Rock Waterman Excommunicated

[Calm]

He says that he wasn't told what he had done/written that was incorrect. 

In his blog he is quite clear that he knows his position is different from the current church leadership position.  That is the whole point of his blog, that he is pointing out where the Church currently differs from the "pure mormonism" of Joseph Smith as well as where past developments have steered the Church into inappropriate paths or where leaders have lied or otherwise erred.

 

I don't understand why he refuses to put the two and two together that appears obvious to me or why anyone else is doing the same.  He certainly did it in the NY Times article easily enough.

Edited June 6, 2015 by calmoriah

[Bobbieaware]

In his blog he is quite clear that he knows his position is different from the current church leadership position. That is the whole point of his blog, that he is pointing out where the Church currently differs from the "pure mormonism" of Joseph Smith as well as where past developments have steered the Church into inappropriate paths or where leaders have lied or otherwise erred.

I don't understand why he refuses to put the two and two together that appears obvious to me or why anyone else is doing the same. He certainly did it in the NY Times article easily enough.

It's because those who sympathize with him identify with him, and for that reason they feel threatened.

Edited June 6, 2015 by Bobbieaware

[Calm]

I think I will let those who do so speak for themselves and not attempt to read their minds at this point.

[Coreyb]

Btw my Cfr for what the brethren are wrong about is still not being answered.

He believes the Brethren are not doing their duty by being upfront with church finances, or being upfront about doctrine and revelation. You can read his blog at puremormonism.com for more on it. Is that what you are looking for?

[Kenngo1969]

Rock Waterman has long hair and a beard.  He must be A True Prophet !

 

[mikegriffith1]

Here is his short post with his announcement after the disciplinary council:

http://puremormonism.blogspot.com/2015/06/yerrrrr-out.html?m=1

He did a short interview prior to the disciplinary council:

http://mormonstories.org/rock-waterman-pre-disciplinary-council/

This one is interesting because he had an unwavering testimony of the Prophet Joseph Smith, the Restoration, and the Book of Mormon.

His primary criticism of the Church: lack of being guided by revelation.

It still seems unclear what constitutes his apostasy. He indicates that he'll provide more detail in a follow up interview on the MS Podcast.

 

This man does not have an unwavering testimony of Joseph Smith, the Restoration, and the Book of Mormon. One only needs to spend a few minutes on his blog to see that he is rejects the Church and that he deserved to be excommunicated. If I were his bishop, I would have held a church court on him quite a while ago, given his comments on his blog. 

 

The same Spirit that tells you that Joseph was a prophet and that the Book of Mormon is true will also tell you that President Monson is a prophet and that the Church is guided by revelation today.

[ALarson]

Rock Waterman has long hair and a beard.  He must be A True Prophet !

 

 

Rock has posted this about his hair:

 I'm just growing it out in order to donate it for a wig to be given to a cancer patient who lost all of hers. It has to be fifteen inches long at the pony tail, and I'll tell you it seems to be taking forever to get that last inch in.

Edited June 7, 2015 by ALarson

[Teancum]

This man does not have an unwavering testimony of Joseph Smith, the Restoration, and the Book of Mormon. One only needs to spend a few minutes on his blog to see that he is rejects the Church and that he deserved to be excommunicated. If I were his bishop, I would have held a church court on him quite a while ago, given his comments on his blog. 

 

The same Spirit that tells you that Joseph was a prophet and that the Book of Mormon is true will also tell you that President Monson is a prophet and that the Church is guided by revelation today.

So let me me see. He claims to have a testimony of the restoration but believes the current leaders and some in the past are out of sync with the church at the time of Joseph.

And because that differs from your testimony he is wrong. In addition because of that he deserves excommunication.

Got it!

[rodheadlee]

So let me me see. He claims to have a testimony of the restoration but believes the current leaders and some in the past are out of sync with the church at the time of Joseph.

And because that differs from your testimony he is wrong. In addition because of that he deserves excommunication.

Got it!

No you don't got it. I'm sure you've read what has been posted on Joseph Smiths words on correcting the Apostles leading to apostasy. Do you need me to go find them for you? 

