The Nehor Posted June 5, 2015 Posted June 5, 2015 If he is fully supporting what Joseph taught and questioning what modern leaders teach on the same subject, is he speaking evil of the Lord's annointed, or is he defending the Lord's anointed?He is not fully supporting Joseph who taught obedience. He is speaking evil.If he is fully Is it evil speaking to say, "Hey, I don't think you are doing that quite right." ?Which is a ridiculous understatement for what he is saying. It would be like saying that I think he is slightly misguided.If the watchmen begin to slumber, should we let them sleep or try to arise and awaken their faculties?I would instead trust those assigned to keep them awake to handle it if I believed it was needed (I do not). God is good at the whole awakening thing. He really does not need this moron's help. Plus said moron's approach is not working in any case. 2
Avatar4321 Posted June 5, 2015 Posted June 5, 2015 (edited) Maybe things like this:Alma amulek and the people did not seek out martyrdom. Edited June 5, 2015 by Avatar4321
Avatar4321 Posted June 5, 2015 Posted June 5, 2015 If he is fully supporting what Joseph taught and questioning what modern leaders teach on the same subject, is he speaking evil of the Lord's annointed, or is he defending the Lord's anointed?Is it evil speaking to say, "Hey, I don't think you are doing that quite right." ?If the watchmen begin to slumber, should we let them sleep or try to arise and awaken their faculties?I quoted Joseph Smith on the subject of criticizing leaders. As I said with his reasoning joseph would be a brethrenite 1
JLHPROF Posted June 5, 2015 Posted June 5, 2015 It is a super duper secret temple one about speaking evil about certain people. Which shouldn't be applied just to our leaders, but to every endowed member. 2
BookofMormonLuvr Posted June 5, 2015 Posted June 5, 2015 (edited) I quoted Joseph Smith on the subject of criticizing leaders. As I said with his reasoning joseph would be a brethreniteSo you believe that Joseph taught that we should never criticize church leaders whether of not they are teaching true principles or not. I love all you TBM's, but I am starting to feel I am glad I got out of the organizational structure when I did. Loyalty above truth is not how I roll. Edited June 5, 2015 by BookofMormonLuvr
The Nehor Posted June 5, 2015 Posted June 5, 2015 Which shouldn't be applied just to our leaders, but to every endowed member.Not sure about that but fortunately it no longer applies in this case at all.
The Nehor Posted June 5, 2015 Posted June 5, 2015 So you believe that Joseph taught that we should never criticize church leaders whether of not they are teaching true principles or not. I love all our TBM's, but I am starting to feel I am glad I got out of the organization when I did. Loyalty above truth is not how I roll. It is actually more about humility about the level of truth you actually have. 2
Avatar4321 Posted June 5, 2015 Posted June 5, 2015 So you believe that Joseph taught that we should never criticize church leaders whether of not they are teaching true principles or not. I love all you TBM's, but I am starting to feel I am glad I got out of the organizational structure when I did. Loyalty above truth is not how I roll. Where aren't they teaching true principles?You're creating a false dichotomy. It's not a choice between loyalty to God above truth. God is truth. Loyalty to Him is loyalty to truth
why me Posted June 5, 2015 Posted June 5, 2015 (edited) In many circumstances, in the United States at least, employees have a legal right to vent about their work, their job, and even use frowned upon language on social media. Employers that fire or otherwise discipline employees for this can find themselves in trouble. That said, I understand the motives for employers trying to reign in employees' off duty social media conduct -- they're trying to protect their brand. If the Church wants to operate and been seen as just a corporation, then I can understand cracking down on member's online activity. But I think the Church is more than that. I also think the Church is strong enough to survive a few members here and there publicly voicing unorthodox opinions and beliefs. And while the Catholic church and mainline Protestant churchs may not tolerate pastors and priets going to far astray, they generally don't excommunicate rank and file members for they type of apostasy the LDS Church seems to be cracking down on. For a while, the Catholic church was cracking down on priests who taught liberation theology, some were censored, and I believe one was excommunicated. However, I'm not aware of anylay member being disciplined for publicly supporting liberation theology. Can we expect to see the Catholic Church excommunicate Rick Santorum now? http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/06/02/rick-santorum-pope-climat_n_7498768.htmlI think that we know that employers can fire employees who harm the brand. It happens all the time and they do have the right to do so. It just happened at Subway and at Starbucks, not to mention other estabishments. No, the church is not a corporation but it must also have to protect the community of members against harmful members who take liberities about being