Stone holm Posted July 29, 2015 Posted July 29, 2015 Looks like the Catholics schooled us on this one.Yeah, I thought this would be how they would react. The Church needs to make some changes in its PR Department it's embarrassing that the Catholics made a more dignified and thoughtful response. 1
Russell C McGregor Posted July 29, 2015 Posted July 29, 2015 Looks like the Catholics schooled us on this one. Yeah, I thought this would be how they would react. The Church needs to make some changes in its PR Department it's embarrassing that the Catholics made a more dignified and thoughtful response. Is there anything they could have said that you two wouldn't have preferred to the Church's statement? Anything at all? The Catholic response isn't "more dignified and thoughtful," it's just more Catholic. 3
rockpond Posted July 29, 2015 Author Posted July 29, 2015 Is there anything they could have said that you two wouldn't have preferred to the Church's statement?Anything at all?The Catholic response isn't "more dignified and thoughtful," it's just more Catholic.The Catholic statement provided more clarity, didn't disparage gay members, and supported the Catholic doctrinal position. The Mormon Newsroom statement was written in a way that could make our gay members feel unwelcome, didn't provide any clarity, and muddied the waters on our doctrinal position.
DBMormon Posted July 29, 2015 Posted July 29, 2015 The Church has been a friend and partner with Scouting for over a century. You don't treat your friend shabbily and not expect the relationship to be damaged, perhaps irreparably.What if you've grown up and your friend continues to be insensitive and hurtful.... at some point you move on.... they just did.
Scott Lloyd Posted July 29, 2015 Posted July 29, 2015 Looks like the Catholics schooled us on this one.saemo is late to the game on this. Buckeye linked to it several pages ago. That's when I said one committee does not the Catholic Church make. I understand this committee is advisory, that it's word is not binding on the Catholic parishes. Moreover, they are pretty much in bed with the national BSA headquarters, to the point of having their offices in the same building in Irving, Texas. And no, they are not "schooling us". The Church of Jesus Christ has its own set of values and will act accordingly. We are led by prophets and apostles who are subject to Jesus Christ, not committees. 1
Scott Lloyd Posted July 29, 2015 Posted July 29, 2015 What if you've grown up and your friend continues to be insensitive and hurtful.... at some point you move on.... they just did.I reject your unjust accusation against the Church of Jesus Christ.
Scott Lloyd Posted July 29, 2015 Posted July 29, 2015 Yeah, I thought this would be how they would react. The Church needs to make some changes in its PR Department it's embarrassing that the Catholics made a more dignified and thoughtful response.What you call the Church's "PR Department" doesn't freelance. It functions under the direction of Church leaders at the highest level. So you don't know what you're talking about. 1
rockpond Posted July 29, 2015 Author Posted July 29, 2015 saemo is late to the game on this. Buckeye linked to it several pages ago. That's when I said one committee does not the Catholic Church make. I understand this committee is advisory, that it's word is not binding on the Catholic parishes. Moreover, they are pretty much in bed with the national BSA headquarters, to the point of having their offices in the same building in Irving, Texas. And no, they are not "schooling us". The Church of Jesus Christ has its own set of values and will act accordingly. We are led by prophets and apostles who are subject to Jesus Christ, not committees.Their values on this subject are actually fairly close to ours... They just explained them better. As a journalist, Scott, can you not look at the two responses and make an objective conclusion about which one did a better job explaining the church's position to readers?Second question: do you think our newsroom statement did anything to make gay church members feel welcome among us?
Scott Lloyd Posted July 29, 2015 Posted July 29, 2015 (edited) Their values on this subject are actually fairly close to ours... They just explained them better. As a journalist, Scott, can you not look at the two responses and make an objective conclusion about which one did a better job explaining the church's position to readers?Second question: do you think our newsroom statement did anything to make gay church members feel welcome among us? The Catholics can run their shop as they see fit but I wanted to applaud on the spot when I read the statement from the Church of Jesus Christ yesterday. It expressed a firm stance that the Church is not going to be steamrolled or cowed into submission. It is what I have come to expect from our leaders over the years. If, on the other hand, the statement had reflected a disposition to capitulate, I would have been very bothered by it.Oh, forgot the second question. Our gay members who are determined to obey the commandments of God and overcome the natural man, as we are all expected to do, or if they have fallen short, desire to repent, have no reason not to feel welcome. Edited July 29, 2015 by Scott Lloyd 2
carbon dioxide Posted July 29, 2015 Posted July 29, 2015 My prediction is the Church will stay in scouts on the short term as they organize its own internal program for all LDS worldwide. It will take some time to get that all organized. The boy scouts will cave in eventually to exemptions made and force all troops submit. Not only this, but the next shoe to drop is allowing transgendered kids into scouting. Who knows what after that. Scouting will turn into an "progressive" freak show within 10 years.