Edited June 7, 2015 by rodheadlee

[Teancum]

No you don't got it. I'm sure you've read what has been posted on Joseph Smiths words on correcting the Apostles leading to apostasy. Do you need me to go find them for you?

If you wish and you think it will make a difference. But why is it seemingly a grevious sin here to doubt or question an LDS conforming testimony but not when someone totally trashed someone else's like Mikegriffith did for Rock Waterman's?

Is his spiritual witness less valid than yours or Mikegriffith's?

So yea I really do think I get it,

Edited June 7, 2015 by Teancum

[rodheadlee]

If you wish and you think it will make a difference. But why is it seemingly a grevious sin here to doubt or question an LDS conforming testimony but not when someone totally trashed someone else's like Mikegriffith did for Rock Waterman's?

Is his spiritual witness less valid than yours or Mikegriffith's?

So yea I really do think I get it,

This post was by Avatar4321 he collected the info, I'm not very good at searching so I didn't get the post number.

 

 

Btw I couldn't sleep and did some research last night and found some things we should remember:

https://www.lds.org/...ter-27?lang=eng

"I will give you one of the Keys of the mysteries of the Kingdom. It is an eternal principle, that has existed with God from all eternity: That man who rises up to condemn others, finding fault with the Church, saying that they are out of the way, while he himself is righteous, then know assuredly, that that man is in the high road to apostasy; and if he does not repent, will apostatize, as God lives.”

"Joseph Smith taught the importance of sustaining our Church leaders: “That man who rises up to condemn others, finding fault with the Church, saying that they are out of the way, while he himself is righteous, . . . that man is in the high road to apostasy.”"

"Heber C. Kimball, while serving as a counselor to President Brigham Young, reported: “I will give you a key which Brother Joseph Smith used to give in Nauvoo. He said that the very step of apostasy commenced with losing confidence in the leaders of this church and kingdom, and that whenever you discerned that spirit you might know that it would lead the possessor of it on the road to apostasy.”"

(Looks like Joseph taught brethrenite Mormonism)

Orson Hyde, a member of the Quorum of the Twelve, reported: “Joseph the Prophet … said, ‘Brethren, remember that the majority of this people will never go astray; and as long as you keep with the majority you are sure to enter the celestial kingdom.’”16

 

William G. Nelson reported: “I have heard the Prophet speak in public on many occasions. In one meeting I heard him say: ‘I will give you a key that will never rust,—if you will stay with the majority of the Twelve Apostles, and the records of the Church, you will never be led astray.’ The history of the Church has proven this to be true.”

"Ezra T. Clark remembered: “I heard the Prophet Joseph say that he would give the Saints a key whereby they would never be led away or deceived, and that was: The Lord would never suffer a majority of this people to be led away or deceived by imposters, nor would He allow the records of this Church to fall into the hands of the enemy."

And the last quote which I found particularly telling:

"The great Seer immediately replied: ‘Brother Behunin, you don’t know what you would do. No doubt these men once thought as you do. Before you joined this Church you stood on neutral ground. When the gospel was preached, good and evil were set before you. You could choose either or neither. There were two opposite masters inviting you to serve them. When you joined this Church you enlisted to serve God. When you did that you left the neutral ground, and you never can get back on to it. Should you forsake the Master you enlisted to serve, it will be by the instigation of the evil one, and you will follow his dictation and be his servant.’”

I read that and it makes me want to choose the Lord more. I've seen over and over the good fruits of the gospel. I don't want to ever be an enemy of it.

 

[rodheadlee]

It was post #211 good job Avatar4321.

[Teancum]

This post was by Avatar4321 he collected the info, I'm not very good at searching so I didn't get the post number.

