Rock Waterman Excommunicated

[Scott Lloyd]

We are talking about Rock Waterman's claimed testimony of Joseph Smith but his belief that the current leadership are not receiving and proclaiming revelation as well as leading the church astray.

I have met many evangelical Christians who claim they prayed about the Book of Mornon and were told it was false.

Polygamist grow claim a testimony of Joseph Smith and the Book of Moromon and some of their self proclaimed prophet,

Are all of these testimonies less valid than yours or Mikegriffith's ?

 

 

I haven't met "many" Evangelicals who make this claim but I recall one who did on a message board long ago. It was clear from her attitude that whatever praying she had done in that regard -- if she had done any at all -- was not with "real intent," as it says in Moroni, but in a prideful effort to put Mormons in their place. God is not going to reveal sacred truth to one with that kind of attitude.

But I doubt you have met "many" Evangelicals who make that claim. Those whom I've conversed with generally argue that feelings of the heart are not a reliable determination. They claim they have arrived at their conclusions solely by reading the Bible and reasoning therefrom. They are contemptuous of Mormons for saying that one can seek and receive a witness from the Holy Spirit. It is as though they disbelieve Christ's words when He said the Father would not give a stone to one who asked for bread or a serpent to one who asked for fish. So in addition to lacking real intent, they seem to lack another qualification in Moroni's promise, which is to have faith in Christ, or at least they lack faith in His words that those who ask will receive and that God will manifest the truth unto the seeker by the power of the Holy Ghost.

 

 

I could care less whether you doubt it or not. I know dozens if not more evangelicals who think their witness is as valid as yours. Yet your answer is they did not have real intent. Well did you have real intent when you asked if their religion was true? Or have you ever bothered?

But earlier you were speaking specifically of Evangelicals "who claim they prayed about the Book of Mormon and were told it was false." Those are your very words; see your post quoted above. I have emphasized your words with boldface type so you can spot them easily.

 

Are you now changing your story? It surely appears so.

 

My comment had specific reference to someone crowing on a message board that she had prayed about the Book of Mormon and had been told it was false. Since her approach was obviously an attempt to put the Mormons in their place, I doubted the veracity of whatever witness she claimed to have received, reasoning that the Lord is unlikely to reward a prideful and spiteful attitude with a revelation of sacred truth. That's what I meant by "having real intent" as it is phrased in Moroni's promise.

 

 

Well did you have real intent when you asked if their religion was true? Or have you ever bothered?

 

 

What is it you're really asking here? Have I prayed to know whether anti-Mormons are right in declaring the Book of Mormon to be false? Why should I do that when I have already received a spiritual witness of its truthfulness?

 

You're not making sense here, Teancum.

Edited June 12, 2015 by Scott Lloyd

[Mystery Meat]

It is not a lie that good honest believers claim a witness of something they claim is true that differs from yours and they believe it sincerely. So you must think they are all liars or deceived since you state God does not give conflicting answers or witnesses. And I agree. The other clear conclusion is God is not giving any of them thus the unreliability of this method to determine truth.

Let me ask you something. Would you fly in an airplane that was built by someone who claimed to get the plans for the plane by a witness of the spirit?

 

Sure, if I had a witness from the Spirit that confirmed the other's witness.

[Avatar4321]

But earlier you were speaking specifically of Evangelicals "who claim they prayed about the Book of Mormon and were told it was false." Those are your very words; see your post quoted above. I have emphasized your words with boldface type so you can spot them easily.

 

Are you now changing your story? It surely appears so.

 

My comment had specific reference to someone crowing on a message board that she had prayed about the Book of Mormon and had been told it was false. Since her approach was obviously an attempt to put the Mormons in their place, I doubted the veracity of whatever witness she claimed to have received, reasoning that the Lord is unlikely to reward a prideful and spiteful attitude with a revelation of sacred truth. That's what I meant by "having real intent" as it is phrased in Moroni's promise.

