jbarm Posted July 28, 2015 Posted July 28, 2015 In my view this announcement marks the end of Church support for the national Boy Scout organization.Why? Because Friends of Scouting donations will dwindle to a mere fraction of prior donation levels in LDS Wards after the Church news release.Most people I know disliked the Friends of Scouting drives but held their noses and donated out of obligation.No more monetary donations to the national organization, no more LDS Scouting. jb 1
jkwilliams Posted July 28, 2015 Posted July 28, 2015 Just occurred to me: The youth handcart pioneer treks are a phenomenon that has emerged in the last two or three decades among our people. They emphasize heritage, outdoor skills, resourcefulness, unity, teambuilding, service, unselfishness, religious devotion, etc. Perhaps this could be the kernel of a new program that would not only replace Scouting but would benefit girls as well as boys. And it has a direct tie to our Latter-day Saint culture, more so than Scouting ever did. Thoughts? Maybe I should start a new thread with this. Maybe that would lead to a more uniform (no pun intended) trek program, which would avoid the kind of disastrous, testimony-killing treks like the one my kids went on. One of my other kids went on a well-planned and executed trek, but the other one was memorable in all the wrong ways. 1
Scott Lloyd Posted July 28, 2015 Posted July 28, 2015 Maybe that would lead to a more uniform (no pun intended) trek program, which would avoid the kind of disastrous, testimony-killing treks like the one my kids went on. One of my other kids went on a well-planned and executed trek, but the other one was memorable in all the wrong ways.Obviously, with everybody doing it, it would put too much pressure on Martin's Cove and the other standard sites. There would have to be more local venues. And how could it be expanded to a year-round program? This just occurred to me, and I haven't had time to refine my thinking on it yet. But it's worth some consideration.
KevinG Posted July 28, 2015 Posted July 28, 2015 Maybe that would lead to a more uniform (no pun intended) trek program, which would avoid the kind of disastrous, testimony-killing treks like the one my kids went on. One of my other kids went on a well-planned and executed trek, but the other one was memorable in all the wrong ways. My smart alek (PG version) kids went on one of those treks. My son really wanted to bake some biscuits with the flour bag "baby" he was handed just to mess with the leaders minds. I laughed heartily then asked him to be nice. Years later I'm wondering if I advised him correctly?
sethpayne Posted July 28, 2015 Posted July 28, 2015 (edited) "Utahan" is pretty much unacceptable among Utahns. You do realize that people outside of Utah -- non-Utahns -- often refer to the residents of Utah, right? As I say, both uses are technically correct and are used. Although Utahn is far more common -- if we are to believe Google. ETA: Whoops! I'm actually incorrect. Both Utahn and Utahan are used with the about the same frequency as of 2008. So Tacenda, you are in good company. https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=Utahn%2C+Utahan&year_start=1800&year_end=2008&corpus=15&smoothing=3&share=&direct_url=t1%3B%2CUtahn%3B%2Cc0%3B.t1%3B%2CUtahan%3B%2Cc0 Edited July 28, 2015 by sethpayne
Gray Posted July 28, 2015 Posted July 28, 2015 You do realize that people outside of Utah -- non-Utahns -- often refer to the residents of Utah, right? As I say, both uses are technically correct and are used. Although Utahn is far more common -- if we are to believe Google. ETA: Whoops! I'm actually incorrect. Both Utahn and Utahan are used with the about the same frequency as of 2008. So Tacenda, you are in good company. https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=Utahn%2C+Utahan&year_start=1800&year_end=2008&corpus=15&smoothing=3&share=&direct_url=t1%3B%2CUtahn%3B%2Cc0%3B.t1%3B%2CUtahan%3B%2Cc0 Can we really trust Utahans in this matter? After all, they seem to treat "fillings" and "feelings" as if they were homophones. 1
Scott Lloyd Posted July 28, 2015 Posted July 28, 2015 You do realize that people outside of Utah -- non-Utahns -- often refer to the residents of Utah, right? As I say, both uses are technically correct and are used. Although Utahn is far more common -- if we are to believe Google. ETA: Whoops! I'm actually incorrect. Both Utahn and Utahan are used with the about the same frequency as of 2008. So Tacenda, you are in good company. https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=Utahn%2C+Utahan&year_start=1800&year_end=2008&corpus=15&smoothing=3&share=&direct_url=t1%3B%2CUtahn%3B%2Cc0%3B.t1%3B%2CUtahan%3B%2Cc0People outside of Utah have no good reason to refer to Utahns differently than they refer to themselves. I have made this case elsewhere. And I've seen the Google Books link. Its shortcoming is that it does not take in newspapers and other periodicals, where references to residents of the state are most apt to occur. I made that point before as well. So Tacenda, you are in good company. What use of the term "Utahan" does is mark the speaker or writer as a somewhat ignorant outsider.
