sethpayne Posted July 23, 2015 Author Posted July 23, 2015 (edited) And I think this is a very apt comparison to what I have suggested (but not advocated). I think if such an approach were adopted the Honor Code would need to be updated to make it clear that disaffiliation while enrolled would result in the repayment of money. Although I think such a policy would only make the problem of "underground" ex-LDS at BYU much more prominent. If this were implemented I also think that returned missionaries should receive tuition credit equal to the money spent on missionary service. Edited July 23, 2015 by sethpayne
Scott Lloyd Posted July 23, 2015 Posted July 23, 2015 I think if such an approach were adopted the Honor Code would need to be updated to make it clear that disaffiliation while enrolled would result in the repayment of money. Although I think such a policy would only make the problem of "underground" ex-LDS at BYU much more prominent. If this were implemented I also think that returned missionaries should receive tuition credit equal to the money spent on missionary service. As I said, I'm not advocating this (I want the Honor Code to remain as is). I only floated it to see what the reaction would be. As for tuition credit for missionary service, as the father of a son who is shortly to depart on a mission, I count it a privilege to pay whatever the cost to us will be (and to apply whatever contributions come from family and friends toward that cost), just as he counts it a privilege to serve willingly and freely.
rpn Posted July 23, 2015 Posted July 23, 2015 I don't think the institution can afford to allow critics to remain at BYU. But I'd not have any problem converting the work to remote class viewing, and doing projects off campus and finishing the work remotely for the semester. 1
Calm Posted July 23, 2015 Posted July 23, 2015 Now that you mention it, this rings a bell with what we were told when I visited West Point with the Mormon Tabernacle Choir on July 4. They are indeed required under penalty of law to pay back the taxpayer subsidy if they elect to drop out after (I think) a year of enrollment. And I think this is a very apt comparison to what I have suggested (but not advocated).And no credits apparently transfer, they have to take the full four years no matter what.Tough school.
CV75 Posted July 23, 2015 Posted July 23, 2015 To me this seems like a win-win. BYU keeps its policy while doing no harm, whatsoever, to ex-LDS students. Students who want to disaffiliate know that they may do so without being kicked out of the University mid-term. They also know that they won't face any problem in transferring their records to another University.As you can see from your examples of avoiding consequences, there is flexibility in the system. There is certainly opposing forces to duplicity and turning a blind eye that also allow flexibility in avoiding unwanted consequences. I think the administrators know what goes on. Some can call the escape from harsh justice grace, some can call it luck, and some can call it genius. The policy allows any of it to work. So I think the policy respects personal agency on all fronts, rather than trying to control anyone's duplicity and honesty. I’m not sure why BYU would create a special disaffiliation policy for the fearful that prevents holds, mid-term expulsions, etc. that “could, in theory” happen but haven’t – I’m sure we’d have heard about it, loud and clear!
Calm Posted July 23, 2015 Posted July 23, 2015 I don't see the necessity of removing cooperative former believers immediately since new students come in at the semester so their spot would just be empty until semester's end anyway but if there is some concern, I think RPN's suggestion is a good one for all those that can work that way (lab work like organic chemistry might be hard)...though I favour immediate booting for activism against the Church (my definition will probably vary from others). 1
Scott Lloyd Posted July 23, 2015 Posted July 23, 2015 And no credits apparently transfer, they have to take the full four years no matter what.Tough school.You think it's tough now? In the old days (centuries ago) they were executed for certain infractions -- according to what we were told.
sethpayne Posted July 23, 2015 Author Posted July 23, 2015 As I said, I'm not advocating this (I want the Honor Code to remain as is). I only floated it to see what the reaction would be. As for tuition credit for missionary service, as the father of a son who is shortly to depart on a mission, I count it a privilege to pay whatever the cost to us will be (and to apply whatever contributions come from family and friends toward that cost), just as he counts it a privilege to serve willingly and freely. Apparently you didn't catch the sarcasm. I need to remember to use the /sarcasm tag more often.