 

 

What is it you're really asking here? Have I prayed to know whether anti-Mormons are right in declaring the Book of Mormon to be false? Why should I do that when I have already received a spiritual witness of its truthfulness?

 

You're not making sense here, Teancum.

I've never met anyone who wasn't an evangelical mocking the concept of personal revelation claiming to have had a spiritual witness that the Book of Mormon is untrue. Why should I believe the claims of people who claim to have a testimony while mocking the Holy Spirit?

And I've seen countless people who did not believe who were touched and converted by the Spirit.

This claim that everyone from every faith has a spiritual witness is completely unfounded. In fact, I don't know a single faith that teaches people to pray to find out truth from God. Even to most Christians it's a foreign concept.

[ERayR]

It is not a lie that good honest believers claim a witness of something they claim is true that differs from yours and they believe it sincerely. So you must think they are all liars or deceived since you state God does not give conflicting answers or witnesses. And I agree. The other clear conclusion is God is not giving any of them thus the unreliability of this method to determine truth.

Let me ask you something. Would you fly in an airplane that was built by someone who claimed to get the plans for the plane by a witness of the spirit?

 

Yes if I got a personal revelation confirming his claims.

[BookofMormonLuvr]

It is not a lie that good honest believers claim a witness of something they claim is true that differs from yours and they believe it sincerely. So you must think they are all liars or deceived since you state God does not give conflicting answers or witnesses. And I agree. The other clear conclusion is God is not giving any of them thus the unreliability of this method to determine truth.

Let me ask you something. Would you fly in an airplane that was built by someone who claimed to get the plans for the plane by a witness of the spirit?

Don't forget Laman and Lemuel examined the finished work and saw tat it was good, they didn't just jump in because Nephi said so. Also, they received some shocking evidence, themselves, of the LORD working with Nephi.

[Avatar4321]

It is not a lie that good honest believers claim a witness of something they claim is true that differs from yours and they believe it sincerely. So you must think they are all liars or deceived since you state God does not give conflicting answers or witnesses. And I agree. The other clear conclusion is God is not giving any of them thus the unreliability of this method to determine truth.

Let me ask you something. Would you fly in an airplane that was built by someone who claimed to get the plans for the plane by a witness of the spirit?

If it works, why not?

[Teancum]

But earlier you were speaking specifically of Evangelicals "who claim they prayed about the Book of Mormon and were told it was false." Those are your very words; see your post quoted above. I have emphasized your words with boldface type so you can spot them easily.

 

Are you now changing your story? It surely appears so.

 

My comment had specific reference to someone crowing on a message board that she had prayed about the Book of Mormon and had been told it was false. Since her approach was obviously an attempt to put the Mormons in their place, I doubted the veracity of whatever witness she claimed to have received, reasoning that the Lord is unlikely to reward a prideful and spiteful attitude with a revelation of sacred truth. That's what I meant by "having real intent" as it is phrased in Moroni's promise.

 

 

What is it you're really asking here? Have I prayed to know whether anti-Mormons are right in declaring the Book of Mormon to be false? Why should I do that when I have already received a spiritual witness of its truthfulness?

 

You're not making sense here, Teancum.

 

 

Oh Scott I think you understand my point and just want to play games.

 

Let me make it simple for you.

 

There are many, many, many people in the world who believe their own faith system with as much fervor and depth as you do.   Most of them, if you asked them, would claim some sort of spiritual witness. They may not say it the same way and LDS person does but they claim it.

 

I have many EV acquaintances as well as other Protestant, Catholics who practice fervently and a few very faithful Jewish acquaintances.  I have talked to them about their faith. They are as convinced that they have the truth as any LDS person.  Thus my point. Who is right?  What if the witnesses conflict?   Have you personally ever prayed about another faith or religion.  I think the answer is clearly no based on your post above. 

