The "mass Resignation Event" Of July 25, 2015

[jkwilliams]

And I'm just saying that not everything of interest to a very limited segment of the public merits or warrants being reported in the local news media -- unless there is a concerted effort to manipulate public opinion by inflating its noteworthiness or importance.

 

I think you're capable of understanding that. I have confidence in you.

 

I guess we probably disagree on whether it is noteworthy or important. If 100 Scientologists staged a mass resignation outside that place in Hollywood, it would likely get covered by the local press. At least I would imagine so. As I said, resigning in public, alone or en masse, is not my style at all (heck, I don't think I'd even tell anyone but a few friends and family if I resigned from the church). But I don't have any reason to believe Ms. Swallow was lying about her intentions. On that I suppose we'll have to disagree.

[jkwilliams]

Don't know that it matters what I do think, really. they stated their aims and the only reasoning there is to dispute it is to say "well I think they are being manipulative because I think so".

I'm not convinced, personally. I prefer to give people the benefit of my doubts, let them speak for themselves, and other such old fashioned civil habits.

 

Agreed. As I said, I can think of a number of reasons for doing this in public, but given the stated reason by the organizer, I'll stick with that unless I have reason to believe otherwise. 

[jkwilliams]

"Positive publicity" for whom? In doing this, does the Church endeavor to put the faith of others in a negative light?

 

But I think I'll back out of this conversation, lest I find myself the topic of one of your MDB discussions again.

 

You may have the last word.

 

Nah, you can have the last word. I've expressed my opinion, that's all. You disagree. It's not the end of the world.

[Scott Lloyd]

I guess we probably disagree on whether it is noteworthy or important. If 100 Scientologists staged a mass resignation outside that place in Hollywood, it would likely get covered by the local press. At least I would imagine so. As I said, resigning in public, alone or en masse, is not my style at all (heck, I don't think I'd even tell anyone but a few friends and family if I resigned from the church). But I don't have any reason to believe Ms. Swallow was lying about her intentions. On that I suppose we'll have to disagree.

One hundred people staging a "mass resignation" from a minority religion like Scientology in a populous area like LA would be even less newsworthy than the same number staging a defection from Mormonism in Salt Lake City. And even if it did get any attention, I would expect the news media there to be robust enough to ferret out what proportion of that 100 were actually new resignees and to report it accordingly.

Edited July 27, 2015 by Scott Lloyd

[jkwilliams]

One hundred people staging a "mass resignation" from a minority religion like Scientology in a populous area like LA would be even less newsworthy than the same number staging a defection from Mormonism in Salt Lake City. And even if it did get any attention, I would expect the news media there to be robust enough to ferret out what proportion of that 100 were actually new resignees and to report it accordingly.

 

Well, I think this conversation has run its course. I should probably head over to the other board to tell everyone how mean you are.

[KevinG]

JW's have their fair share of very vocal dissidents. Mormons don't have a lock on rabble-rousing ex-members.

 

The Catholics have been at this for millennia.  Where do you think Protestants come from?     

[KevinG]

I guess we probably disagree on whether it is noteworthy or important. If 100 Scientologists staged a mass resignation outside that place in Hollywood, it would likely get covered by the local press. At least I would imagine so. As I said, resigning in public, alone or en masse, is not my style at all (heck, I don't think I'd even tell anyone but a few friends and family if I resigned from the church). But I don't have any reason to believe Ms. Swallow was lying about her intentions. On that I suppose we'll have to disagree.

 

The difference is Scientology would make National Headlines while Mormonism only makes Utah Headlines and some under the fold AP stories everywhere else.

[Scott Lloyd]

The difference is Scientology would make National Headlines while Mormonism only makes Utah Headlines and some under the fold AP stories everywhere else.

Why should >100 people making a show of their walking out of Scientology make any headlines at all, national or otherwise?

And if AP picks up a story and it is carried everywhere, that does amount to national headlines.

Edited July 27, 2015 by Scott Lloyd

[Scott Lloyd]

Don't know that it matters what I do think, really. they stated their aims and the only reasoning there is to dispute it is to say "well I think they are being manipulative because I think so".I'm not convinced, personally. I prefer to give people the benefit of my doubts, let them speak for themselves, and other such old fashioned civil habits.