sheilauk Posted July 23, 2015 Posted July 23, 2015 So here is what I think would be a reasonable compromise that protects the integrity of BYU's Honor Code while also treating ex-LDS students with respect and not doing anything that could harm their future professional or academic careers. 1. BYU maintains its policy that disaffiliation is an Honor Code violation2. However, this violation is treated differently than say, smoking weed on campus or throwing a Rave up Provo Canyon. Students are allowed to complete the current semester.3. BYU puts no holds on academic transcripts and allows the ex-LDS student to transfer out without any issues whatsoever4. Just to be extra-nice, academic advisors would be trained to help ex-LDS students transfer -- just like they help any other student To me this seems like a win-win. BYU keeps its policy while doing no harm, whatsoever, to ex-LDS students. Students who want to disaffiliate know that they may do so without being kicked out of the University mid-term. They also know that they won't face any problem in transferring their records to another University.So, if I understand it, BYU credits aren't all accepted by other Universities, thus students would have to work extra hard and longer to complete a degree? And BYU doesn't help students transfer if they want to? The four points above seem reasonable to me, assuming that the student agrees to stand by the rest of the Honor Code for the remainder of the semester. Just as individuals should be prepared to leave organisations they no longer support, organisations ought to be able to let them go. 2
Calm Posted July 23, 2015 Posted July 23, 2015 (edited) Religion courses are like institute and at least when I went some were no more than glorified Sunday School. I personally think they should remove these as credits and just require attendance, no effect on grades, etc. Only give credit for religion courses such as are taught at secular universities, such as those that teach actual language, textual criticism, historical criticism, etc.Students at other colleges take institute in their free time, granted it may not be required but given the subsidy I do not think this is an undue hardship. Edited July 23, 2015 by calmoriah
Storm Rider Posted July 23, 2015 Posted July 23, 2015 So I've been reading the other thread on Free BYU with interest. I enjoyed my time at BYU and, while I didn't like certain aspects of the Honor Code (beard rules, hair length, stuff like that ...), I did my best to observe the Honor Code while I was a student. I thought, and still believe, that it was important to live up to what I agreed to. I knew going in that there were certain expectations and that I would need to respect them. This issue with people leaving the LDS Church presents some unique challenges. I agree that BYU, as a private institution, should set its own rules on enrollment and matriculation. What concerns me, however, is that if one chooses to leave the LDS Church, BYU could, in theory, put a hold on academic transcripts etc... This could create HUGE problems for students as it would prevent them from transferring etc... Now, I don't know of any situation where this has actually happened but the Honor Code is pretty explicit that is there are violations, holds can occur. The biggest problem with the policy as it exists today is that it fosters duplicity. Even when I was at BYU I knew of "underground Churches" where some LDS had actually converted to Evangelicalism and attended EV services in secret for fear of getting kicked out of BYU. I suppose a strict reading of the Honor Code meant that I should have been kicked out for not reporting these activities. Similarly, students who no longer wish to be LDS are likely to simply hide this fact until they graduate. So the practical result of the current policy actually encourages dishonesty on the part of students due to fear. So here is what I think would be a reasonable compromise that protects the integrity of BYU's Honor Code while also treating ex-LDS students with respect and not doing anything that could harm their future professional or academic careers. 1. BYU maintains its policy that disaffiliation is an Honor Code violation2. However, this violation is treated differently than say, smoking weed on campus or throwing a Rave up Provo Canyon. Students are allowed to complete the current semester.3. BYU puts no holds on academic transcripts and allows the ex-LDS student to transfer out without any issues whatsoever4. Just to be extra-nice, academic advisors would be trained to help ex-LDS students transfer -- just like they help any other student To me this seems like a win-win. BYU keeps its policy while doing no harm, whatsoever, to ex-LDS students. Students who want to disaffiliate know that they may do so without being kicked out of the University mid-term. They also know that they won't face any problem in transferring their records to another University. How does the current situation operate? Does everyone turn their back on the student? Are they marked with a scarlet letter? I see no problem with this type of process you presented.
Scott Lloyd Posted July 23, 2015 Posted July 23, 2015 So, if I understand it, BYU credits aren't all accepted by other Universities, thus students would have to work extra hard and longer to complete a degree? And BYU doesn't help students transfer if they want to? The four points above seem reasonable to me, assuming that the student agrees to stand by the rest of the Honor Code for the remainder of the semester. Just as individuals should be prepared to leave organisations they no longer support, organisations ought to be able to let them go.There may be some problem with transferring some credits (religion courses, for example) although I don't think it's nearly as big as it has been made out to be here. As has been pointed out, college students transfer all the time; if there are consequences, you take them in stride. And I'm not sure BYU doesn't already provide transfer services to students, even under less-than-ideal circumstances such as we are discussing here. Someone on the ground will have to enlighten me on that.
sethpayne Posted July 23, 2015 Author Posted July 23, 2015 So, if I understand it, BYU credits aren't all accepted by other Universities, thus students would have to work extra hard and longer to complete a degree?This is pretty common when transferring. I transferred to BYU and they didn't accept 6 or 9 credits. Can't remember which classes. But any transfer -- BYU or no -- will usually involve the loss of some credits. 1
Scott Lloyd Posted July 23, 2015 Posted July 23, 2015 Apparently you didn't catch the sarcasm. I need to remember to use the /sarcasm tag more often.I caught the sarcasm. I guess I'm just particularly sensitive to that subject right now.
