Popular Post sethpayne Posted July 23, 2015 Popular Post Posted July 23, 2015 So I've been reading the other thread on Free BYU with interest. I enjoyed my time at BYU and, while I didn't like certain aspects of the Honor Code (beard rules, hair length, stuff like that ...), I did my best to observe the Honor Code while I was a student. I thought, and still believe, that it was important to live up to what I agreed to. I knew going in that there were certain expectations and that I would need to respect them. This issue with people leaving the LDS Church presents some unique challenges. I agree that BYU, as a private institution, should set its own rules on enrollment and matriculation. What concerns me, however, is that if one chooses to leave the LDS Church, BYU could, in theory, put a hold on academic transcripts etc... This could create HUGE problems for students as it would prevent them from transferring etc... Now, I don't know of any situation where this has actually happened but the Honor Code is pretty explicit that is there are violations, holds can occur. The biggest problem with the policy as it exists today is that it fosters duplicity. Even when I was at BYU I knew of "underground Churches" where some LDS had actually converted to Evangelicalism and attended EV services in secret for fear of getting kicked out of BYU. I suppose a strict reading of the Honor Code meant that I should have been kicked out for not reporting these activities. Similarly, students who no longer wish to be LDS are likely to simply hide this fact until they graduate. So the practical result of the current policy actually encourages dishonesty on the part of students due to fear. So here is what I think would be a reasonable compromise that protects the integrity of BYU's Honor Code while also treating ex-LDS students with respect and not doing anything that could harm their future professional or academic careers. 1. BYU maintains its policy that disaffiliation is an Honor Code violation2. However, this violation is treated differently than say, smoking weed on campus or throwing a Rave up Provo Canyon. Students are allowed to complete the current semester.3. BYU puts no holds on academic transcripts and allows the ex-LDS student to transfer out without any issues whatsoever4. Just to be extra-nice, academic advisors would be trained to help ex-LDS students transfer -- just like they help any other student To me this seems like a win-win. BYU keeps its policy while doing no harm, whatsoever, to ex-LDS students. Students who want to disaffiliate know that they may do so without being kicked out of the University mid-term. They also know that they won't face any problem in transferring their records to another University. 9
ttribe Posted July 23, 2015 Posted July 23, 2015 I agree...http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/64559-free-byu/?p=1209517661 3
sethpayne Posted July 23, 2015 Author Posted July 23, 2015 I agree...http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/64559-free-byu/?p=1209517661 Further proof that ttribe is much more forward-thinking than I am. 1
ttribe Posted July 23, 2015 Posted July 23, 2015 Further proof that ttribe is much more forward-thinking than I am. Oh, I think we both know that's not true. I get lucky with a cogent thought from time to time, that's about it. 1
The Nehor Posted July 23, 2015 Posted July 23, 2015 I am failing to see how this provides adequate punishment for heretical apostates. 1
rockpond Posted July 23, 2015 Posted July 23, 2015 So I've been reading the other thread on Free BYU with interest. I enjoyed my time at BYU and, while I didn't like certain aspects of the Honor Code (beard rules, hair length, stuff like that ...), I did my best to observe the Honor Code while I was a student. I thought, and still believe, that it was important to live up to what I agreed to. I knew going in that there were certain expectations and that I would need to respect them. This issue with people leaving the LDS Church presents some unique challenges. I agree that BYU, as a private institution, should set its own rules on enrollment and matriculation. What concerns me, however, is that if one chooses to leave the LDS Church, BYU could, in theory, put a hold on academic transcripts etc... This could create HUGE problems for students as it would prevent them from transferring etc... Now, I don't know of any situation where this has actually happened but the Honor Code is pretty explicit that is there are violations, holds can occur. The biggest problem with the policy as it exists today is that it fosters duplicity. Even when I was at BYU I knew of "underground Churches" where some LDS had actually converted to Evangelicalism and attended EV services in secret for fear of getting kicked out of BYU. I suppose a strict reading of the Honor Code meant that I should have been kicked out for not reporting these activities. Similarly, students who no longer wish to be LDS are likely to simply hide this fact until they graduate. So the practical result of the current policy actually encourages dishonesty on the part of students due to fear. So here is what I think would be a reasonable compromise that protects the integrity of BYU's Honor Code while also treating ex-LDS students with respect and not doing anything that could harm their future professional or academic careers. 1. BYU maintains its policy that disaffiliation is an Honor Code violation2. However, this violation is treated differently than say, smoking weed on campus or throwing a Rave up Provo Canyon. Students are allowed to complete the current semester.3. BYU puts no holds on academic transcripts and allows the ex-LDS student to transfer out without any issues whatsoever4. Just to be extra-nice, academic advisors would be trained to help ex-LDS students transfer -- just like they help any other student To me this seems like a win-win. BYU keeps its policy while doing no harm, whatsoever, to ex-LDS students. Students who want to disaffiliate know that they may do so without being kicked out of the University mid-term. They also know that they won't face any problem in transferring their records to another University. Great post and idea. Thanks.