Tacenda Posted July 29, 2015 Posted July 29, 2015 My prediction is the Church will stay in scouts on the short term as they organize its own internal program for all LDS worldwide. It will take some time to get that all organized. The boy scouts will cave in eventually to exemptions made and force all troops submit. Not only this, but the next shoe to drop is allowing transgendered kids into scouting. Who knows what after that. Scouting will turn into an "progressive" freak show within 10 years.You sure don't disappoint in the insensitive department. 2
carbon dioxide Posted July 29, 2015 Posted July 29, 2015 You sure don't disappoint in the insensitive department. Politically correct I am not. Never will be. 2
Scott Lloyd Posted July 29, 2015 Posted July 29, 2015 (edited) My prediction is the Church will stay in scouts on the short term as they organize its own internal program for all LDS worldwide. It will take some time to get that all organized. The boy scouts will cave in eventually to exemptions made and force all troops submit. Not only this, but the next shoe to drop is allowing transgendered kids into scouting. Who knows what after that. Scouting will turn into an "progressive" freak show within 10 years.I was thinking earlier: I have one boy left in Scouting proper; the other two are in their older teens. Will I want to encourage the younger boy to subscribe to Boy's Life magazine? Who knows what unpalatable ideas or even soft core porn will show up in there under the new order of things? Your "progressive freak show" prediction may be right, if the movement doesn't suffer an early demise before it gets to that point.As for the Church staying on board for the short term I believe it could have a new program up and running sooner than you think. My hunch is that it already exists on paper, ready for implementation when necessary. It is probably greatly streamlined by comparison, so it wouldn't be necessary to replicate everything. Edited July 29, 2015 by Scott Lloyd
saemo Posted July 29, 2015 Posted July 29, 2015 (edited) Looks like the Catholics schooled us on this one.I see a difference in how scouting is implemented between the two churches. Both Boy Scouts and Girl Scouts are ministries that youth can participate in if they want, with their parent's appeoval of course. If a youth doesn't want to participate, or their parents don't approve, then they dont participate. There isn't a requirement to attend a YM program, implemented via BSA, as there is for boys and young men in the LDS Church.So, if a Catholic parent or youth does not agree with the BSA change, they can stop participating, while other Catholic youth can continue too, if they want. I don't see this is the same for LDS youth and parents. The LDS Church is acting on behalf of its own religious YM program, as BSA is made compulsory in the LDS YM program. Not saying that is good or bad, just pointing out a major difference in how Scouting is implemented in the two religions.This statement came from the National Committee of Catholic Scouting, not the US Council of Catholic Bishops (USCCB). The USCCB has not put out any statement regarding the BSA announcement. But the USCCB has always left Catholic Scouting to the National Committee on Scouting. Those involved in Catholic Scouting don't anticipate that the USCCB will step in. However, individual Bishops have jurisdiction over their dioceses, and I wouldn't be surprised to see that some will make a ruling that is opposite to the National Committee. Edited July 29, 2015 by saemo
Mormonmaniac Posted July 29, 2015 Posted July 29, 2015 Looks like the Catholics schooled us on this one.Not at all. The Catholic church is wishy-washy and sidestepped the issue altogether. They showed some concern but it appears they just basically lack discernment on the matter. At least with our church we have that discernment from God. 1
saemo Posted July 29, 2015 Posted July 29, 2015 (edited) saemo is late to the game on this. Buckeye linked to it several pages ago. That's when I said one committee does not the Catholic Church make. I understand this committee is advisory, that it's word is not binding on the Catholic parishes. Moreover, they are pretty much in bed with the national BSA headquarters, to the point of having their offices in the same building in Irving, Texas. And no, they are not "schooling us". The Church of Jesus Christ has its own set of values and will act accordingly. We are led by prophets and apostles who are subject to Jesus Christ, not committees.I read the first four or five pages of the thread, then no time to read the rest. Mostly, it is LDS discussing the LDS Scouting program, which I have no opinion about. So, apologies for being late. I saw the comment on Catholic Scouting and replied to that.The Catholic Church is Christ's Church, and is administered differently than the Mormon Church. Bishops are autonomous, but also in communion with each other and the Pope. There are thousands of Catholic ministries, and the Church by and large leaves the administration of those ministries at a local level. So while the National Committee on Scouting put out a statement, it is on behalf of a Catholic ministry, and the USCCB has put trust in those who lead the ministry, as it does in many others. Each led by the Spirit in discerning the implementation of the ministry.Further, trusting parents to discern the raising and teaching of their children. It wouldn't be leap to surmise that some Catholic parents will be pulling their boys out of Scouting. Edited July 29, 2015 by saemo