 

 

Btw I couldn't sleep and did some research last night and found some things we should remember:https://www.lds.org/...ter-27?lang=eng"I will give you one of the Keys of the mysteries of the Kingdom. It is an eternal principle, that has existed with God from all eternity: That man who rises up to condemn others, finding fault with the Church, saying that they are out of the way, while he himself is righteous, then know assuredly, that that man is in the high road to apostasy; and if he does not repent, will apostatize, as God lives.”"Joseph Smith taught the importance of sustaining our Church leaders: “That man who rises up to condemn others, finding fault with the Church, saying that they are out of the way, while he himself is righteous, . . . that man is in the high road to apostasy.”""Heber C. Kimball, while serving as a counselor to President Brigham Young, reported: “I will give you a key which Brother Joseph Smith used to give in Nauvoo. He said that the very step of apostasy commenced with losing confidence in the leaders of this church and kingdom, and that whenever you discerned that spirit you might know that it would lead the possessor of it on the road to apostasy.”"(Looks like Joseph taught brethrenite Mormonism)Orson Hyde, a member of the Quorum of the Twelve, reported: “Joseph the Prophet … said, ‘Brethren, remember that the majority of this people will never go astray; and as long as you keep with the majority you are sure to enter the celestial kingdom.’”16

 

William G. Nelson reported: “I have heard the Prophet speak in public on many occasions. In one meeting I heard him say: ‘I will give you a key that will never rust,—if you will stay with the majority of the Twelve Apostles, and the records of the Church, you will never be led astray.’ The history of the Church has proven this to be true.”"Ezra T. Clark remembered: “I heard the Prophet Joseph say that he would give the Saints a key whereby they would never be led away or deceived, and that was: The Lord would never suffer a majority of this people to be led away or deceived by imposters, nor would He allow the records of this Church to fall into the hands of the enemy."And the last quote which I found particularly telling:"The great Seer immediately replied: ‘Brother Behunin, you don’t know what you would do. No doubt these men once thought as you do. Before you joined this Church you stood on neutral ground. When the gospel was preached, good and evil were set before you. You could choose either or neither. There were two opposite masters inviting you to serve them. When you joined this Church you enlisted to serve God. When you did that you left the neutral ground, and you never can get back on to it. Should you forsake the Master you enlisted to serve, it will be by the instigation of the evil one, and you will follow his dictation and be his servant.’”I read that and it makes me want to choose the Lord more. I've seen over and over the good fruits of the gospel. I don't want to ever be an enemy of it.

Thanks for the sources. I have some thoughts on it but not sure I will post it now.

On another note can you answer my question about the validity of your testimony over someone else's that may conflict with yours?

[rodheadlee]

 But why is it seemingly a grevious sin here to doubt or question an LDS conforming testimony but not when someone totally trashed someone else's like Mikegriffith did for Rock Waterman's?

Is his spiritual witness less valid than yours or Mikegriffith's?

 

Well, If Rock was following JS, how come he is not following the all the words of JS? The words regarding correcting the apostles?

[Bobbieaware]

This post was by Avatar4321 he collected the info, I'm not very good at searching so I didn't get the post number.

 

 

Btw I couldn't sleep and did some research last night and found some things we should remember:https://www.lds.org/...ter-27?lang=eng"I will give you one of the Keys of the mysteries of the Kingdom. It is an eternal principle, that has existed with God from all eternity: That man who rises up to condemn others, finding fault with the Church, saying that they are out of the way, while he himself is righteous, then know assuredly, that that man is in the high road to apostasy; and if he does not repent, will apostatize, as God lives.”"Joseph Smith taught the importance of sustaining our Church leaders: “That man who rises up to condemn others, finding fault with the Church, saying that they are out of the way, while he himself is righteous, . . . that man is in the high road to apostasy.”""Heber C. Kimball, while serving as a counselor to President Brigham Young, reported: “I will give you a key which Brother Joseph Smith used to give in Nauvoo. He said that the very step of apostasy commenced with losing confidence in the leaders of this church and kingdom, and that whenever you discerned that spirit you might know that it would lead the possessor of it on the road to apostasy.”"(Looks like Joseph taught brethrenite Mormonism)Orson Hyde, a member of the Quorum of the Twelve, reported: “Joseph the Prophet … said, ‘Brethren, remember that the majority of this people will never go astray; and as long as you keep with the majority you are sure to enter the celestial kingdom.’”16