ksfisher Posted July 23, 2015 Posted July 23, 2015 So I've been reading the other thread on Free BYU with interest. I enjoyed my time at BYU and, while I didn't like certain aspects of the Honor Code (beard rules, hair length, stuff like that ...), I did my best to observe the Honor Code while I was a student. I thought, and still believe, that it was important to live up to what I agreed to. I knew going in that there were certain expectations and that I would need to respect them. This issue with people leaving the LDS Church presents some unique challenges. I agree that BYU, as a private institution, should set its own rules on enrollment and matriculation. What concerns me, however, is that if one chooses to leave the LDS Church, BYU could, in theory, put a hold on academic transcripts etc... This could create HUGE problems for students as it would prevent them from transferring etc... Now, I don't know of any situation where this has actually happened but the Honor Code is pretty explicit that is there are violations, holds can occur. The biggest problem with the policy as it exists today is that it fosters duplicity. Even when I was at BYU I knew of "underground Churches" where some LDS had actually converted to Evangelicalism and attended EV services in secret for fear of getting kicked out of BYU. I suppose a strict reading of the Honor Code meant that I should have been kicked out for not reporting these activities. Similarly, students who no longer wish to be LDS are likely to simply hide this fact until they graduate. So the practical result of the current policy actually encourages dishonesty on the part of students due to fear. So here is what I think would be a reasonable compromise that protects the integrity of BYU's Honor Code while also treating ex-LDS students with respect and not doing anything that could harm their future professional or academic careers. 1. BYU maintains its policy that disaffiliation is an Honor Code violation2. However, this violation is treated differently than say, smoking weed on campus or throwing a Rave up Provo Canyon. Students are allowed to complete the current semester.3. BYU puts no holds on academic transcripts and allows the ex-LDS student to transfer out without any issues whatsoever4. Just to be extra-nice, academic advisors would be trained to help ex-LDS students transfer -- just like they help any other student To me this seems like a win-win. BYU keeps its policy while doing no harm, whatsoever, to ex-LDS students. Students who want to disaffiliate know that they may do so without being kicked out of the University mid-term. They also know that they won't face any problem in transferring their records to another University. Good ideas. I propose that we take the "Free BYU" idea one step further. Make BYU free (at least to my children). 1
Calm Posted July 23, 2015 Posted July 23, 2015 I have suggested everything but the no holds, but that was because I wasn't thinking of it at the time.I think this is the most practical arrangement for getting what BYU wants to create. If someone has evidence the current setup creates better compliance with the honour code then this likely will, I am open to changing my mind though. 1
ERayR Posted July 23, 2015 Posted July 23, 2015 The biggest problem with the policy as it exists today is that it fosters duplicity. Even when I was at BYU I knew of "underground Churches" where some LDS had actually converted to Evangelicalism and attended EV services in secret for fear of getting kicked out of BYU. I suppose a strict reading of the Honor Code meant that I should have been kicked out for not reporting these activities. Similarly, students who no longer wish to be LDS are likely to simply hide this fact until they graduate. So the practical result of the current policy actually encourages dishonesty on the part of students due to fear. Would you feel comfortable having such a person handle your pension fund investments for you?
ttribe Posted July 23, 2015 Posted July 23, 2015 Would you feel comfortable having such a person handle your pension fund investments for you? Huh? How is that relevant or comparable?
