jkwilliams Posted July 27, 2015 Posted July 27, 2015 A contrived opportunity to stick it to the Church of Jesus Christ. That's what it meant. I don't know. I can think of a number of reasons people would do that, and they don't all involve sticking it to the church.
Mormonmaniac Posted July 27, 2015 Posted July 27, 2015 Here: On Saturday, six years after ending her participation in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, (Logan resident Stephanie) Engle took a final step to sever her ties with the Salt Lake City-based faith. With a signed letter in hand, Engle joined with roughly 100 current and former Mormons — including Ordain Women co-founder Kate Kelly — at a mass-resignation event a block from the church's downtown headquarters. ... Organizer Brooke Swallow said the event — similar to other mass resignations staged from time to time — was intended to provide a sense of community for people leaving Mormonism. She said the resignations are not done out of anger nor to provoke the church, but to show a sense of dissatisfaction among church dissidents. "We know that it's a painful process," she said. "Some people are ostracized or they feel like they need to ostracize themselves from their Mormon families." After gathering at City Creek Park, participants crossed North Temple and State Street to deliver their resignation letters to the LDS Church Office Building. Because of noise from traffic, the group continued walking around Temple Square, briefly falling into disarray before regrouping at City Creek Park to hear remarks from speakers, including Kelly and former LDS bishop Earl Erskine, host of the online video series "Ex Mormon Files." ... He pointed to recent church essays as evidence that LDS leaders are scrambling to maintain order. "They're on the defensive," he said. These articles — confronting touchy topics such as the long-ago abandoned practice of polygamy, the former ban on black males holding the faith's priesthood, and Mormonism's view of mankind's divine potential — have earned praise even from critics for their evenhanded treatment of historical and doctrinal issues. Kelly, who was excommunicated from the church last year after advocating for the inclusion of women in the all-male LDS priesthood, said that Mormons should stay in the faith if it brings them joy, and leave if it doesn't. "If you stay, you should raise hell," she said. "I think you have a moral imperative to make it a better place for children and especially for girls." ... Brent Parkin said he resigned three months ago after protracted discussions with the lay bishop of his Mormon congregation. He described the participants at the mass resignation — which took place the day after Pioneer Day, a celebration of the Mormon settlers' arrival in Utah — as pioneers at the early stages of what will be a mass exodus of disaffected Latter-day Saints. "The house of cards," he said, "is falling down." Thoughts? -Smac I hope they quickly find new hope in a different belief and move on. I truly wish them the best. But, I fear they will continue to hang around and be bent at the church their entire lives. Truly sad for them.
Thinking Posted July 27, 2015 Posted July 27, 2015 (edited) Thread better named.... "Mass Resignation NON-event" Well it's covered 4 pages on this board so far. On this article there are currently over 2200 comments. Hardly a NON-event. Wait! I just remembered that they have already been replaced by baptized 8-year-olds. All is well! Edited July 27, 2015 by Thinking
Scott Lloyd Posted July 27, 2015 Posted July 27, 2015 (edited) Well it's covered 4 pages on this board so far. On this article there are currently over 2200 comments. Hardly a NON-event. Wait! I just remembered that they have already been replaced by baptized 8-year-olds. All is well!Depends on what is meant by "non-event," I suppose. Zakuska may have had in mind that an occurrence that is contrived but severely lacking in significance or substance. Some folks are very adept at staging such things and attracting a lot of attention to them. We typically call them non-events. As I suggested earlier, if they intend to make these things a regular occurrence, let's see how much attention they draw after they've staged a few of them and the novelty begins to wear off. Edited July 27, 2015 by Scott Lloyd
jkwilliams Posted July 27, 2015 Posted July 27, 2015 Depends on what is meant by "non-event," I suppose. Zakuska may have had in mind that an occurrence that is contrived but severely lacking in significance or substance. Some folks are very adept at staging such things and attracting a lot of attention to them. We typically call them non-events. As I suggested earlier, if they intend to make these things a regular occurrence, let's see how much attention they draw after they've staged a few of them and the novelty begins to wear off. Ms. Swallow explained her reasons for holding the event, and if that's true, it's a pretty good reason for holding it. I get emails all the time from people who think they are all alone in their struggles with the church. Knowing that there are other people who have been where you are and can support you is a huge relief. So, if Ms. Swallow was telling the truth (and I have no reason to believe she wasn't), that's a good enough reason for me.
Nevo Posted July 27, 2015 Posted July 27, 2015 I have heard rumors, well sourced rumors from people I believe and who could know, but still rumors that the church will experience a major shift in the next few decades and from what I hear they expect North American members will have a hard time with them. The church will adapt more completely to local conditions and be less tied to standing institutions like the three hour block, having church buildings everywhere there is a congregation, shifting missionary assignments, and other changes. Elder Bednar hinted at these sorts of changes when he visited our stake a few months ago. FWIW.