Calm Posted July 23, 2015 Posted July 23, 2015 (edited) One additional recommend to the compromise...Tie Religion courses to endorsements just like Sunday meeting attendance and remove any effect on grades, credit hours, etc. Edited July 23, 2015 by calmoriah
sheilauk Posted July 23, 2015 Posted July 23, 2015 Thank you Scott and Sethpayne. So, if any transferring student loses credits and has to work that bit harder as a consequence of their decision, why shouldn't BYU students who lose belief simply transfer and face those same consequences for changing their stance? 1
Scott Lloyd Posted July 23, 2015 Posted July 23, 2015 One additional recommend to the compromise...Tie Religion courses to endorsements just like Sunday meeting attendance and remove any effect on grades, credit hours, etc.What incentive would there be to do well in the religion course? 1
Scott Lloyd Posted July 23, 2015 Posted July 23, 2015 Thank you Scott and Sethpayne. So, if any transferring student loses credits and has to work that bit harder as a consequence of their decision, why shouldn't BYU students who lose belief simply transfer and face those same consequences for changing their stance?Good point. It is certainly not "cruel and unusual" in terms of penalty.
Calm Posted July 23, 2015 Posted July 23, 2015 Same incentive for every sudent attending outside of BYU, but if thought necessary require a passing grade for the endorsement.
sethpayne Posted July 23, 2015 Author Posted July 23, 2015 Thank you Scott and Sethpayne. So, if any transferring student loses credits and has to work that bit harder as a consequence of their decision, why shouldn't BYU students who lose belief simply transfer and face those same consequences for changing their stance? I think as a matter of course, they would. There just isn't any way around it. However, academic advisors can be great resources in figuring out all of this stuff. And, I don't care where you go -- it makes sense to try and take classes that are most likely to transfer because you never know what's gonna happen. When I started college I didn't plan on BYU ... but that's how it worked out in the end. I count myself fortunate that so many credits transferred.
strappinglad Posted July 23, 2015 Posted July 23, 2015 I transferred credits from my first year to BYU. For my Math courses the prof had to see the text used and what was covered before approving certain credits. I was required to take additional courses at a different school in order to fulfill my teaching requirements for a different jurisdiction which were first completed at BYU. I also knew going in that no Mormon specific credits would transfer to any other school. Does there need to be a contract signed each semester and penalties spelled out for breach of contract? Much of this fuss comes from the entitlement attitude coupled with the victim mentality so ingrained nowadays. No matter what, the student should suffer NO consequences for decisions they made. Society has made that a universal condition from kindergarten on. Why should it change now?Horsefeathers! ( Senior rant off ) 2
sheilauk Posted July 23, 2015 Posted July 23, 2015 Much of this fuss comes from the entitlement attitude coupled with the victim mentality so ingrained nowadays. No matter what, the student should suffer NO consequences for decisions they made. Society has made that a universal condition from kindergarten on. Why should it change now? I know someone who teaches in a university in the UK and they say the same thing - that more and more students now act as though they are entitled and even object to low marks (when they haven't done the work) because they don't see why their actions should have consequences.
Calm Posted July 23, 2015 Posted July 23, 2015 Many of the professors here at UVU and up in Calgary have said the same thing in my experience. The students are even arguing with my husband they should get a passing grade for just showing up and not doing the work or even not showing up in a few cases iirc. Sorry, guys, but my husband is being paid not to babysit you, but to ensure you get an education. If you don't want one, then don't go and don't pay him for the service. 2
ERayR Posted July 23, 2015 Posted July 23, 2015 I know someone who teaches in a university in the UK and they say the same thing - that more and more students now act as though they are entitled and even object to low marks (when they haven't done the work) because they don't see why their actions should have consequences. I paid what fees were not subsidized and I attend most of the time and now you tell me I have to maintain a GPA? 1
sethpayne Posted July 23, 2015 Author Posted July 23, 2015 How does the current situation operate? Does everyone turn their back on the student? Are they marked with a scarlet letter? I see no problem with this type of process you presented. I don't think it's that dramatic and I've heard no reports of mistreatment by the University. And even though Chard Hardy is a complete jackass, he did complete all credits and likely should have received a diploma ... but oh well. BYU isn't the only University to withhold a diploma for moral reasons. When I was at NYU, they made the call to not issue a diploma to an MBA student who had been involved in major SEC violations. In any case, I regret ever having defended Hardy however long ago that was. And as I say, I don't personally know of anyone who has had their records or diploma withheld (except Hardy).
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