 

But my point is that this approach is totally unreliable to determine who is right and who is wrong and where the truth really is.  For you personally it may be fine.  But for you to impose your testimony as the absolute true answer and to consider others personal witness as inferior demonstrates the problem with this approach.

 

I think you understood this really and that this was the point I was making.

[Teancum]

If it works, why not?

 

 

I have  a bridge to sell you.

[Kenngo1969]

... But my point is that this approach [relying on a spiritual witness] is totally unreliable to determine who is right and who is wrong and where the truth really is.  For you personally it may be fine.  But for you to impose your testimony as the absolute true answer and to consider others personal witness as inferior demonstrates the problem with this approach. ...

 

Why?  If their faith has borne good fruit in their lives, who am I to question that?  I don't believe God gives me fruit, bread, and fish when I ask for them while giving my brothers and sisters who adhere to other faith traditions thorns, thistles, stones, and serpents.  I don't even believe He gives me fruit, bread, and fish while giving them something that seems like fruit but actually is kinda thorny and thistly, or something that seems like bread but actually is kinda stony, or something that seems like fish but actually is kinda serpenty.  Good fruit is good fruit, bread is bread, and fish is fish ... period.

 

I've only posted this link about a hundred times, now: maybe someday, someone will actually read it and tell me it has changed their outlook.  Yes, I'm a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints because I believe that's the best way to get the best harvest good fruit and other good things in my life, but I don't think God withholds those things from other people.  I see no point in trying to convince someone else he's "wrong" when he can point to good fruit his belief system bears in his life: more power to him. That doesn't mean all harvests are equal, but if he'd like to know how to increase his harvest, I'll be happy to share some ideas. Until then, I'll simply congratulate him on the good fruit he receives and hope he will return the favor.

 

https://greatgourdini.wordpress.com/2012/04/16/toward-interreligious-oneness/

Edited June 14, 2015 by Kenngo1969

[Teancum]

Why?  If their faith has borne good fruit in their lives, who am I to question that?  I don't believe God gives me fruit, bread, and fish when I ask for them while giving my brothers and sisters who adhere to other faith traditions thorns, thistles, stones, and serpents.  I don't even believe He gives me fruit, bread, and fish while giving them something that seems like fruit but actually is kinda thorny and thistly, or something that seems like bread but actually is kinda stony, or something that seems like fish but actually is kinda serpenty.  Good fruit is good fruit, bread is bread, and fish is fish ... period.

 

I've only posted this link about a hundred times, now: maybe someday, someone will actually read it and tell me it has changed their outlook.  Yes, I'm a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints because I believe that's the best way to get the best harvest good fruit and other good things in my life, but I don't think God withholds those things from other people.  I see no point in trying to convince someone else he's "wrong" when he can point to good fruit his belief system bears in his life: more power to him. That doesn't mean all harvests are equal, but if he'd like to know how to increase his harvest, I'll be happy to share some ideas. Until then, I'll simply congratulate him on the good fruit he receives and hope he will return the favor.

 

https://greatgourdini.wordpress.com/2012/04/16/toward-interreligious-oneness/

Some "truths" that people have a personal witness of are mutually exclusive.

[Tacenda]

Why? If their faith has borne good fruit in their lives, who am I to question that? I don't believe God gives me fruit, bread, and fish when I ask for them while giving my brothers and sisters who adhere to other faith traditions thorns, thistles, stones, and serpents. I don't even believe He gives me fruit, bread, and fish while giving them something that seems like fruit but actually is kinda thorny and thistly, or something that seems like bread but actually is kinda stony, or something that seems like fish but actually is kinda serpenty. Good fruit is good fruit, bread is bread, and fish is fish ... period.