 

William G. Nelson reported: “I have heard the Prophet speak in public on many occasions. In one meeting I heard him say: ‘I will give you a key that will never rust,—if you will stay with the majority of the Twelve Apostles, and the records of the Church, you will never be led astray.’ The history of the Church has proven this to be true.”"Ezra T. Clark remembered: “I heard the Prophet Joseph say that he would give the Saints a key whereby they would never be led away or deceived, and that was: The Lord would never suffer a majority of this people to be led away or deceived by imposters, nor would He allow the records of this Church to fall into the hands of the enemy."And the last quote which I found particularly telling:"The great Seer immediately replied: ‘Brother Behunin, you don’t know what you would do. No doubt these men once thought as you do. Before you joined this Church you stood on neutral ground. When the gospel was preached, good and evil were set before you. You could choose either or neither. There were two opposite masters inviting you to serve them. When you joined this Church you enlisted to serve God. When you did that you left the neutral ground, and you never can get back on to it. Should you forsake the Master you enlisted to serve, it will be by the instigation of the evil one, and you will follow his dictation and be his servant.’”I read that and it makes me want to choose the Lord more. I've seen over and over the good fruits of the gospel. I don't want to ever be an enemy of it.

That last quote is very powerful. It's very sobering to realize one can never go back to neutral ground. It appears the prophets are in dead earnest when they warn that the adversary is ever waging war against the saints, always probing for areas of weakness of faith that he might find a way to gain entrance into their hearts and overcome them.

[Teancum]

Well, If Rock was following JS, how come he is not following the all the words of JS? The words regarding correcting the apostles?

You would have to ask him. But he claims a spiritual witness that he believes is as powerful as yours. Is his less valid?

[rodheadlee]

You would have to ask him. But he claims a spiritual witness that he believes is as powerful as yours. Is his less valid?

No but his stewardship over me is not valid. We are each responsible for our own testimonies. It's not my place to publicly correct the leaders of the Lord's Church nor is it his. The leaders of the Church do have a valid stewardship to correct me and Rock.

Edited June 7, 2015 by rodheadlee

[Ticketyboo]

Sorry cross post, the joy of touch screen

Edited June 7, 2015 by Ticketyboo

[DBMormon]

I think this post from another thread (although slightly edited for context) I wrote is a perfect fit here:

I am not sure how anyone can think that the Lord thinks its okay for people to overstep their ecclesiastical stewardship, no matter their righteous intention, given scriptural precedent.

Part of trusting God is trusting HIM to not only call who He would have lead (even, GASP, Judas!) but that HE is capable of fixing any mistakes that NEED to be fixed through those He has called that have such authority. It is not going along with the mistake (moreover, I think the mistakes thrown at the feet of the brethren, 9/10, are perceived mistakes and are not actually so), its trusting the Lord to fix it (either Himself or through the PROPER order). For example, I am not a fan of BSA. I think it is a waste of a program. But I am not actively advocating for the Church's end to sponsorship. It's not my role. There are so many other things I would fix about the Church and its culture...but thankfully for members of the Church everywhere, I don't have the authority.

I think it is highly unfair to call this a "get in line and follow" approach. Implicit in that is a mindless body of members who have no capability to think for themselves. In fact, the more that I think about that, the more offensive such a label would be. This would be better labeled a "sustain" approach. We have leaders. God called them. He sustains them. We should too. If anyone can't see the difference between "get in line and follow" and sustaining they are in trouble.

Again, the Lord is perfectly capable of keeping His Church in order. If He felt like Waterman, Dehlin, lvjd66 or anyone else could make the Church resemble how He wanted it to look, He would put said person in the position to make it happen. Until He does, our job and responsibility is to sustain, i.e. to trust the Lord, who He has called, and to trust HIM to fix any mistake that NEEDS to be fixed through the proper channels (priesthood keys and stewardship, not anyone and everyone with a blog, podcast or Facebook page).