mtomm Posted July 29, 2015 Posted July 29, 2015 Why do we need another program to take the place of Scouts. Just put a blue cover on the Personal Progress book. Since it's good enough for the girls it surely is good enough for the boys. 2
mtomm Posted July 29, 2015 Posted July 29, 2015 (edited) Cause boys and girls are identical. Apparently their budgets are. Other than changing some of the words and using the word Priesthood in there, it shouldn't be very hard. But then we already have Duty to God for the boys so the point is moot. They already have a program equal to the girls. They just had two to begin with. Edited July 29, 2015 by mtomm 1
rockpond Posted July 29, 2015 Author Posted July 29, 2015 The Catholics can run their shop as they see fit but I wanted to applaud on the spot when I read the statement from the Church of Jesus Christ yesterday. It expressed a firm stance that the Church is not going to be steamrolled or cowed into submission. It is what I have come to expect from our leaders over the years. If, on the other hand, the statement had reflected a disposition to capitulate, I would have been very bothered by it.Oh, forgot the second question. Our gay members who are determined to obey the commandments of God and overcome the natural man, as we are all expected to do, or if they have fallen short, desire to repent, have no reason not to feel welcome.Neither statement (Mormon or Catholic) showed any capitulation. Both showed a firm stance. But that isn't what I was asking about. Good dodge of both questions.
Scott Lloyd Posted July 29, 2015 Posted July 29, 2015 I read the first four or five pages of the thread, then no time to read the rest. Mostly, it is LDS discussing the LDS Scouting program, which I have no opinion about. So, apologies for being late. I saw the comment on Catholic Scouting and replied to that.The Catholic Church is Christ's Church, and is administered differently than the Mormon Church. Bishops are autonomous, but also in communion with each other and the Pope. There are thousands of Catholic ministries, and the Church by and large leaves the administration of those ministries at a local level. So while the National Committee on Scouting put out a statement, it is on behalf of a Catholic ministry, and the USCCB has put trust in those who lead the ministry, as it does in many others. Each led by the Spirit in discerning the implementation of the ministry.Further, trusting parents to discern the raising and teaching of their children. It wouldn't be leap to surmise that some Catholic parents will be pulling their boys out of Scouting.I respect the Catholic Church, probably more than you think. Rock pond and Stone holm were acting as though this were the definitive word from all of Catholicism on this matter. Your comments confirm my own impressions. Thank you.
Scott Lloyd Posted July 29, 2015 Posted July 29, 2015 Neither statement (Mormon or Catholic) showed any capitulation. Both showed a firm stance. But that isn't what I was asking about. Good dodge of both questions.Since the committee apparently lacks authority to bind the rest of the church, perhaps they were about as firm as they could be -- which was not very. Plus, I think they were anxious to avoid ticking off their buddies there in Irving, Texas. Our Church headquarters, on the other hand, could speak with autonomy and power, and they rose to the occasion.
saemo Posted July 29, 2015 Posted July 29, 2015 (edited) I respect the Catholic Church, probably more than you think. Rock pond and Stone holm were acting as though this were the definitive word from all of Catholicism on this matter. Your comments confirm my own impressions. Thank you.Definitely not the definitive word. What I'm reading, in Catholic parent forums, is that there is a heightened interest from concerned Catholic parents to migrate Catholic BSA troops to Trail Life USA or the Federation of North American Explorers. The latter being a Catholic organization with status by the Holy See as "an association of pontifical right". Both of these organizations have girl scouting. So, there are already alternative for Catholic BSA troops to migrate to. Trail Life, transfers the badges from BSA to their program, so even more appealing. Asking boys to throw away all their hard work is a concern.Catholic parents want the same as LDS, Baptist, Lutheran, etc. parents, a moral environment for their children to participate. Catholic parents will be the definitive word about Catholic Scouting. Edited July 29, 2015 by saemo 4
rockpond Posted July 29, 2015 Author Posted July 29, 2015 Not at all. The Catholic church is wishy-washy and sidestepped the issue altogether. They showed some concern but it appears they just basically lack discernment on the matter. At least with our church we have that discernment from God.The Catholics took a clear stand and you call it "wishy washy". The Mormons said everyone's on vacation but we're gonna examine this later and you call that "discernment from God". That's just funny.
Recommended Posts