I've only posted this link about a hundred times, now: maybe someday, someone will actually read it and tell me it has changed their outlook. Yes, I'm a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints because I believe that's the best way to get the best harvest good fruit and other good things in my life, but I don't think God withholds those things from other people. I see no point in trying to convince someone else he's "wrong" when he can point to good fruit his belief system bears in his life: more power to him. That doesn't mean all harvests are equal, but if he'd like to know how to increase his harvest, I'll be happy to share some ideas. Until then, I'll simply congratulate him on the good fruit he receives and hope he will return the favor.

https://greatgourdini.wordpress.com/2012/04/16/toward-interreligious-oneness/

This is the second post of yours I really like today. The first was about keeping covenants you've made, out of having the love from the Lord over doing it for some kind of reward, while still appreciating the blessings from it. So I will read your darn blog post! Edited June 15, 2015 by Tacenda

[Russell C McGregor]

Oh Scott I think you understand my point and just want to play games.

 

Let me make it simple for you.

 

There are many, many, many people in the world who believe their own faith system with as much fervor and depth as you do.   Most of them, if you asked them, would claim some sort of spiritual witness. They may not say it the same way and LDS person does but they claim it.

 

I have many EV acquaintances as well as other Protestant, Catholics who practice fervently and a few very faithful Jewish acquaintances.  I have talked to them about their faith. They are as convinced that they have the truth as any LDS person.  Thus my point. Who is right?  What if the witnesses conflict?   Have you personally ever prayed about another faith or religion.  I think the answer is clearly no based on your post above. 

 

But my point is that this approach is totally unreliable to determine who is right and who is wrong and where the truth really is.  For you personally it may be fine.  But for you to impose your testimony as the absolute true answer and to consider others personal witness as inferior demonstrates the problem with this approach.

 

I think you understood this really and that this was the point I was making.

So once again we see the pattern repeated. It goes like this:

 

1. Critic claims that other believers base their faith upon a specific spiritual witness that is indistinguishable from an LDS testimony.  Muslims are the most commonly cited others, but just about anyone will do.
2. LDS believer challenges that claim and asks for substantiation.
3. Critic, spitting with rage, accuses believer of ignorance, malfeasance, bad faith and halitosis.
4. LDS believer continues to challenge the assertion and ask for support.
5. Critic finally retreats to the assertion that others believe their religions too (well, duh!) but insists that it's really the same thing anyhow.

 

In reality, all you've done is draw attention to the fact that, while every faith tradition has believers, that's actually quite substantially different to an LDS testimony.

[Teancum]

So once again we see the pattern repeated. It goes like this:

 

• Critic claims that other believers base their faith upon a specific spiritual witness that is indistinguishable from an LDS testimony.  Muslims are the most commonly cited others, but just about anyone will do.
• LDS believer challenges that claim and asks for substantiation.
• Critic, spitting with rage, accuses believer of ignorance, malfeasance, bad faith and halitosis.
• LDS believer continues to challenge the assertion and ask for support.
• Critic finally retreats to the assertion that others believe their religions too (well, duh!) but insists that it's really the same thing anyhow.

 

In reality, all you've done is draw attention to the fact that, while every faith tradition has believers, that's actually quite substantially different to an LDS testimony.

Spitting with rage? Where and when? You are one I see a lot of raging in their posting style, more than most.

Do you deny people of other faiths have a spiritual experience as they believe is as valid as yours and thus they beleive what they have is true? Are you claiming the LDS experience is better, superior, different or special?

[Avatar4321]

No one has said people of other faiths don't have spiritual experiences.

The Spirit clearly teaches the Book of Mormon is true. I have yet to meet a single person who claims to have a contrary revelation who doesn't completely mock the concept of revelation.

[readstoomuch]

Rock and the others like him have to keep pushing and pushing. They really want the Church to sit and do nothing while they spout whatever vitriol they want to. I guess it only makes sense to establish some boundaries. It sounds like these poor brethren running the courts are trying to be as kind and fair as they can be. I would not want that job.