Kenngo1969 Posted July 23, 2015 Posted July 23, 2015 (edited) I certainly don't want to bring any rancor into the thread, as it's not the place for it. But I'll repeat what I said months ago on the "Free BYU" thread. I think motives matter a great deal. If someone discloses his loss or lack of faith to a BYU or an ecclesiastical official and wonders how to proceed in light of it, that, to me, is much different than someone who conceals his loss or lack of faith until, say, just before he's supposed to graduate, then turns the whole thing into a media circus so he can pontificate to anyone with a camera and a microphone, or a notebook and a pen, or a blog or a Web site, or a podcast, about how unfair BYU is. I agree, though, that BYU should help students transfer. My advocacy of an "own-up-to-your-feelings-and-seek-to-transfer" posture, however, was met with howls of scorn and derision, as some BYU credits ... ... don't transfer well, because BYU requires classes in ... ... religion. And not just in any religion, but classes in ... ... the Mormon religion. I took some extra classes after I transferred, but, apparently, requiring former BYU students to do the same somehow is grossly unfair. Edited July 23, 2015 by Kenngo1969 1
Kenngo1969 Posted July 23, 2015 Posted July 23, 2015 Huh? How is that relevant or comparable?Sing it with me, now: "Oh, hooooooooooonesty, is such a lonely word!" 1
ERayR Posted July 23, 2015 Posted July 23, 2015 Huh? How is that relevant or comparable? If one can not keep honor code commitments how can they be trusted to manage investment funds. 2
ksfisher Posted July 23, 2015 Posted July 23, 2015 One important aspect of honesty, as a society, is creating an atmosphere where people feel they can be honest. I think sethpayne's suggestions could do that. As a church we don't want to lose anyone, but on the other hand we don't want to create situations that challenge the ability to be honest of those who are struggling. We desire all to move forward, towards God. But no forward movement can take place if a person is pretending to be something that they're not. 1
ttribe Posted July 23, 2015 Posted July 23, 2015 Sing it with me, now: "Oh, hooooooooooonesty, is such a lonely word!" I get the larger issue, but the example is a poor one and I don't think it captures enough of the nuance to be useful. When I speak to businesses and groups about fraud perpetrated by employees we talk not only about the inherent honesty (or lack, thereof) of the fraudster, but also the circumstances businesses are creating that both incentivize fraud and make available the opportunities to commit it. 2
HappyJackWagon Posted July 23, 2015 Posted July 23, 2015 Seth Payne, I appreciate the effort of the OP. Getting rid of the holds would be a great start. But forcing someone to transfer based on their honest portrayal of belief still seems very heavy handed because in many cases BYU credits don't transfer well to other schools. For example, if I were in my 3rd year studying psychology and was being forced to transfer because of my beliefs I might be able to transfer 1/3 of my credits to my state university, setting my education back 2 years. The simplest solution I see is to keep the honor code but include the stipulation that LDS subsidy only applies if you are LDS. If you choose to be honest and disafilliate with LDS you will then pay the non-LDS tuition. It seems fair to me. BYU upholds its honor code, the student maintains his education credit and everyone benefits by the honest relationship between student and school. 2
ttribe Posted July 23, 2015 Posted July 23, 2015 If one can not keep honor code commitments how can they be trusted to manage investment funds. Nonsense. The degrees of difference between criminal acts and failing to get a beard card are enormous. That's about as good an example of black-and-white thinking as I've seen in a while. 3
ERayR Posted July 23, 2015 Posted July 23, 2015 Nonsense. The degrees of difference between criminal acts and failing to get a beard card are enormous. That's about as good an example of black-and-white thinking as I've seen in a while. And 'get a beard card' is about as good an example of trivializing lying to get thousands of dollars in subsidies from the church as I have seen. 1
ttribe Posted July 23, 2015 Posted July 23, 2015 And 'get a beard card' is about as good an example of trivializing lying to get thousands of dollars in subsidies from the church as I have seen. Uggh, this compromise would remove the "thousands of dollars in subsidies" from the equation. Have you not actually read this? 1