ttribe Posted July 28, 2015 Posted July 28, 2015 You do realize that people outside of Utah -- non-Utahns -- often refer to the residents of Utah, right? As I say, both uses are technically correct and are used. Although Utahn is far more common -- if we are to believe Google. ETA: Whoops! I'm actually incorrect. Both Utahn and Utahan are used with the about the same frequency as of 2008. So Tacenda, you are in good company. https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=Utahn%2C+Utahan&year_start=1800&year_end=2008&corpus=15&smoothing=3&share=&direct_url=t1%3B%2CUtahn%3B%2Cc0%3B.t1%3B%2CUtahan%3B%2Cc0 Can we really trust Utahans in this matter? After all, they seem to treat "fillings" and "feelings" as if they were homophones. People outside of Utah have no good reason to refer to Utahns differently than they refer to themselves. I have made this case elsewhere. And I've seen the Google Books link. Its shortcoming is that it does not take in newspapers and other periodicals, where references to residents of the state are most apt to occur. I made that point before as well. What use of the term "Utahan" does is mark the speaker or writer as a somewhat ignorant outsider. Seriously?
Scott Lloyd Posted July 28, 2015 Posted July 28, 2015 Can we really trust Utahans in this matter? After all, they seem to treat "fillings" and "feelings" as if they were homophones. If you get started on idiosyncrasies in regional dialects, there can be no end to it.
Scott Lloyd Posted July 28, 2015 Posted July 28, 2015 Seriously?Don't derail the thread with this. As I said, I've made a good case, and if you're interested, start a new thread. I will contribute to it.
jkwilliams Posted July 28, 2015 Posted July 28, 2015 My smart alek (PG version) kids went on one of those treks. My son really wanted to bake some biscuits with the flour bag "baby" he was handed just to mess with the leaders minds. I laughed heartily then asked him to be nice. Years later I'm wondering if I advised him correctly? I will just note that my daughter (who was 15 at the time), was assigned a paper at school on "the worst experience of my life," and she wrote about the trek. I'm hoping most treks don't involve more than a dozen hospital admissions and a few times that number visits to the ER. 3
Scott Lloyd Posted July 28, 2015 Posted July 28, 2015 I will just note that my daughter (who was 15 at the time), was assigned a paper at school on "the worst experience of my life," and she wrote about the trek. I'm hoping most treks don't involve more than a dozen hospital admissions and a few times that number visits to the ER.Not everybody has a good experience with a BSA summer camp.
Buckeye Posted July 28, 2015 Posted July 28, 2015 Good news. It appears the catholics are going to keep their affiliation with BSA: http://www.nytimes.com/2015/07/29/us/catholic-panel-urges-churches-to-continue-sponsoring-scout-troops.html?hp&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&module=second-column-region®ion=top-news&WT.nav=top-news&_r=0
jkwilliams Posted July 28, 2015 Posted July 28, 2015 Not everybody has a good experience with a BSA summer camp. I've never heard of a BSA summer camp that caused dozens of trips to the ER over a 3-day period. Have you? I'm just saying that if it were a standardized program, it would probably avoid the kind of mess my kids experienced.
