B.s.a. Allows Gay Leaders, Church Responds

[Scott Lloyd]

That is untrue, I'm a Utahan. 

I said "pretty much."

[Scott Lloyd]

The leadership in your Stake is probably also smart enough to let people bring sunblock and other such modern "conveniences."

Yeah.

 

I have two sons going on a trek this week. I don't think I would be allowing it under the circumstances described here.

[jkwilliams]

Yeah.

 

I have two sons going on a trek this week. I don't think I would be allowing it under the circumstances described here.

I would not have allowed it had I known. When my youngest went on the trek to Martin's Cove, I did my homework to make sure they were prepared.

[jkwilliams]

I said "pretty much."

I'm not from Utah, but I've always spelled it "Utahn."

[ttribe]

Talk about a derail. Trips to the ER for trek. It happens. So what.

 

Let us know if you still feel this way if it's your kid.

[Scott Lloyd]

I'm not from Utah, but I've always spelled it "Utahn."

:clapping:

[jkwilliams]

:clapping:

For some reason, I'm thinking it might have been in the Church style guide. I could be misremembering, though.

Edited July 28, 2015 by jkwilliams

[Scott Lloyd]

For some reason, I'm thinking it might have been in the Church style guide. I could be misremembering, though.

It wouldn't surprise me.

 

It's in the BYU publications style guide, I know, and the Deseret News. And undoubtedly the Tribune.

[Russell C McGregor]

No, not surprising at all these days. The homophobia is too strong to expect any other response than this.

What "homophobia?"

There is no such "phobia." That term is merely what manipulators use when they want to be manipulative.

Sure you were... uhuh... nope, don't believe you.

Since you have no valid basis for your scepticism, I attribute it to the Gandalf principle: "The treacherous are ever mistrustful," or dishonest people assume others are as dishonest as they are.

[Russell C McGregor]

Thus, we have gays as scot leaders. However, the scots have had gay men lead them before.

That must be why they wear kilts...

[Ducks]

[Scott Lloyd]

That must be why they wear kilts...

[Ducks]

Several pages ago, Sunstone said we see ourselves as targets for "percussion." Does that mean we're in fear of being struck, scraped or rubbed?

[jkwilliams]

Several pages ago, Sunstone said we see ourselves as targets for "percussion." Does that mean we're in fear of being struck, scraped or rubbed?

I'm picturing a gay Scottish Utahn playing a snare drum.

[Russell C McGregor]

Persons without belief, like myself (though this isn't always clear either), are not amoral and therefore immoral. I hope that isn't your claim. I've read your posts. I may not always agree with you but I do see the value of consideration. Evidenced by your posts, you seem too intelligent to make the claim I've stated.

I use the term "immoralist" approximately as Friedrich Nietzsche used it. It doesn't apply to everyone who is "without belief."

Although I seriously doubt that you are "without belief." You just don't believe in some of the same things that I do. And I've observed that many atheists have their own "god delusion," namely, the delusion that the Supreme Intelligence in the Universe resides within their own skulls. But that's another discussion.

Every time something happens that encroaches upon religious freedom, the immoralists insist that there's no religious freedom in view anyway. So why should they stop now?

[ttribe]

I'm picturing a gay Scottish Utahn playing a snare drum.

 

Win. [/thread]

[changed]

As a mom of a boy scout, I honestly wish the church had it's own program.  I'm tired of all the paperwork and headache the scouts put us through for every little thing.  We did not go to scout camp this year due to the paperwork/training/requirements.  I think we should have equal funding for the YW and YM, with similar programs and activities. 

[KevinG]

As a mom of a boy scout, I honestly wish the church had it's own program.  I'm tired of all the paperwork and headache the scouts put us through for every little thing.  We did not go to scout camp this year due to the paperwork/training/requirements.  I think we should have equal funding for the YW and YM, with similar programs and activities.

They do have equal funding. Additional money out of parents pockets notwithstanding.

What paperwork does your council require besides the health form and the on line youth protection training?

[Saint Sinner]

I use the term "immoralist" approximately as Friedrich Nietzsche used it. It doesn't apply to everyone who is "without belief."Although I seriously doubt that you are "without belief." You just don't believe in some of the same things that I do. And I've observed that many atheists have their own "god delusion," namely, the delusion that the Supreme Intelligence in the Universe resides within their own skulls. But that's another discussion.Every time something happens that encroaches upon religious freedom, the immoralists insist that there's no religious freedom in view anyway. So why should they stop now?

This makes sense and thank you for the polite response. I was worried my reply to you would come off as rude or condescending.