sethpayne Posted July 23, 2015 Author Posted July 23, 2015 Seth Payne, I appreciate the effort of the OP. Getting rid of the holds would be a great start. But forcing someone to transfer based on their honest portrayal of belief still seems very heavy handed because in many cases BYU credits don't transfer well to other schools. For example, if I were in my 3rd year studying psychology and was being forced to transfer because of my beliefs I might be able to transfer 1/3 of my credits to my state university, setting my education back 2 years. The simplest solution I see is to keep the honor code but include the stipulation that LDS subsidy only applies if you are LDS. If you choose to be honest and disafilliate with LDS you will then pay the non-LDS tuition. It seems fair to me. BYU upholds its honor code, the student maintains his education credit and everyone benefits by the honest relationship between student and school. HJW, I actually agree with you. I too think that it would be best to make accommodations for these students to stay. Having said that, I strongly believe that private institutions can and should make their own rules without external interference -- even when I may personally disagree with rule and policy decisions. I personally think your suggested solution is a good one but not one likely to be adopted. Seth 3
sethpayne Posted July 23, 2015 Author Posted July 23, 2015 (edited) Would you feel comfortable having such a person handle your pension fund investments for you? Yes. It shows they have the common sense to do what is necessary to prepare for the future. It may not be a decision I would personally make. But I don't besmirch anyone who has to make this difficult choice. Edited July 23, 2015 by sethpayne
Scott Lloyd Posted July 23, 2015 Posted July 23, 2015 (edited) Seth Payne, I appreciate the effort of the OP. Getting rid of the holds would be a great start. But forcing someone to transfer based on their honest portrayal of belief still seems very heavy handed because in many cases BYU credits don't transfer well to other schools. For example, if I were in my 3rd year studying psychology and was being forced to transfer because of my beliefs I might be able to transfer 1/3 of my credits to my state university, setting my education back 2 years. The simplest solution I see is to keep the honor code but include the stipulation that LDS subsidy only applies if you are LDS. If you choose to be honest and disafilliate with LDS you will then pay the non-LDS tuition. It seems fair to me. BYU upholds its honor code, the student maintains his education credit and everyone benefits by the honest relationship between student and school.What you offer as a "compromise" seems scarcely that. Not that I'm advocating the following, but I will pose the question out of curiosity: Suppose the university told them they could stay provided they not only pay the non-member rate of tuition henceforth but that they go back and retroactively pay the difference between the member cost and the non-member cost for each and every semester they were enrolled up to the time they apostatized. Would you see that as fair? Edited July 23, 2015 by Scott Lloyd
sethpayne Posted July 23, 2015 Author Posted July 23, 2015 I think motives matter a great deal. If someone discloses his loss or lack of faith to a BYU or an ecclesiastical official and wonders how to proceed in light of it, that, to me, is much different than someone who conceals his loss or lack of faith until, say, just before he's supposed to graduate, then turns the whole thing into a media circus so he can pontificate to anyone with a camera and a microphone, or a notebook and a pen, or a blog or a Web site, or a podcast, about how unfair BYU is. I agree with this. Intentionally creating a media circus to damage BYU is narcissistic egoism and ultimately pointless. 1
sethpayne Posted July 23, 2015 Author Posted July 23, 2015 Suppose the university told them they could stay provided they not only pay the non-member rate of tuition henceforth but that they go back and retroactively pay the difference between the member cost and the non-member cost for each and every semester they were enrolled up to the time they apostatized. Would see that as fair? Scott -- I'm not sure I would see that as being fair at all. When members, they paid member tuition. When non-members, they wouldn't . Retroactive charges seem punitive. 4
Scott Lloyd Posted July 23, 2015 Posted July 23, 2015 Nonsense. The degrees of difference between criminal acts and failing to get a beard card are enormous. That's about as good an example of black-and-white thinking as I've seen in a while.Duplicity is duplicity, ttribe. That's the term you used. I, for one, wouldn't trust such a person.
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