On a positive note. Even though my daughter is a feminist, I think she is getting fed up with the Ordain Women crowd. They have pushed her the wrong way finally. I think she is going to Church a bit and trying to sift through her feelings more positively towards the Gospel.

[Avatar4321]

Rock and the others like him have to keep pushing and pushing. They really want the Church to sit and do nothing while they spout whatever vitriol they want to. I guess it only makes sense to establish some boundaries. It sounds like these poor brethren running the courts are trying to be as kind and fair as they can be. I would not want that job.

On a positive note. Even though my daughter is a feminist, I think she is getting fed up with the Ordain Women crowd. They have pushed her the wrong way finally. I think she is going to Church a bit and trying to sift through her feelings more positively towards the Gospel.

I am happy to hear about your daughter coming back.

[Kenngo1969]

Some "truths" that people have a personal witness of are mutually exclusive.

And?  Stephen R. Covey once said we don't see things as they are; we see them as we are.  This concept can even include a thing like truth, especially religious truth; but even taking religion out of the equation for a second, philosophers have been pontificating about things like truth, the nature and meaning of existence, and so on, for millennia.  I don't think they're in danger of coming to agreement on any definitive answer anytime soon, but so what?  Alma said true seeds, good seeds, bear good fruit, period. Christ says we may know people and principles by their fruits, and that good people and good principles don't bring forth evil fruit, nor do evil people and evil principles bring forth good fruit.

 

You can keep right on insisting that I should tell someone, "No, sorry; you don't actually have any good fruit, bread, or fish there; you've only got thorns, thistles, stones, and serpents," or that I tell him, "No, sorry; I know you have what seems to you to be good fruit, bread, and fish there, but those actually are just ersatz fruit that's actually kinda thorny and thistly; ersatz bread that's actually kinda stony; and ersatz fish that's actually kinda 'serpenty.'"  But however long and hard you keep on insisting that I should do that, Stephen R. Covey was right: I see truth as I am, he sees truth as he is, and you see truth as you are.

 

The question of whether any given precept bears good fruit isn't just an interesting sidelight in the discussion: it's central to it.  

[Kenngo1969]

... In reality, all you've done is draw attention to the fact that, while every faith tradition has believers, that's actually quite substantially different to an LDS testimony.

With the exception of an evangelical trying to convince me that my witness of the Restored Gospel actually is false by singing a rousing chorus of, "Feelings, Nothing More Than Feelings ... FEE-lings, Whoa-whoa-whoa FEE-lings, Whoa-whoa-whoa FEE-lings ..." I don't necessarily know that that's true.  The only way I could find out would be to crawl into another person's skin, and that's impossible.  Yes, many people (including some Latter-day Saints) believe what they believe on the basis of tradition, and/or because their parents believed it, et cetera; and many non-LDS people have never bothered to ask God whether what they believe is true, but that doesn't mean none of them have.  If they have, and if they have received what, for them, is a spiritual witness, more power to them, but I really have no way of knowing how similar or how different their witness is from mine other than the fact that some (perhaps many) of the things we, respectively, believe, are different.  

 

And as much as we'd like to believe that perceiving the influence of the Holy Spirit in our lives is a simple, uncomplicated process (even though, in many ways, often, it is), it's not necessarily always so.  I've gone through a lot in my life that's absolutely bewildering.  I've fasted and prayed fervently to know what I should do in several different circumstances.  I've received what I thought were clear answers, and I've taken the paths those answers suggested ... but the result hasn't been what I'd hoped or expected.  Really, the only thing of which I am quite sure is that God loves me, because I feel that if I give that up, what else do I have?  I'm in yet another such circumstance now.  I took a job and made a move a far distance from my previous home giving up a tremendous support system, though maybe it was too good, in the process.  To now, the new job hasn't been a good fit.  I was sitting in the temple last week, and the air conditioning was high enough that I think I would/should have been cold, but I felt a warmth I couldn't explain.  Does that mean, "This job will work out"?  Does that mean, "This job won't work out, but 'Plan B' will work out"?   Does it mean, "Whatever else happens, know that I love you"?  Beats me.  If I were a betting man, my money would be on option three.