Bobbieaware Posted July 28, 2015 Posted July 28, 2015 Maybe that would lead to a more uniform (no pun intended) trek program, which would avoid the kind of disastrous, testimony-killing treks like the one my kids went on. One of my other kids went on a well-planned and executed trek, but the other one was memorable in all the wrong ways.A "testimony" of the Gospel that can be 'killed' by participation in a poorly-planned trek reenactment is no testimony at all. The real-life Martin and Willie handcart company treks could be said to be poorly planned, but in spite of that fact testimonies were strengthened, not 'killed." Thanks for the illuminating window to the soul your post provides.
ttribe Posted July 28, 2015 Posted July 28, 2015 Don't derail the thread with this. As I said, I've made a good case, and if you're interested, start a new thread. I will contribute to it. Wait, you're getting after me for this derail when I made one post in the exchange? A post that was clearly a sarcastic way of expressing disbelief that you guys were pursuing this line of discussion at all?
cinepro Posted July 28, 2015 Posted July 28, 2015 I will just note that my daughter (who was 15 at the time), was assigned a paper at school on "the worst experience of my life," and she wrote about the trek. I'm hoping most treks don't involve more than a dozen hospital admissions and a few times that number visits to the ER. If she applies to BYU, I recommend that be the topic of her essay 1
KevinG Posted July 28, 2015 Posted July 28, 2015 I've never heard of a BSA summer camp that caused dozens of trips to the ER over a 3-day period. Have you? I'm just saying that if it were a standardized program, it would probably avoid the kind of mess my kids experienced. Never underestimate the ability of volunteers to screw up a standardized program. http://www.foxnews.com/us/2013/10/19/charges-possible-for-boy-scouts-who-toppled-utah-rock-formation/
Buckeye Posted July 28, 2015 Posted July 28, 2015 I've never heard of a BSA summer camp that caused dozens of trips to the ER over a 3-day period. Have you? I'm just saying that if it were a standardized program, it would probably avoid the kind of mess my kids experienced. Scout camp can have injuries and death due to lightning, tornados, etc. I think the difference between those events and what (sometimes) unfortunately happens with a trek is that BSA never tries to make something more intense or dangerous in order to create a testimony-building moment. In my stake they made the kids go without water in order to experience suffering like the pioneers. 100+ temps in July and you can guess what happened. We haven't had a trek since then (several years). BSA has its issues, but that kind of stupid is not one of them. 1
jkwilliams Posted July 28, 2015 Posted July 28, 2015 A "testimony" of the Gospel that can be 'killed' by participation in a poorly-planned trek reenactment is no testimony at all. The real-life Martin and Willie handcart company treks could be said to be poorly planned, but in spite of that fact testimonies were strengthened, not 'killed." Thanks for the illuminating window to the soul your post provides. Well, it didn't kill my son's testimony, but he came away distraught that leaders basically invented a "miracle" out of whole cloth. I distinctly remember him asking me if all the other miracles in the church were based on lies, or just that one.
jkwilliams Posted July 28, 2015 Posted July 28, 2015 If she applies to BYU, I recommend that be the topic of her essay She went to USU.
cinepro Posted July 28, 2015 Posted July 28, 2015 (edited) Our local community has a large youth soccer program with which I am involved, and it occurs to me that we don't take adequate provision to screen our coaches' sexual preferences. Since the coaches spend much more time with the children than an average Scout leader would over the course of a few months, can anyone explain to me if they would be okay with a gay coach for their young child but not okay with a gay Scout leader? Edited July 28, 2015 by cinepro
KevinG Posted July 28, 2015 Posted July 28, 2015 At last something we all agree on. Save the children. Shoot the overzealous!
ttribe Posted July 28, 2015 Posted July 28, 2015 A "testimony" of the Gospel that can be 'killed' by participation in a poorly-planned trek reenactment is no testimony at all. The real-life Martin and Willie handcart company treks could be said to be poorly planned, but in spite of that fact testimonies were strengthened, not 'killed." Thanks for the illuminating window to the soul your post provides. What a nasty little cheap-shot that was.
jkwilliams Posted July 28, 2015 Posted July 28, 2015 Scout camp can have injuries and death due to lightning, tornados, etc. I think the difference between those events and what (sometimes) unfortunately happens with a trek is that BSA never tries to make something more intense or dangerous in order to create a testimony-building moment. In my stake they made the kids go without water in order to experience suffering like the pioneers. 100+ temps in July and you can guess what happened. We haven't had a trek since then (several years). BSA has its issues, but that kind of stupid is not one of them. I wonder if you're in my old stake. My kids did the trek in 105 degrees in Oklahoma, with restricted water and food. My daughter got the worst of it, having to go to the ER with heat exhaustion and coming home with a very bad sunburn (they weren't allowed to take sun block) and chiggers.
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