Duncan Posted July 27, 2015 Posted July 27, 2015 Elder Bednar hinted at these sorts of changes when he visited our stake a few months ago. FWIW. do tell! you can PM if you want!
jkwilliams Posted July 27, 2015 Posted July 27, 2015 Elder Bednar hinted at these sorts of changes when he visited our stake a few months ago. FWIW. I'm always wary of these hints, as they never seem to amount to much.
stemelbow Posted July 27, 2015 Posted July 27, 2015 I have heard rumors, well sourced rumors from people I believe and who could know, but still rumors that the church will experience a major shift in the next few decades and from what I hear they expect North American members will have a hard time with them. The church will adapt more completely to local conditions and be less tied to standing institutions like the three hour block, having church buildings everywhere there is a congregation, shifting missionary assignments, and other changes. We live in interesting times. Then again it might just all be idle wind. Big, enormous, upsetting people is exactly what the Church needs, I'd say.
BookofMormonLuvr Posted July 27, 2015 Posted July 27, 2015 What other churches get examples of drama queens and kings like this. Is there "mass resignations" events held in front of Catholic or Baptist churches. Do Jews who are leaving the fold put on a show like this?JW's have their fair share of very vocal dissidents. Mormons don't have a lock on rabble-rousing ex-members.
cinepro Posted July 27, 2015 Posted July 27, 2015 If I were going to resign, I'd just send in a letter. But I'm sure that the event meant something to them, so I don't begrudge them doing it. To each his or her own. It's almost as if those people felt compelled to stand up in front of a group of like-minded believers and publicly express what they believe. I wonder where they were conditioned to do that? 1
cinepro Posted July 27, 2015 Posted July 27, 2015 I'm always wary of these hints, as they never seem to amount to much. The "next few decades" time frame is a little vague. Unless what Bednar really meant was "as soon as I'm Prophet..." 1
jkwilliams Posted July 27, 2015 Posted July 27, 2015 It's almost as if those people felt compelled to stand up in front of a group of like-minded believers and publicly express what they believe. I wonder where they were conditioned to do that? Shocking, isn't it? But really, if someone is passionate about what they believe, why on earth would we think it's wrong for them to express their beliefs publicly? I don't get it.
Scott Lloyd Posted July 27, 2015 Posted July 27, 2015 (edited) Ms. Swallow explained her reasons for holding the event, and if that's true, it's a pretty good reason for holding it. I get emails all the time from people who think they are all alone in their struggles with the church. Knowing that there are other people who have been where you are and can support you is a huge relief. So, if Ms. Swallow was telling the truth (and I have no reason to believe she wasn't), that's a good enough reason for me.So you're saying they're looking to "get the word out" about a matter of concern to a small segment of the populace. I might be seeking the same sort of thing for a family reunion I organize. Doesn't mean I would expect a general-circulation newspaper or TV station to publish or broadcast a news story about it (as opposed to a paid advertisement), or that I would make it seem to be something other than it actually is. Professional journalists learn to be skeptical about attempts to manipulate news media attention and public interest by inflating the noteworthiness and importance of a thing. Thus, my earlier suggestion that a good news reporter -- as opposed to a glorified stenographer -- would have endeavored to ascertain what proportion of attendees at this thing are actually newly minted apostates as opposed to longtime antagonists with a perennial axe to grind. And a prudent consumer of information will have such questions in mind when encountering reports such as this. Edited July 27, 2015 by Scott Lloyd 1
Scott Lloyd Posted July 27, 2015 Posted July 27, 2015 It's almost as if those people felt compelled to stand up in front of a group of like-minded believers and publicly express what they believe. I wonder where they were conditioned to do that?How many wards try to manipulate the news media into showing up at and reporting on their fast-and-testimony meetings? 4
jkwilliams Posted July 27, 2015 Posted July 27, 2015 So you're saying they're looking to "get the word out" about a matter of concern to a small segment of the populace. I might be seeking the same sort of thing for a family reunion I organize. Doesn't mean I would expect a general-circulation newspaper or TV station to publish or broadcast a news story about it, or that I would make it seem to be something other than it actually is. Professional journalists learn to be skeptical about attempts to manipulate news media attention and public interest by making something seem more noteworthy and important than it actually is. Thus, my earlier suggestion that a good news reporter -- as opposed to a glorified stenographer -- would have endeavored to ascertain what proportion of attendees at this thing are actually newly minted apostates as opposed to longtime antagonists with a perennial axe to grind. And a prudent consumer of information will have such questions in mind. I'm just saying I don't have any reason to dispute what she said. I'm not a reporter, and I don't have much of an opinion about these events, but it sounded right to me. A lot of people feel desperately alone, and it helps to know there are people out there. It may be a small segment of the populace, but it's one we know is hurting and that, if we reach out, we can help. I've had this guy emailing me recently in despair because his faith has completely collapsed. He has felt totally alone, and the only people he's talked to have been harshly critical and have made him feel much worse. I've told him I don't care whether he stays in the church or leaves it, but I will always lend a listening ear and try to understand. I don't know where he'll end up, but I feel like he needs to be able to talk to someone who has been where he is. I don't expect you to agree or understand.