Anything less than this is not sustaining and is dangerous spiritual ground. Disagreements and questions are fine. I have them. But I also trust the Lord, not only to call who He wills, but to fix problems he sees fit to fix (if they even need to be fixed). I think people in western culture need to realize that the Lord does not need them to steady the ark or EVEN want them to attempt to do so (no matter their righteous intention), unless that is their calling and stewardship. It conflicts with everything we have been culturally taught about getting involved and probably some of our natural instinct. But the Lord's way is different.

Thus, not sustaining and trusting is a sin of pride.

i only wish it were that black and white or that Christ worked that directly with his leaders to correct false things and harmful things. Do you really think corrections the church makes occurs in a vacuum? Edited June 7, 2015 by DBMormon

[Scott Lloyd]

i only wish it were that black and white or that Christ worked that directly with his leaders to correct false things and harmful things.

Then I'm happy to give assurance that the thing you wish for is reality.

[DBMormon]

Then I'm happy to give assurance that the thing you wish for is reality.

I didn't know you were a magical fairy who grants unrealistic wishes

Edited June 7, 2015 by DBMormon

[Kenngo1969]

Rock Waterman has long hair and a beard.  He must be A True Prophet !

 

 

Rock has posted this about his hair:

 

 I'm just growing it out in order to donate it for a wig to be given to a cancer patient who lost all of hers. It has to be fifteen inches long at the pony tail, and I'll tell you it seems to be taking forever to get that last inch in.

 

Thanks for the info.  Whatever disagreements I may have with him, I also have a testimony of what the Lord said in Doctrine & Covenants 58:28:

 

And inasmuch as men do good they shall in nowise lose their reward.

 

[mikegriffith1]

So let me me see. He claims to have a testimony of the restoration but believes the current leaders and some in the past are out of sync with the church at the time of Joseph.

And because that differs from your testimony he is wrong. In addition because of that he deserves excommunication.

Got it!

 

Yes, that is exactly it, because you can't have a testimony of Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon and not have a testimony of President Monson and the Church in our day. It's impossible. The Holy Ghost will not tell you that Joseph and the Book of Mormon are true but that the current Church leaders are straying from the truth. If you truly have a testimony of Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon, then you will also have a testimony of President Monson and the Church in our day. If anyone says otherwise, they are deceived and/or are deceivers.

[Mystery Meat]

i only wish it were that black and white 

 

The good news is, is that it is that black and white. At least as far as me and you are concerned.

 

 

 

or that Christ worked that directly with his leaders to correct false things and harmful things. 

 

The bottom line, Bill, is that Christ has the capability to work with his anointed to correct things as he sees fit. And he does do it. Directly. Some things that you or me see as harmful may not be corrected. That tells us one of two things about the modern LDS Church: 1. They aren't things that are actually harm (we just think they are) OR 2. The Lord doesn't seem to be in any hurry to have them corrected. Those are the options. And if the Lord isn't in a hurry to correct them, why should we? If there are things that are harmful to us, and if we have sufficient faith, the Atonement is more than able of making up the difference.

 

 

 

Do you really think corrections the church makes occurs in a vacuum?

 

No. I never said that or implied it. I have firsthand experience working with General and Auxiliary Authorities. I have seen how the Church operates to receive and and understand revelation at nearly the highest levels. These leaders are nearly constantly out among the people; hearing stories, doubts, struggles, successes and triumphs of the members that are reflective of the membership at large. THEY ARE NOT IGNORANT OF THE ISSUES WE FACE TODAY. I know this from seeing it, on multiple occasions, first hand. They did not receive this knowledge from the Bloggernacle or a podcast or a Facebook post. 

 

So when you or I see something we don't like (and I see them, plenty of them) what are we supposed to do? What does the Lord expect of us? I think the scriptures and modern day prophets have made that abundantly clear. David O. McKay said, "Let us look around us and see how quickly men who attempt unauthoritatively to steady the ark die spiritually. Their souls become embittered, their minds distorted, their judgments faulty, and their spirits depressed. Such is the pitiable condition of men who, neglecting their own responsibilities spend their time in finding fault with others."

