I'm not finding fault, just explaining that the whole experience was very upsetting. I'll skip the details, but during the follow-up fireside, the stake president told everyone about a miracle they had experienced. My son had told me the story when he got home, and there wasn't anything miraculous about it. While the SP was talking, my son (who was 16 or 17 then) turned to me and said, "Dad! I was there! None of that happened! Why would he make that stuff up?" I told him I thought that people see things differently, and he obviously interpreted it differently than my son. My son said, "No, Dad. None of that happened. It's a lie." And I take exception to your suggestion that i have a "jaundiced perspective on all things LDS." It's only jaundiced on some things.
KevinG Posted July 28, 2015 Posted July 28, 2015 We're kind of far afield from a discussion of the merits of the LDS Church continuing affiliation with the BSA National program. Agreed:- Youth leaders can be stupid if not downright dangerous.- The LDS Church is not immune to stupid.- Scott is protective of his identity as a Utah native.- Brownies are good regardless of your stance on poop as an ingredient. Now what does this have to do with openly gay scout leaders again? 4
Stone holm Posted July 28, 2015 Posted July 28, 2015 Not had time to read entirely through this thread yet, so perhaps this has been discussed, but I found this portion of the Church's statement very interesting: For one thing, the national leadership basically thumbed its nose at the Church, and the Church has very boldly and sternly called them out for it. The day will come, probably very soon, as I read the message between the lines, when BSA will regret this cavalier action. BSA should have dodged this bullet years ago by leaving the decision up to the Chartering Organizations, instead they let their organization become a battlefield for the Right Wing and the Gay Rights groups to carry on a culture war that had very little to do with the boys or those actually working in Scouting. Since those who disagreed with the ban have already formed their Baden Powell Association (perhaps don't have the name right) which allows gays, girls and women. And now the Southern Baptist with their former Confederacy ilk are considering dropping the program, and we are considering forming our own organization, it looks like a venerated American iconic organization is going to fade into history, unless the Catholics pick up the torch and keep it going. That is possible given Pope Francis' tendency to live and let live. I think we should be honest with the homosexuals though -- they really can't hold a lot of callings in the Church including Scouting positions if they come out even if they are chaste. 2
Gray Posted July 28, 2015 Posted July 28, 2015 If you get started on idiosyncrasies in regional dialects, there can be no end to it. I speak in the pure and unsullied dialect of Televisionlandia.
Skylla Posted July 28, 2015 Posted July 28, 2015 A "testimony" of the Gospel that can be 'killed' by participation in a poorly-planned trek reenactment is no testimony at all. The real-life Martin and Willie handcart company treks could be said to be poorly planned, but in spite of that fact testimonies were strengthened, not 'killed." Thanks for the illuminating window to the soul your post provides.Bobbieaware: Refrain from commenting on the condition of one's soul on this board. Everyone: Get back on topic please. Skylla
Scott Lloyd Posted July 28, 2015 Posted July 28, 2015 No, that's why I included messages from multiple participants.Then I have to wonder why you included mine, since I didn't want the thread derailed either.
KevinG Posted July 28, 2015 Posted July 28, 2015 BSA should have dodged this bullet years ago by leaving the decision up to the Chartering Organizations, instead they let their organization become a battlefield for the Right Wing and the Gay Rights groups to carry on a culture war that had very little to do with the boys or those actually working in Scouting. This is what knots my neckerchief more than the issue of gays being leaders. The culture war was started by and large by those who have no interest in or plans to invest time, talent and money into the BSA. National punted yet again and stuck local units with the consequences, meanwhile the corporate donations aren't suddenly pouring back in because of previous punts.
KevinG Posted July 28, 2015 Posted July 28, 2015 (edited) Nevermind I don't want the wrath of Skylla for my off topic comment. Edited July 28, 2015 by KevinG 1
rockpond Posted July 28, 2015 Author Posted July 28, 2015 BSA should have dodged this bullet years ago by leaving the decision up to the Chartering Organizations, instead they let their organization become a battlefield for the Right Wing and the Gay Rights groups to carry on a culture war that had very little to do with the boys or those actually working in Scouting. Since those who disagreed with the ban have already formed their Baden Powell Association (perhaps don't have the name right) which allows gays, girls and women. And now the Southern Baptist with their former Confederacy ilk are considering dropping the program, and we are considering forming our own organization, it looks like a venerated American iconic organization is going to fade into history, unless the Catholics pick up the torch and keep it going. That is possible given Pope Francis' tendency to live and let live. I think we should be honest with the homosexuals though -- they really can't hold a lot of callings in the Church including Scouting positions if they come out even if they are chaste. Perfect summary of the situation. And your last sentence is key with respect to our church moving forward. What space have we created for gay people within our wards and stakes? There's nothing particularly welcoming to gay people about the Newsroom statement. It's more of a "you're not wanted" message. Is that what we want to communicate? 1
busybee Posted July 28, 2015 Posted July 28, 2015 I stand corrected about legal pressure for the BSA to allow gay leaders. I still remain puzzled as to why this is such a big deal for the church. If someone tries to force the church to accept gay leaders, then sure, I agree with rock pond, that's the time to leave. Seems really weird to be having conniptions about this now.Prevention is better than cure. Why wait until they are forced to accept gay leaders when they know that the time will come. Better to be proactive.
rockpond Posted July 28, 2015 Author Posted July 28, 2015 The culture war was started by and large by those who have no interest in or plans to invest time, talent and money into the BSA. CFR
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