So putting on a we-hate-Mormonism show and calling in a newspaper to report on it is not being manipulative? And it's somehow "uncivil" to say that it is? You have a unique lexicon.

[ttribe]

Meh, I find these events to be mostly self-serving.  I know the organizer said it was to let others know they aren't alone (or some derivative of that), but it's the Internet age; Google will let you know in fractions of a second how alone you are, or aren't.

[sethpayne]

Meh, I find these events to be mostly self-serving.  I know the organizer said it was to let others know they aren't alone (or some derivative of that), but it's the Internet age; Google will let you know in fractions of a second how alone you are, or aren't.

 

I agree.

[cinepro]

Why should >100 people making a show of their walking out of Scientology make any headlines at all, national or otherwise?

And if AP picks up a story and it is carried everywhere, that does amount to national headlines.

 

That would actually be a pretty big deal.   The people leaving Scientology risk much more than people who leave the LDS Church, especially if the CoS decides to go after them.

[Avatar4321]

Meh, I find these events to be mostly self-serving.  I know the organizer said it was to let others know they aren't alone (or some derivative of that), but it's the Internet age; Google will let you know in fractions of a second how alone you are, or aren't.

Good point. Especially considering how many sites there are trying to persuade people from leaving the church.

[Thinking]

Meh, I find these events to be mostly self-serving.  I know the organizer said it was to let others know they aren't alone (or some derivative of that), but it's the Internet age; Google will let you know in fractions of a second how alone you are, or aren't.

 

Yeah. Meeting people face to face is so overrated. The LDS Church should move toward internet meetings. Google could reveal in fractions of a second how many members are streaming each meeting. The ward clerk wouldn't have to walk up and down each aisle to get a count.

[jkwilliams]

Meh, I find these events to be mostly self-serving.  I know the organizer said it was to let others know they aren't alone (or some derivative of that), but it's the Internet age; Google will let you know in fractions of a second how alone you are, or aren't.

 

Yeah, pretty much. As I said, I get emails from people all the time who say they are relieved to have found my blog because they see in me someone who has been where they are and can sympathize. But you're right that I don't advertise, I don't hold mass meetings, and I don't call newspapers (well, I was interviewed by a few news agencies a while back, but they came to me). I guess I prefer to keep my we-hate-Mormonism show fairly low-key.  

 

A lot depends on what sort of community you live in and how closely your everyday life is tied to your participation in Mormonism. In some places, leaving can seem an extremely lonely path, and people who find themselves in that position are often relieved to know they aren't alone.

 

Bottom line for me: I don't know these people, and I can't say what motivates them or anyone else. 

[Gray]

That's not how a big business like the Church works.  There is a certain amount of infrastructure and "fixed costs", both financial and in demands for leadership and volunteer effort, that are critical.  If the Church had to adjust back to its scale from 30 years ago (far fewer temples and chapels, for instance), it would be a huge adjustment.  It would be like Walmart seeing a shrinking customer base and saying "It's okay, we had fewer stores and customers 30 years ago, and we were fine." Uh, no.  A business and Church that saw such "negative growth" would more likely be in a death-spiral on its way to bankruptcy (or for a Church, social insignificance).

 

It would also be interesting to see how the changing demographics of the Church impact these equations.  Again, I recognize the eternal value of each soul to a loving Heavenly Father, but if the Church is losing wealthy, middle-class members in first world countries and replacing them with poor people in third world countries that lack leadership skills (for example, areas where missionaries have to serve in Branch leadership positions, and the members contribute little if any tithing and few offerings), then it is not a good thing for the long-term health of the Church.

 

I suspect the Church has some pretty good data on this, and watches these numbers closely. 

 

All this is true, but 100 people who were most likely already out don't really make a ding in the strength of the church. In all likelihood these 100 left long before they made it official with the paperwork.  

 

If you look at the church's growth rate compared to population growth, and take into consideration the high Mormon birth rate and the huge missionary force, then it's cause for concern. We're treading water despite two major growth areas that should have the church growing faster than population growth. 