critical about leaders and doctrine. To be of one mind is what saint paul taught. Why? Because without such harmony the church could fracture from within and have contention. The catholic church automatically excommunicates people who have had an abortion, remarry after a divorce etc. And these people cannot take the communion. For example,from a catholic website : Full QuestionHaving an abortion means automatic excommunication from the Church. Are there other sins that carry this penalty?AnswerYes. In the 1983 Code of Canon Law (CIC) eight other sins carry the penalty of automatic excommunication: apostasy, heresy, schism (CIC 1364:1), violating the sacred species (CIC 1367), physically attacking the pope (CIC 1370:1), sacramentally absolving an accomplice in a sexual sin (CIC 1378:1), consecrating a bishop without authorization (CIC 1382), and directly violating the seal of confession (1388:1).Apostasy is the total repudiation of the Christian faith. Heresy is the obstinate doubt or denial, after baptism, of a defined Catholic doctrine. Schism is the refusal of submission to the Roman Pontiff or the refusal to be in communion with members of the Church who are in communion with him (CIC 751).Violation of the sacred species is the throwing away the consecrated species of Christ's body or blood or the taking or retaining of them for a sacrilegious purpose (CIC 1367).Physically attacking the pope is self-explanatory, as are absolving an accomplice in a sexual sin and consecrating a bishop without authorization from the Vatican.A direct violation of the seal of confession is one in which both the penitent and the penitent's sin can easily be determined by the confessor's words or behavior. Again, the penalty of automatic excommunication does not apply if no one perceives the disclosure (CIC 1330).Automatic excommunication for abortion (CIC 1398) applies not only to the woman who has the abortion, but to "all those who commit this crime with knowledge of the penalty attached, and [this] includes those accomplices without whose help the crime would not have been committed" (Evangelium Vitae 62).No one is automatically excommunicated for any offense if, without any fault of his own, he was unaware that he was violating a law (CIC 1323:2) or that a penalty was attached to the law (CIC 1324:1:9). The same applies if one was a minor, had the imperfect use of reason, was forced through grave or relatively grave fear, was forced through serious inconvenience, or in certain other circumstances (CIC 1324). http://www.catholic.com/quickquestions/apart-from-abortion-are-there-other-sins-that-incur-automatic-excommunication But of course these cases do not necessarily make the headlines but all know that the excommunication exists. Most churches have something to protect its members. Any comments? Edited June 5, 2015 by why me
BookofMormonLuvr Posted June 5, 2015 Posted June 5, 2015 Where aren't they teaching true principles?You're creating a false dichotomy. It's not a choice between loyalty to God above truth. God is truth. Loyalty to Him is loyalty to truthYou don't even see it, do you?You have conflated loyalty to God with loyalty to church leaders.I absolutely agree that there is no choice between loyalty to God or or loyalty to truth. I just disagree that loyalty to God and truth automatically assumes loyalty to church leaders.
Calm Posted June 5, 2015 Posted June 5, 2015 So we can't trust anything he says, because he likes a different location setting theory for the BofM than you do?Kind of a streeeetch... You apparently did not notice that I did not criticize him for his choice of location, but for use of Wayne May who is very problematic due to his promotion of forgeries. Did you actually read what I said or just phase out after noticing the label "Heartland"? The forgery issue was one easy example that I assumed would be well known enough there would not be needed additional information to discuss. I am not suggesting others not trust him, I was saying why I don't trust him in general, provide one specific example. Again I am leery of accepting his account as fully accurate because in the topics that I have knowledge of I see him over inflating the positive stuff and underinflating or ignoring the negative. You can choose to trust his accuracy in relating events if you want. I am simply explaining why I don't. 3
Avatar4321 Posted June 5, 2015 Posted June 5, 2015 You don't even see it, do you?You have conflated loyalty to God with loyalty to church leaders.I absolutely agree that there is no choice between loyalty to God or or loyalty to truth. I just disagree that loyalty to God and truth automatically assumes loyalty to church leaders.The Lord has asked us to sustain our leaders. How can you be loyal to Him and not do that?Look at David and Saul. Saul was tying to kill him and he was still loyal to the leader the Lord placed over him.
Avatar4321 Posted June 5, 2015 Posted June 5, 2015 The way we treat the Lords servants reflects alot on how we treat the Lord. The scriptures are clear about that. 1
BookofMormonLuvr Posted June 5, 2015 Posted June 5, 2015 It is actually more about humility about the level of truth you actually have.So if you notice something amiss you are just being prideful?