Edited June 15, 2015 by Kenngo1969

[Scott Lloyd]

Oh Scott I think you understand my point and just want to play games.

 

Let me make it simple for you.

 

There are many, many, many people in the world who believe their own faith system with as much fervor and depth as you do.   Most of them, if you asked them, would claim some sort of spiritual witness. They may not say it the same way and LDS person does but they claim it.

 

I have many EV acquaintances as well as other Protestant, Catholics who practice fervently and a few very faithful Jewish acquaintances.  I have talked to them about their faith. They are as convinced that they have the truth as any LDS person.  Thus my point. Who is right?  What if the witnesses conflict?   Have you personally ever prayed about another faith or religion.  I think the answer is clearly no based on your post above. 

 

But my point is that this approach is totally unreliable to determine who is right and who is wrong and where the truth really is.  For you personally it may be fine.  But for you to impose your testimony as the absolute true answer and to consider others personal witness as inferior demonstrates the problem with this approach.

 

I think you understood this really and that this was the point I was making.

So you are backing away from the claim that you "have met many evangelical Christians who claim they prayed about the Book of Mormon and were told it was false"?

 

Again, those are your words, and that is specifically what I was challenging.

 

Look, people of other faith traditions profess many things that I would agree with: the reality of God, the resurrection of Christ, that Christ atoned for the sins of the world, that God loves His children, etc. That people should have spiritual feelings connected with such truths does not strike me as incredible.

 

But I am challenging your assertion that I have quoted above. Rather than owning that statement and either affirming or retracting it, you change your story and then accuse me of playing games.

 

I can't respect that.

 

 

Have you personally ever prayed about another faith or religion.  I think the answer is clearly no based on your post above.

 

I say that this question has already been answered.

 

The aspects of others' religious professions that are true I don't need to pray about; I already have a witness that they are true.

 

As for their claims that contradict those things of which I have received a spiritual witness, why should I pray to know if their claims are true, when I have already received a witness to the contrary?

Edited June 15, 2015 by Scott Lloyd

[ttribe]

So you are backing away from the claim that you "have met many evangelical Christians who claim they prayed about the Book of Mormon and were told it was false"?

 

Again, those are your words, and that is specifically what I was challenging.

 

Look, people of other faith traditions profess many things that I would agree with: the reality of God, the resurrection of Christ, that Christ atoned for the sins of the world, that God loves His children, etc. That people should have spiritual feelings connected with such truths does not strike me as incredible.

 

But I am challenging your assertion that I have quoted above. Rather than owning that statement and either affirming or retracting it, you change your story and then accuse me of playing games.

 

I can't respect that.

 

I say that this question has already been answered.

 

The aspects of others' religious professions that are true I don't need to pray about; I already have a witness that they are true.

 

As for their claims that contradict those things of which I have received a spiritual witness, why should I pray to know if their claims are true, when I have already received a witness to the contrary?

 

Are you trying to suggest that no evangelical, anywhere, has made the claim that they've prayed about the truthfulness of the BoM and received a negative response?

[Scott Lloyd]

Are you trying to suggest that no evangelical, anywhere, has made the claim that they've prayed about the truthfulness of the BoM and received a negative response?

How could I be suggesting that, when I've already said I know firsthand of at least one who has?  To wit:

 

I haven't met "many" Evangelicals who make this claim but I recall one who did on a message board long ago. It was clear from her attitude that whatever praying she had done in that regard -- if she had done any at all -- was not with "real intent," as it says in Moroni, but in a prideful effort to put Mormons in their place. God is not going to reveal sacred truth to one with that kind of attitude.