jkwilliams Posted July 27, 2015 Posted July 27, 2015 How many wards try to manipulate the news media into showing up at and reporting on their fast-and-testimony meetings? I think they have a public affairs representative to do that, don't they? 1
Scott Lloyd Posted July 27, 2015 Posted July 27, 2015 Elder Bednar hinted at these sorts of changes when he visited our stake a few months ago. FWIW.So did Elder Bednar talk specifically about being "less tied to standing institutions like the three hour block, having church buildings everywhere there is a congregation, shifting missionary assignments"?
Scott Lloyd Posted July 27, 2015 Posted July 27, 2015 I think they have a public affairs representative to do that, don't they? They have a public affairs representative invite news reporters to fast-and-testmony meetings with the intent to get them written up in the newspaper or reported on TV? Can you cite a specific instance?
stemelbow Posted July 27, 2015 Posted July 27, 2015 one person's sincere effort to reach out to another is scene by those who presume to know another's heart as manipulating. It's easy, I suppose, this game we play. that's why so many out of the Church accuse the Church, it's leaders and people of manipulation too.
Scott Lloyd Posted July 27, 2015 Posted July 27, 2015 I'm just saying I don't have any reason to dispute what she said. I'm not a reporter, and I don't have much of an opinion about these events, but it sounded right to me. A lot of people feel desperately alone, and it helps to know there are people out there. It may be a small segment of the populace, but it's one we know is hurting and that, if we reach out, we can help. I've had this guy emailing me recently in despair because his faith has completely collapsed. He has felt totally alone, and the only people he's talked to have been harshly critical and have made him feel much worse. I've told him I don't care whether he stays in the church or leaves it, but I will always lend a listening ear and try to understand. I don't know where he'll end up, but I feel like he needs to be able to talk to someone who has been where he is. I don't expect you to agree or understand.And I'm just saying that not everything of interest to a very limited segment of the public merits or warrants being reported in the local news media -- unless there is a concerted effort to manipulate public opinion by inflating its noteworthiness or importance. I think you're capable of understanding that. I have confidence in you.
jkwilliams Posted July 27, 2015 Posted July 27, 2015 They have a public affairs representative invite news reporters to fast-and-testmony meetings with the intent to get them written up in the newspaper or reported on TV? Can you cite a specific instance? How is what they did any different from, say, inviting them to spend a few days with missionaries or attend a temple open house? The church looks for positive publicity all the time. I don't see anything wrong with ex-Mormons doing the same. As I said, I don't expect you to agree.
Scott Lloyd Posted July 27, 2015 Posted July 27, 2015 (edited) one person's sincere effort to reach out to another is scene by those who presume to know another's heart as manipulating.It's easy, I suppose, this game we play. that's why so many out of the Church accuse the Church, it's leaders and people of manipulation too.Is that what you think is happening with a dog-and-pony show meant to impress the news media with an obviously adversarial stance toward the Church of Jesus Christ? We'll have to disagree on that one, I guess. Edited July 27, 2015 by Scott Lloyd 1
Scott Lloyd Posted July 27, 2015 Posted July 27, 2015 (edited) How is what they did any different from, say, inviting them to spend a few days with missionaries or attend a temple open house? The church looks for positive publicity all the time. I don't see anything wrong with ex-Mormons doing the same. As I said, I don't expect you to agree. "Positive publicity" for whom? In doing this, does the Church endeavor to put the faith of others in a negative light? But I think I'll back out of this conversation, lest I find myself the topic of one of your MDB discussions again. You may have the last word. Edited July 27, 2015 by Scott Lloyd
stemelbow Posted July 27, 2015 Posted July 27, 2015 Is that what you think is happening with a dog-and-pony show meant to impress the news media with an obviously adversarial stance toward the Church of Jesus Christ. We'll have to disagree on that one, I guess. Don't know that it matters what I do think, really. they stated their aims and the only reasoning there is to dispute it is to say "well I think they are being manipulative because I think so". I'm not convinced, personally. I prefer to give people the benefit of my doubts, let them speak for themselves, and other such old fashioned civil habits.
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