 

I have also seen this many times. And so I say that ark steadying is NOT from God. The Spirit will not tell any man to do it (unless that man/woman has authority/stewardship over the "ark"). And so if such a desire to steady the ark is not from God (and it clearly isn't) it could only by from one source. People seem to think that this is their Church; that they have a responsibility to fix its warts and blemishes. They are wrong on both counts. This is Christ's church. He is responsible for it and as such He has called who he wants in a position to fix the warts and blemishes that He wants to be fixed in the appropriate callings.

 

And so, I say again, it is that black and white really. Our job is to magnify our callings and perform our responsibilities (lift where we stand) that we have been given and NOT to unauthoritatively seek to steady the ark (left where other's have been called to stand). That does not mean we have to agree with everything (I don't). We are instructed to submit and be submissive, that includes, in my understanding and as (at the very least) implied by scripture, to submit to those who the Lord has called to lead (just as Laman, Lemuel and Sam were asked to do to Nephi). Those, who don't and instead seek to counsel those the Lord has called to counsel will die (literally in the case of the most famous ark steadier).

 

I am not sure how this is anything but black and white. 

[smac97]

Yes, that is exactly it, because you can't have a testimony of Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon and not have a testimony of President Monson and the Church in our day. It's impossible. The Holy Ghost will not tell you that Joseph and the Book of Mormon are true but that the current Church leaders are straying from the truth. If you truly have a testimony of Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon, then you will also have a testimony of President Monson and the Church in our day. If anyone says otherwise, they are deceived and/or are deceivers.

 

I am not sure I entirely agree with this.  I think it is possible to have a "partial" testimony, including one which accepts some fundamental and necessary truths and rejects others.  Thus Jews can have a "testimony" of some/all of the Old Testament but not the New Testimony, and Protestants and Catholics can have a testimony of Jesus Christ's Gospel as set forth in the Bible, but not the Restored Gospel as revealed to and through Joseph Smith.  I also think it is possible for a Latter-day Saint to have a testimony of some portions of the Restored Gospel, but not others.  Thus the Three Witnesses spent a combined 94 years of their post-Testimony-of-Three-Witnesses lives outside of the Church, with one of them (Whitmer) never returning.  All of them retained their testimony about the Gold Plates, but all were, for many years, at variance with Joseph Smith and the Church.

 

That is not to say that such a partial testimony is pleasing or acceptable to God:

 

2 Nehi 27:5 - "For behold, the Lord hath poured out upon you the spirit of deep sleep. For behold, ye have closed your eyes, and ye have rejected the prophets; and your rulers, and the seers hath he covered because of your iniquity."

 

2 Chron. 36:16 - "But they mocked the messengers of God, and despised his words, and misused his prophets, until the wrath of the Lord arose against his people, till there was no remedy."

 

Luke 16:31 - "If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."

 

3 Nephi 28:34 - "And wo be unto him that will not hearken unto the words of Jesus, and also to them whom he hath chosen and sent among them; for whoso receiveth not the words of Jesus and the words of those whom he hath sent receiveth not him; and therefore he will not receive them at the last day."

 

D&C 1:14 - "And the arm of the Lord shall be revealed; and the day cometh that they who will not hear the voice of the Lord, neither the voice of his servants, neither give heed to the words of the prophets and apostles, shall be cut off from among the people."

 

D&C 50:8 - "But the hypocrites shall be detected and shall be cut off, either in life or in death, even as I will; and wo unto them who are cut off from my church, for the same are overcome of the world."

 

D&C 124:46 - "But if they will not hearken to my voice, nor unto the voice of these men whom I have appointed, they shall not be blest, because they pollute mine holy grounds, and mine holy ordinances, and charters, and my holy words which I give unto them."

 

D&C 133:71 - "Behold, and lo, there are none to deliver you; for ye obeyed not my voice when I called to you out of the heavens; ye believed not my servants, and when they were sent unto you ye received them not."

 

D&C 138:21 - "Neither did the rebellious who rejected the testimonies and the warnings of the ancient prophets behold his presence, nor look upon his face."

 

Thanks,

 

-Smac

Edited June 7, 2015 by smac97