[changed]

In our ward, there is no where near equal funding.  YM go on a 2 week out-of-state campout, while YW go on a 3 night in-state camp-out for example. Also, currently scouts meet 4times a month, while activity days/YW only meet 2ce a month.  It really is not fair to the girls.

 

For the boy scout camp, we were supposed to volunteer one day of scout camp for our kid - only last year, I was the only mom in our entire group who volunteered - I drove all of the kids there and back each day, volunteered each day with all of my other kids there too, while no one else helped at all (I am not the scout leader, or called in the scouting program).  It was turning into this again this year, and I told everyone no, so none of our group ended up going.  The paperwork involved filling out everything both online, and by hand, and was absolutely ridiculous.  Ask any scout leader what they have to go through to collect the needed info - training everyone to use the online system, then telling them they have to do it all by hand too, and they will tell you it is the worst calling in the ward.  YW does not go through anything like that.

 

YW does not buy little outfits, and $15 handkerchiefs that we have to drive all the way downtown to an expensive store for... YW does not earn badges, or pins etc. 

 

I'm tired of scouts.  I'll be glad to see it gone, whatever the reason ends up being.

Edited July 29, 2015 by changed

[MorningStar]

As a mom of a boy scout, I honestly wish the church had it's own program.  I'm tired of all the paperwork and headache the scouts put us through for every little thing.  We did not go to scout camp this year due to the paperwork/training/requirements.  I think we should have equal funding for the YW and YM, with similar programs and activities. 

 

Oh, the paperwork has been killing me!  We moved since last year and because my husband couldn't get another physical yet, we had to get the form C signed by his doctor where we used to live.  They said we could fax the form to them, but that we had to pick it up in person.  What if we had moved out of state?!  So ridiculous.  I needed form C for him and two of our boys.   Had to fill out forms for him and two of our boys to volunteer at Cub Camp, had to get copies of the BB gun training card to the right people, 11-year-old camp forms, canoe trip forms, youth protection training certificates times 3, Scout Camp forms, and I hate filling out the immunizations every year!  My friend says she just writes "current" and no one says anything to her yet.  And having to write down two names/numbers of people allowed to drive the boys?  Give me a break!  So much busywork just for them to go camping.

[jkwilliams]

In our ward, there is no where near equal funding.  YM go on a 2 week out-of-state campout, while YW go on a 3 night in-state camp-out for example. 

 

For the boy scout camp, we were supposed to volunteer one day of scout camp for our kid - only last year, I was the only mom in our entire group who volunteered - I drove all of the kids there and back each day, volunteered each day with all of my other kids there too, while no one else helped at all (I am not the scout leader, or called in the scouting program).  It was turning into this again this year, and I told everyone no, so none of our group ended up going.  The paperwork involved filling out everything both online, and by hand, and was absolutely ridiculous.  Ask any scout leader what they have to go through to collect the needed info, and they will tell you it is the worst calling in the ward.  YW does not go through anything like that.

Sounds like your ward is a bit of a mess.

[changed]

I live in an affluent area, all the boys get their eagles. 

 

So other areas do it differently?  Girls get outfits like the boys do?  Girls get awesome campouts as long as and as frequently as the boys do?  Girls get the same number of monthly activities as the boys do? Girls earn badges and pins, and have monthly celebrations rewarding trivial craft projects like the boys do?  The girls have the equivalent of "arrow of light" ceremonies etc. etc.??  I need to move if other wards have equal opportunities for the boys and girls.

Edited July 29, 2015 by changed

[saemo]

I will be surprised if the Catholics follow our lead or that of the Southern Baptists.

From the National Catholic Committee on Scouting:

http://www.nccs-bsa.org/pdf/letters/NCCS%20Statement-150727.pdf

July 27, 2015

Catholic Scouters,

On Monday, July 27, the National Executive Board of the Boy Scouts of America ratified a resolution stating that no adults can be denied registration as employees or non-unit-serving volunteers of the Boy Scouts of America “on the basis of sexual orientation”. The resolution also affirms the chartered organization’s right to select its unit leaders based on its religious principles, rejects any interference with that right, and provides that local Scout councils will not interfere with chartered organizations’ rights in this regard.