Calm Posted June 5, 2015 Posted June 5, 2015 If he is fully supporting what Joseph taught One can debate whether or not he is actually fully supporting what Joseph taught or just what he wants Joseph to have taught. An example is that Waterman claims that Joseph did not teach plural marriage and was not involved in that at all. He is dependent primarily on the Prices' work for this. He takes it to the point if I understand him correctly that Brigham Young usurped the succession by killing Samuel Smith by poison. Got to go now, may or may not come back to this later. 2
BookofMormonLuvr Posted June 5, 2015 Posted June 5, 2015 The Lord has asked us to sustain our leaders. How can you be loyal to Him and not do that?Look at David and Saul. Saul was tying to kill him and he was still loyal to the leader the Lord placed over him.Oh my. You might want to re-read David's desert exploits running from Saul.I am afraid what folks are capable of with that kind of devotion to mortal men. 1
The Nehor Posted June 5, 2015 Posted June 5, 2015 So if you notice something amiss you are just being prideful? No, I notice things amiss all the time in all areas of my life. I divide them between those I am responsible for, those where I should use influence I have to correct, those where I should tell someone who actually is responsible, and those I should leave alone. The apostles being off-base would definitely fall under the last category. Then again I do not consider them to be off. I do hope that if I ever become an apostate I pick a more novel approach. Deciding that the church was once right but the current leaders are off the rails is so popular and overused it has become an incredibly dull cliche. 4
Avatar4321 Posted June 5, 2015 Posted June 5, 2015 So if you notice something amiss you are just being prideful?First, what exactly is amiss? No one seems to be able to explain that. Second, how exactly is his pride not obvious?
Avatar4321 Posted June 5, 2015 Posted June 5, 2015 Oh my. You might want to re-read David's desert exploits running from Saul.I am afraid what folks are capable of with that kind of devotion to mortal men.So instead of looking at the scriptures you feel the need to insult.It's not devotion to mortal men. It's devotion to God. It takes quite a bit of faith to submit to mortal men who have authority over us. But its what God has commanded us to do. 2
Avatar4321 Posted June 5, 2015 Posted June 5, 2015 No, I notice things amiss all the time in all areas of my life. I divide them between those I am responsible for, those where I should use influence I have to correct, those where I should tell someone who actually is responsible, and those I should leave alone. The apostles being off-base would definitely fall under the last category. Then again I do not consider them to be off. I do hope that if I ever become an apostate I pick a more novel approach. Deciding that the church was once right but the current leaders are off the rails is so popular and overused it has become an incredibly dull cliche.Especially when they ignore Joseph saying the same thing they don't like hearing modern leaders saying. 3
BookofMormonLuvr Posted June 5, 2015 Posted June 5, 2015 First, what exactly is amiss? No one seems to be able to explain that.Second, how exactly is his pride not obvious?He explains what he believes is amiss. Just because you don't agree doesn't mean he is incorrect.Often, when one disagrees with another, they view the other as prideful- I believe that is what we have between you and Rock.
BookofMormonLuvr Posted June 5, 2015 Posted June 5, 2015 So instead of looking at the scriptures you feel the need to insult.It's not devotion to mortal men. It's devotion to God. It takes quite a bit of faith to submit to mortal men who have authority over us. But its what God has commanded us to do.I am sorry if you took it as an insult, but David didn't exactly sit at Saul's feet hanging on his every word and following him slavishly.
Avatar4321 Posted June 5, 2015 Posted June 5, 2015 He explains what he believes is amiss. Just because you don't agree doesn't mean he is incorrect.Often, when one disagrees with another, they view the other as prideful- I believe that is what we have between you and Rock.I've asked several times and no one has been able to provide a single citation or quote to what is supposedly amiss. Yet we are supposed to just accept that something is? Why?I disagree with plenty of people without pride being involved. Someone who is being humble does not laugh at the counsel to repent when given. And that's just one of many examples that have been presented in the thread. I also never said David was following slavishly at sails feet. I said he recognized and remained loyal to him despite being completely justified in killing him. He recognized that Saul was the Lords anointed and defended him even at risk of his own life despite the evils Saul visited upon him.We have the record of dispensation after dispensation falling from the truth. Why? Because they reject the living oracles. This dispensation will be different because there will be a people who are listening when Christ comes. We can either be part of that group or cut ourselves off from them at our own peril.
The Nehor Posted June 5, 2015 Posted June 5, 2015 He explains what he believes is amiss. Just because you don't agree doesn't mean he is incorrect.Often, when one disagrees with another, they view the other as prideful- I believe that is what we have between you and Rock. And if Saul held all the priesthood keys on the earth at the time that would mean something.
Coreyb Posted June 5, 2015 Posted June 5, 2015 To bad he didn't follow the example of Jesus by giving proper obedience to his priesthood leaders even when he thought they were wrong...... Wait?
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