[stemelbow]

Meh, I find these events to be mostly self-serving.  I know the organizer said it was to let others know they aren't alone (or some derivative of that), but it's the Internet age; Google will let you know in fractions of a second how alone you are, or aren't.

Sometimes it doesn't matter how many people you find on the internet who feel the same as you. They are on the internet. They aren't in your family or neighborhood--people who one might see and associate with all the time. I think you have a point, for sure, but it's also true that people want more connection than with random people on the internet.

I know for me, no matter how much I read and reach out on the internet, I still feel alone at Church sometimes.

[jkwilliams]

All this is true, but 100 people who were most likely already out don't really make a ding in the strength of the church. In all likelihood these 100 left long before they made it official with the paperwork.  

 

If you look at the church's growth rate compared to population growth, and take into consideration the high Mormon birth rate and the huge missionary force, then it's cause for concern. We're treading water despite two major growth areas that should have the church growing faster than population growth. 

 

Agreed. Growth is not good in North America or Europe, and while statistically insignificant, the increase in the loss of previously active, tithe-paying, "core" members has to be troubling to the leadership. 

[Avatar4321]

Side note: I wish we would stop talking about how we aren't growing and instead just get to work on growing.

[jkwilliams]

Side note: I wish we would stop talking about how we aren't growing and instead just get to work on growing.

 

You want me to get to work on church growth? Imagine what would happen! 

[ttribe]

Yeah. Meeting people face to face is so overrated. The LDS Church should move toward internet meetings. Google could reveal in fractions of a second how many members are streaming each meeting. The ward clerk wouldn't have to walk up and down each aisle to get a count.

 

Now you're on to something!  No more white shirts and ties!  WOOT!

[jkwilliams]

Now you're on to something!  No more white shirts and ties!  WOOT!

 

I predict you would see about the same amount of "multitasking" as you do in regular meetings.

[ttribe]

I predict you would see about the same amount of "multitasking" as you do in regular meetings.

 

[KevinG]

You want me to get to work on church growth? Imagine what would happen! 

 

You mean more than in your current advisory capacity?  

[Scott Lloyd]

All this is true, but 100 people who were most likely already out don't really make a ding in the strength of the church. In all likelihood these 100 left long before they made it official with the paperwork.  

 

If you look at the church's growth rate compared to population growth, and take into consideration the high Mormon birth rate and the huge missionary force, then it's cause for concern. We're treading water despite two major growth areas that should have the church growing faster than population growth. 

Cause for concern, perhaps, but not hand wringing.

 

Slowing of growth in the Church reflects current societal trends in general in which younger people are rejecting religion generally and standards of decency are being eschewed. I don't think that's so much a result of what the Church of Jesus Christ is or isn't doing. It's just reflective of the general spread of wickedness in the last days.

 

And let's bear in mind what has been prophesied:

 

12 And it came to pass that I beheld the church of the Lamb of God, and its numbers were ^afew, because of the wickedness and abominations of the whore who sat upon many waters; nevertheless, I beheld that the church of the Lamb, who were the saints of God, were also upon ^ball the face of the earth; and their dominions upon the face of the earth were small, because of the wickedness of the great whore whom I saw.

 13 And it came to pass that I beheld that the great mother of abominations did gather together multitudes upon the face of all the earth, among all the nations of the Gentiles, to ^afight against the Lamb of God.

 14 And it came to pass that I, Nephi, beheld the power of the Lamb of God, that it descended upon the saints of the church of the Lamb, and upon the covenant people of the Lord, who were scattered upon all the face of the earth; and they were ^aarmed with ^brighteousness and with the ^cpower of God in great glory.

 

So the prophecy beheld in vision by Nephi is that the church of the Lamb of God would be "upon all the face of the earth" but that its numbers would be few "because of the great whore whom I saw," meaning the devil and his followers collectively.

 

We need not lose courage when we see that happening, knowing that it has been prophesied. Rather, we can have hope in being "armed with righteousness and with the power of God in great glory" as we prepare for the coming of Christ and the millennium when His gospel truly will fill the earth as symbolized by Nebuchadnezzer's dream of the stone cut out of the mountain without hands.