But I doubt you have met "many" Evangelicals who make that claim. Those whom I've conversed with generally argue that feelings of the heart are not a reliable determination. They claim they have arrived at their conclusions solely by reading the Bible and reasoning therefrom. They are contemptuous of Mormons for saying that one can seek and receive a witness from the Holy Spirit. It is as though they disbelieve Christ's words when He said the Father would not give a stone to one who asked for bread or a serpent to one who asked for fish. So in addition to lacking real intent, they seem to lack another qualification in Moroni's promise, which is to have faith in Christ, or at least they lack faith in His words that those who ask will receive and that God will manifest the truth unto the seeker by the power of the Holy Ghost.

Edited June 15, 2015 by Scott Lloyd

[ttribe]

How could I be suggesting that, when I've already said I know firsthand of at least one who has?  To wit:

 

Sorry.  Forgot that one.  Then, I guess, what's the controversy with Teancum?  Having served my mission in TN and KY, I certainly encountered evangelical Christians who claimed to have prayed to know if the BoM was true and claimed to have received a negative result.  I don't feel like I'm in any position to judge their intent, however,

[Scott Lloyd]

Sorry.  Forgot that one.  Then, I guess, what's the controversy with Teancum?  Having served my mission in TN and KY, I certainly encountered evangelical Christians who claimed to have prayed to know if the BoM was true and claimed to have received a negative result.  I don't feel like I'm in any position to judge their intent, however,

I can only speak to my personal experience and say why it raises doubts in my mind. The message-board correspondent I spoke of was clearly adversarial in her intent.

 

As I said, "Those [anti-Mormon Evangelicals] whom I've conversed with generally argue that feelings of the heart are not a reliable determination. They claim they have arrived at their conclusions solely by reading the Bible and reasoning therefrom. They are contemptuous of Mormons for saying that one can seek and receive a witness from the Holy Spirit."

 

You can't credibly argue that feelings of the heart aren't a reliable determination and then turn around and claim that God told you the Book of Mormon is false. Such a position is inconsistent.

 

As I have already said, the provision in Moroni's promise is that one must pray "with real intent" and with faith in Christ. Making a show of prayer just so you can claim a negative answer and slap down Mormons in an argument is not praying "with real intent" to know the truth. It is, as Avatar 4321 characterized it, simply mockery.

Edited June 15, 2015 by Scott Lloyd

[ttribe]

I can only speak to my personal experience and say why it raises doubts in my mind. The message-board correspondent I spoke of was clearly adversarial in her intent.

 

As I said, "Those [anti-Mormon Evangelicals] whom I've conversed with generally argue that feelings of the heart are not a reliable determination. They claim they have arrived at their conclusions solely by reading the Bible and reasoning therefrom. They are contemptuous of Mormons for saying that one can seek and receive a witness from the Holy Spirit."

 

You can't credibly argue that feelings of the heart aren't a reliable determination and then turn around and claim that God told you the Book of Mormon is false. Such a position is inconsistent.

 

As I have already said, the provision in Moroni's promise is that one must pray "with real intent" and with faith in Christ. Making a show of prayer just so you can claim a negative answer and slap down Mormons in an argument is not praying "with real intent" to know the truth. It is, as Avatar 4321 characterized it, simply mockery.

 

Well, I guess I'll say I've certainly seen what you are talking about, but interacted with others who certainly didn't express "Anti-Mormon" positions and made the same claim.  A CFR won't help, though.  That's just my personal experience.

[Scott Lloyd]

Well, I guess I'll say I've certainly seen what you are talking about, but interacted with others who certainly didn't express "Anti-Mormon" positions and made the same claim.  A CFR won't help, though.  That's just my personal experience.

I stand by my observation that you can't credibly argue that feelings of the heart are an unreliable determination (something I've seen Evangelicals repeatedly assert) and also claim that you prayed and had God tell you the Book of Mormon is false. That is an inconsistent position; there's no escaping that fact.

 

I can see doing that if you're trying to make a mockery of the Mormon position.