It is not entirely clear how these rights will be squared with previous policy changes the Boy Scouts have made, or how they will work in practice, but it appears that the resolution respects the needs of Catholic- chartered organizations in the right to choose leaders whose character and conduct are consistent with those of Catholic teaching. At the same time, we express strong concern about the practical implications of this resolution, especially for our young people in Scouting, and whether the term “sexual orientation” will be correctly understood and applied only in reference to sexual inclination and not to sexual conduct or behavior. We also express concern that the resolution articulates a position on adult sexual conduct that does not make clear that sexual behavior should be reserved to a husband and a wife in marriage. The concerns here also join the previous considerations communicated about the change in membership standards (see FAQs at www.nccs-bsa.org/mbrstd/, including FAQ #23 which pertains to BSA adult membership).

The National Catholic Committee on Scouting recognizes that differences in religious beliefs among chartered organizations and society in general have played a part in the creation of this resolution. While this fluctuating situation will be increasingly challenging, we recognize the vital importance of providing a Catholic emphasis to Catholic Scouts and Scouters seeking ways to live out their “duty to God”. We also recognize the increasing need for the Catholic Church to offer Scouting as a program of youth ministry. Chartering Scout units will ensure that youth within their faith communities are led by faith-filled role models who share the same interests in Scouting.

If you are like us, you joined Scouting to make a difference in the lives of others. Our youth don’t want to leave Scouting. Catholic Scouters like you are still very much needed. Let’s continue this important journey together and pray for the future of Scouting! Thank you for all you do to promote Scouting as Catholic youth ministry! We will keep you updated as further information becomes available.

Yours in Catholic Scouting,

Edited July 29, 2015 by saemo

[rockpond]

I live in an affluent area, all the boys get their eagles.

So other areas do it differently? Girls get outfits like the boys do? Girls get awesome campouts as long as and as frequently as the boys do? Girls get the same number of monthly activities as the boys do? Girls earn badges and pins, and have monthly celebrations rewarding trivial craft projects like the boys do? The girls have the equivalent of "arrow of light" ceremonies etc. etc.?? I need to move if other wards have equal opportunities for the boys and girls.

Your experience is similar to mine. Cub Scout budget in my ward this year is almost 5x the Activity Days budget.

Cub Scouts in our stake get a 3-4 day "day camp" while the Activity Days girls get one day.

Deacons go to a high adventure scout camp for a full week. Beehive camp is 3 days with no high adventure.

[saemo]

FWIW, Catholic parishes participate in both Boy Scouts and Girl Scouts. We all buy those little boxes of cookies!

Edited July 29, 2015 by saemo

[rockpond]

From the National Catholic Committee on Scouting:

http://www.nccs-bsa.org/pdf/letters/NCCS%20Statement-150727.pdf

July 27, 2015

Catholic Scouters,

On Monday, July 27, the National Executive Board of the Boy Scouts of America ratified a resolution stating that no adults can be denied registration as employees or non-unit-serving volunteers of the Boy Scouts of America “on the basis of sexual orientation”. The resolution also affirms the chartered organization’s right to select its unit leaders based on its religious principles, rejects any interference with that right, and provides that local Scout councils will not interfere with chartered organizations’ rights in this regard.

It is not entirely clear how these rights will be squared with previous policy changes the Boy Scouts have made, or how they will work in practice, but it appears that the resolution respects the needs of Catholic- chartered organizations in the right to choose leaders whose character and conduct are consistent with those of Catholic teaching. At the same time, we express strong concern about the practical implications of this resolution, especially for our young people in Scouting, and whether the term “sexual orientation” will be correctly understood and applied only in reference to sexual inclination and not to sexual conduct or behavior. We also express concern that the resolution articulates a position on adult sexual conduct that does not make clear that sexual behavior should be reserved to a husband and a wife in marriage. The concerns here also join the previous considerations communicated about the change in membership standards (see FAQs at www.nccs-bsa.org/mbrstd/, including FAQ #23 which pertains to BSA adult membership).

The National Catholic Committee on Scouting recognizes that differences in religious beliefs among chartered organizations and society in general have played a part in the creation of this resolution. While this fluctuating situation will be increasingly challenging, we recognize the vital importance of providing a Catholic emphasis to Catholic Scouts and Scouters seeking ways to live out their “duty to God”. We also recognize the increasing need for the Catholic Church to offer Scouting as a program of youth ministry. Chartering Scout units will ensure that youth within their faith communities are led by faith-filled role models who share the same interests in Scouting.

If you are like us, you joined Scouting to make a difference in the lives of others. Our youth don’t want to leave Scouting. Catholic Scouters like you are still very much needed. Let’s continue this important journey together and pray for the future of Scouting! Thank you for all you do to promote Scouting as Catholic youth ministry! We will keep you updated as further information becomes available.

Yours in Catholic Scouting,

Looks like the Catholics schooled us on this one.